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Yogiri, 1-A possibly high 1-A

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Ovy7 said:
As for the Tegmark Multiverse, is this the only piece of evidence?



Because IMO it's not anywhere close to enough proof to validate a higher tier, it's just a vague mention of a concept.

Edit: I don't see why The Downstreamers are use as an example here. Anyone can go and read the scans on the profiles - the scans are extremely specific, to the point of breaking down that reality is math and the Ultimate Manifold are all possible universes based on mathematics.

Meanwhile, the above quote just namedrops Ultimate Assemble without any context or explanations of what it means in-universe.
Click to expand...
Finally someone who brought up this issue other than me, really thank you.
 
Once I am home, I will apply the changes. Tho, I would like to request not to create any derailment.
 
Going to do a wiki-wide revision to downgrade no matter how many dimensions to Low 1-A and fix the Tiering FAQ, so I advise you not to change it since I already wrote the thread (but have yet to post it).
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
Going to do a wiki-wide revision to downgrade no matter how many dimensions to Low 1-A and fix the Tiering FAQ, so I advise you not to change it since I already wrote the thread (but have yet to post it).
Click to expand...
It doesn't really matter that you have it made. Get it accepted and then undo changes. Especially with something as controversial as that, we're not pausing revisions for stuff that isn't clear cut.
 
Planck69 said:
Read the original post, a couple of pages and some key contributions, notably Elizhaa's and for now, I'll have to agree with them. I can see this as a decent argument for 1-A but anything higher needs significantly more proof to it.
Click to expand...
What do you and all other staff members here think about Ovy7's counterpoints? I think that they seem to make sense at least.
 
Oh I forget to request from a content moderator to open the profile
 
I am personally fine with elizhaa's interpretation for that fact that author trying to convey and even in novel that reality is nothing more than set of nature's (that even includes nature of space to contain Dimensions) which may or may not present in any other Universe/reality if may in this Universe/reality, I would agree that it's not enough for type 4 multiverse but I wouldn't deny that in irl theories, this is one of specific cases that are "only" related to Type 4 multiverse, we don't see that kind of variation in structures in type 3 multiverse, not in Type 2 nor in Type 1, not atleast where space itself cannot have it's very property of Dimensions but considering it's a fiction the arguements can be made that it's just special kind of multiverse made within fiction itself by author but then we shouldn't be ignoring that author himself has named a irl theory that have these structures already for us to make up smth by ourselves, and that is "Ultimate ensemble" or Type 4. I do not have any doubts on its validity anymore for myself.
 
Antvasima said:
What do you and all other staff members here think about Ovy7's counterpoints? I think that they seem to make sense at least.
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I've read them and while they're pretty solid points, I feel that between the fact that no dimensional stacking can reach Yogiri's true self and the other supporting points, it's decent grounds for 1-A regardless.
 
My one friend gave me more of context on this and had it translated by someone;

The world is inside the heavenly bodies, and the heavenly bodies are inside the "sea. The "sea" is vast, and there are innumerable sky panels, but it is not difficult to imagine that there are even more outer worlds. 　Outside of the world, there is another outside, and an outside that includes these outside. A nested structure in which worlds with even different basic laws are intricately intertwined. It seems that such a thing is the world as a whole. 　I say "seems" because there is no way to confirm everything. 　Nevertheless, there is something that is considered to be everything. This is the extent of the awareness of the highest level of intelligent life that exists in these worlds. For convenience, we call it the ultimate Set world. 　Each of these worlds cannot represent all of them in a unified manner, as some have similar basic laws and some have completely different ones. 　In other words, what is exceptional in one world may be quite natural in another world, but there is an event that is an exception in all worlds among such exceptions. 　It is simply called an "exception. There is no special name for it, it is just recognized as such in context. They are so few and far between that there is no need to name them.
　Goddess. A female being among the gods. It is strange that the highest intelligence that creates and rules the world has a gender that is characteristic of only a few creatures in a particular world. However, this could be explained by something similar to the strong anthropic principle. 　In other words, God in the ultimate set world is such a thing. The ultimate Set world is a group of worlds convenient for God with such characteristics, or to put it another way, it is observed by such beings, and the existence of God with both male and female genders is the basic premise of these worlds.
Click to expand...

The world's with different laws, physics, elements, exceptions, unrelated, nature and entirely different set of laws and nature rather than equivalent set with different elements and direct name dropping type 4 multiverse.

It is evidently Type 4 to my surprise just given the novel as far as I am aware.
 
Elizhaa said:
On the question's point, sites rules is about social media but the question was done on an official site so it doesn't even apply by technically to the wiki. Also, leading questions are yes or no answers. An elaborating response should be sufficient to prove the answer is a serious response.
  • Do not pester or harass the authors of various works on social media about versus debating or character statistics. They are often bombarded by numerous questions from fans, and thus are rarely interested in giving a serious response. In addition, the statements they give to appease users are often contradictory to the feats in the stories of the works they have written. Thus, it is frowned upon to bother them over these topics.
Click to expand...
You are failing to realize that the question is a yes or no question,
the question is "Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimension? for example no matter how many dimension is stacked, you cannot reach him"
This question can be answered by, "Yes" or "No".
The author is not a battleboarder and his reply was this
"Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another.
If there is such a set of various universes, ...... well, well, Yogiri can ignore all of those things."
Even the reply itself is not so clear

I am fine with the Ultimate Ensemble thing, but the Ultimate ensemble is mentioned just once with no more context later to it, and based on this question which I find to be a battleboarder goading the author in his direction. Together if both are valid, they are okay for 1-A. but take each one of them alone, with both shaky, they should not be

Also, the author reply here, is it possible to send all chapter or the chapter where Ultimate Set was mentioned
 
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PrinceofPein said:
You are failing to realize that the question is a yes or no question,
the question is "Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimension? for example no matter how many dimension is stacked, you cannot reach him"
This question can be answered by, "Yes" or "No".
The author is not a battleboarder and his reply was this
"Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another.
If there is such a set of various universes, ...... well, well, Yogiri can ignore all of those things."
Even the reply itself is not so clear

I am fine with the Ultimate Ensemble thing, but the Ultimate ensemble is mentioned just once with no more context later to it, and based on this question which I find to be a battleboarder goading the author in his direction. Together if both are valid, they are okay for 1-A. but take each one of them alone, with both shaky, they should not be

Also, the author reply here, is it possible to send all chapter or the chapter where Ultimate Set was mentioned
Click to expand...
The author reply contextually match with what has been established in the novel, tho. As you can look above in my comment. So I doubt it's just answering smth w/o knowing what author is talking about and his position does taken respectful by the community and he don't really bother with answering any question and have ignored many of them.
 
Reiner said:
The author reply contextually match with what has been established in the novel, tho. As you can look above in my comment. So I doubt it's just answering smth w/o knowing what author is talking about and his position does taken respectful and he don't really bother with answering any question and have ignored many of them.
Click to expand...
Your scan above talked about God being the ultimate set world, which type of God? since it was a plural statement.
Is it just Yogiri true form or gods like UEG or gods below them?
Since obviously none of this gods based on their feats can qualify for 1-A, except Yogiri true form since he has no anti-feat
 
YungManzi said:
I'm pretty sure this is the reason why it's being used in conjunction with the infinite dimensions QnA, which is supposed to be the supporting evidence.
Click to expand...

Infinite dimensions have 0 to do with the Type 4 multiverse. Even a Type 1 multiverse can have infinite dimensions. A Type 4 Multiverse is where everything in it is based on mathematics, and every mathematical principle and possibility can be mapped on a cosmological scale. You need concrete evidence that the multiverse is based on mathematics and all its possibilities (like how The Downstreamers' multiverse is, to continue with the example provided by Elizhaa) for it to qualify for Type 4.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Your scan above talked about God being the ultimate set world, which type of God? since it was a plural statement.
Is it just Yogiri true form or gods like UEG or gods below them?
Since obviously none of this gods based on their feats can qualify for 1-A, except Yogiri true form since he has no anti-feat
Click to expand...
I think that scan rather states about how ultimate ensemble have a group of worlds that is convenient for God's to have such characteristics that is of few in those particular worlds and observe them, not that they're world themselves. Given description by that author to have worlds with entire different property that is common sense to us (space with no property of Dimensions) is indeed present in novel.
Ovy7 said:
Infinite dimensions have 0 to do with the Type 4 multiverse. Even a Type 1 multiverse can have infinite dimensions. A Type 4 Multiverse is where everything in it is based on mathematics, and every mathematical principle and possibility can be mapped on a cosmological scale. You need concrete evidence that the multiverse is based on mathematics and all its possibilities (like how The Downstreamers' multiverse is, to continue with the example provided by Elizhaa) for it to qualify for Type 4.
Click to expand...
I think it's not really about "every mathematics" as it's just end up on how far mathematics is developed in the verse, it's more of abstract mathematics. For possibilities, it's the demand for each type of multiverse but that rather not differentiate on the lvl that Type 4 does where entire realities can be so vary to our common sense.

As far as I can see, the kind of variation and cosmological structure it has mentioned and name dropping the type 4 multiverse, it qualifies.
 
My point is not that it follows Type 4 multiverse "accurately", we have Type 3 multiverse being followed by many fictional stories but yet not give them High 1B for that, my point is, the answer by author definitely match the context of the verse, has been supported and so, shouldn't be disregarded or ignore it, he is not spouting anything by himself without it being supported in the novel. The structure to have no property of Dimensions and lacks Dimensions entirely (a kind of structure that is one of reason for type 4 multiverse to scale so high), has been stated to exist by author, so it should if novel allows the establishment for them to exist (Type 4).
 
Reiner said:
I think it's not really about "every mathematics" as it's just end up on how far mathematics is developed in the verse, it's more of abstract mathematics. For possibilities, it's the demand for each type of multiverse but that rather not differentiate on the lvl that Type 4 does where entire realities can be so vary to our common sense.

As far as I can see, the kind of variation and cosmological structure it has mentioned and name dropping the type 4 multiverse, it qualifies.
Click to expand...

If you are trying to base a tier on an actual IRL cosmological theorem, then it MUST abide by it. No ifs or buts. The entire point of Type 4 is that reality itself is a mathematical structure. For now, nothing here qualifies for a Type 4 multiverse (different laws of physics and all of that can also be found in a Type 2 multiverse).
 
Every cosmology is a mathematical structure if you look from that perspective. And no, you don't need to fully abide by it. Alone the author hinting it is enough to recognize its existence.

I feel this is nitpicking and dragging further. No new points has been made and all of them are addressed.
 
Ovy7 said:
If you are trying to base a tier on an actual IRL cosmological theorem, then it MUST abide by it. No ifs or buts. The entire point of Type 4 is that reality itself is a mathematical structure. For now, nothing here qualifies for a Type 4 multiverse (different laws of physics and all of that can also be found in a Type 2 multiverse).
Click to expand...
Every type of multiverse is a mathematical structure, Ovy. Take it Type 1, 2, 3 or perhaps 4. My point is, even if it doesn't contain every possible structure (as per your take I will go with), it does have pre establishment for structures too vary in nature than type 1,2,3 to exist and so, no reason to disregard author statement as it goes in hand with hand for what has been established and the very reason for it to be 1-A has been given with such structure specified by author.
Reiner said:
My point is not that it follows Type 4 multiverse "accurately", we have Type 3 multiverse being followed by many fictional stories but yet not give them High 1B for that, my point is, the answer by author definitely match the context of the verse, has been supported and so, shouldn't be disregarded or ignore it, he is not spouting anything by himself without it being supported in the novel. The structure to have no property of Dimensions and lacks Dimensions entirely (a kind of structure that is one of reason for type 4 multiverse to scale so high), has been stated to exist by author, so it should if novel allows the establishment for them to exist (Type 4).
Click to expand...
 
Ovy7 said:
If you are trying to base a tier on an actual IRL cosmological theorem, then it MUST abide by it. No ifs or buts. The entire point of Type 4 is that reality itself is a mathematical structure. For now, nothing here qualifies for a Type 4 multiverse (different laws of physics and all of that can also be found in a Type 2 multiverse).
Click to expand...
In fact, I think 1A is applicable with 1 or 2 very small proofs, but it seems insufficient to me with its current state. 1A will always be a wobble for me unless we get at least a word like a mathematical theory or a mathematical universe or something like that.
 
Since nothing is really addressed, I will be applying the changes once I am home
 
AKUTO123 said:
In fact, I think 1A is applicable with 1 or 2 very small proofs, but it seems insufficient to me with its current state. 1A will always be a wobble for me unless we get at least a word like a mathematical theory or a mathematical universe or something like that.
Click to expand...
Every structure there exist is mathematical. Space, Dimensions, even a card in your hand that you maybe playing with. It's absolutely unnecessary.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Every cosmology is a mathematical structure if you look from that perspective.
Click to expand...
Yes, but Type 4 contains every mathematical structure. Not just one like the other types of multiverse:

Our Mathematical Universe - Max Tegmark said:
Whereas all the parallel universes at Levels I, II and III obey the same fundamental mathematical equations (describing quantum mechanics, inɻation, etc.), Level IV parallel universes dance to the tunes of different equations, corresponding to different mathematical structures.
Click to expand...

ImmortalDread said:
And no, you don't need to fully abide by it. Alone the author hinting it is enough to recognize its existence.
Click to expand...
To my knowledge, we have never allowed this to give tiers based on a few namedrops and "the author hinting at it". It always required concrete evidence.

ImmortalDread said:
I feel this is nitpicking and dragging further. No new points has been made and all of them are addressed.
Click to expand...

You can feel however you want, I still stand by what I've said even if it doesn't change the course of the thread.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Don't. Wait for Elizhaa response to the points Pain brought up.
Click to expand...
I think you need to ping him with the message post if he did not get notified, tho I doubt pains message really addressed much. But alright.

I will wait one day more, if nothing really brought in the table, then I am going to apply it. Ngl, 4 pages of really back and forth arguments and some weird made up new policies or even theories idk.
 
PrinceofPein said:
You are failing to realize that the question is a yes or no question,
the question is "Is the true form of Yogiri beyond the concept of dimension? for example no matter how many dimension is stacked, you cannot reach him"
This question can be answered by, "Yes" or "No".
The author is not a battleboarder and his reply was this
"Dimensions, etc. are elements in one universe and may not exist in another.
If there is such a set of various universes, ...... well, well, Yogiri can ignore all of those things."
Even the reply itself is not so clear

I am fine with the Ultimate Ensemble thing, but the Ultimate ensemble is mentioned just once with no more context later to it, and based on this question which I find to be a battleboarder goading the author in his direction. Together if both are valid, they are okay for 1-A. but take each one of them alone, with both shaky, they should not be

Also, the author reply here, is it possible to send all chapter or the chapter where Ultimate Set was mentioned
Click to expand...
@Elizhaa just in case, thoughts?
 
Ovy7 said:
Yes, but Type 4 contains every mathematical structure. Not just one like the other types of multiverse:
Click to expand...
This is not my point. This is irrelevant.
Ovy7 said:
To my knowledge, we have never allowed this to give tiers based on a few namedrops and "the author hinting at it". It always required concrete evidence.
Click to expand...
And there are concrete evidences with absolutely no contradiction to the story. This point has been addressed before 3 pages.
Ovy7 said:
You can feel however you want, I still stand by what I've said even if it doesn't change the course of the ththread
Click to expand...
Sure but all those are not new and has been addressed previously
 
Also, had Ultima commented here? I think his input would be extremely invaluable considering his extensive mathematical knowledge.
 
He can comment if he wanted. The thread has been concluded with other experts.
 
Reiner said:
Every structure there exist is mathematical. Space, Dimensions, even a card in your hand that you maybe playing with. It's absolutely unnecessary.
Click to expand...
Well, you say that the worlds mentioned are mathematical worlds. but why do you say that, what is the context for this in the novel, it has to provide me with something from the novel for me to believe that there is a tegmark multiverse that claims that everything is mathematics. anyway the "possible worlds" comment may be used for ultimate seth, the only thing that supports it in my eyes
 
AKUTO123 said:
Well, you say that the worlds mentioned are mathematical worlds. but why do you say that, what is the context for this in the novel, it has to provide me with something from the novel for me to believe that there is a tegmark multiverse that claims that everything is mathematics. anyway the "possible worlds" comment may be used for ultimate seth, the only thing that supports it in my eyes
Click to expand...
This type of request is really negative, you need an evidence for dimension or space being mathematical?

This becomes really derailing right now.
 
Maybe it's already proven that universes are mathematical universes and fit the ultimate set or that universes already have mathematical structures, but I'm not a follower of the series so I don't know.
 
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