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Damn this guy really has something against Yhwach lol
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Yhwach's Power Nullification
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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Yhwach kissed him on the lips when he was a boy
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If your going to claim it is, at least actually explain why it is so you dont come off looking like a troll no offense.
But anyway, it isnt evidence. A ghost seeing another ghost is obvious as both are exactly the same as each other, it has nothing to do with perceptive abilities. And this is especially true when your a ghost thats entering an environment thats 100% spiritual based. This is the reason why a normal human with low reiryoku was able to see Aizen in the soul society because he was also Reishi at that point, in a world thats 100% reishi.
But anyway, it isnt evidence. A ghost seeing another ghost is obvious as both are exactly the same as each other, it has nothing to do with perceptive abilities. And this is especially true when your a ghost thats entering an environment thats 100% spiritual based. This is the reason why a normal human with low reiryoku was able to see Aizen in the soul society because he was also Reishi at that point, in a world thats 100% reishi.
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@Kukui
You realise that everything in SS amd HM is invisible to humans right? Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other. So your ridiculous point of their invisibility only working in the WotL is just that, ridiculous. Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?
And can a mod close this thread already? The question was answered days ago and at this point its just users repeating the exact same things at each other.
You realise that everything in SS amd HM is invisible to humans right? Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other. So your ridiculous point of their invisibility only working in the WotL is just that, ridiculous. Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?
And can a mod close this thread already? The question was answered days ago and at this point its just users repeating the exact same things at each other.
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>Because those invisible powers are only invisible in one setting: the world of the living. And Yhwach has no feats of using the Almighty to negate those powers when they're actually invisible. He only has feats of negating them when within the Soul Society (and Hueco Mundo by extension), where these powers are used 100% visibly in these spiritually based worlds.
In other words, just because Yhwach can negate the powers of bleachverse doesnt mean he can negate them when they are invisible in the world of the living. Feats trump statement and Yhwach has never negated these powers when used invisibly in the living world.
Okay,
Dude, I'm talking about Non-physical powers, not invisible powers. Non-physical powers aren't visible, ever.
The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.
Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.
So this point about Yhwach's invisibility is absolutely pointless to the argument.
>And Ichibe's conceptual manipulation is done by using Ichimonji's black ink to splatter someone with it and re-write their name. It is absolutely not invisible. The effects are, the power itself isnt. Yhwach's Almighty gained dominion over the ink to negate the inks power in general by turning Ichibe's ink over to his side, hence why when Yhwach's Almighty activated the ink just slid off.
The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.
Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation for a reason - he's power is to dicate names, and he does that with his ink, but his ink isn't what is changing names, it's the power.
That's why when Yhwach "opened his eyes", and negated the Ichibe's power - The name on Yhwach's body was removed and the Ink fell off his body - the power holding it to Yhwach had faded - said power being a non-physical force.
>I dont know why your complaining when thats exactly how this wikia works and has always worked. Someone doesnt need to prove a negative, but someone does need to prove a positive. You can only prove what somethings happened, not what something didnt happen.
I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.
Said definition being that the person making the initiating claim, needs to back up that claim with proof.
And just because that is how "something has always been done" does not mean that said something can't be complained about and changed.
This wiki has done a lot of changing and has endured many large renovations in all of its aspects in just the two years that I have been here, I can't even imagine on how it was before I arrived.
In other words, just because Yhwach can negate the powers of bleachverse doesnt mean he can negate them when they are invisible in the world of the living. Feats trump statement and Yhwach has never negated these powers when used invisibly in the living world.
Okay,
Dude, I'm talking about Non-physical powers, not invisible powers. Non-physical powers aren't visible, ever.
The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.
Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.
So this point about Yhwach's invisibility is absolutely pointless to the argument.
>And Ichibe's conceptual manipulation is done by using Ichimonji's black ink to splatter someone with it and re-write their name. It is absolutely not invisible. The effects are, the power itself isnt. Yhwach's Almighty gained dominion over the ink to negate the inks power in general by turning Ichibe's ink over to his side, hence why when Yhwach's Almighty activated the ink just slid off.
The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.
Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation for a reason - he's power is to dicate names, and he does that with his ink, but his ink isn't what is changing names, it's the power.
That's why when Yhwach "opened his eyes", and negated the Ichibe's power - The name on Yhwach's body was removed and the Ink fell off his body - the power holding it to Yhwach had faded - said power being a non-physical force.
>I dont know why your complaining when thats exactly how this wikia works and has always worked. Someone doesnt need to prove a negative, but someone does need to prove a positive. You can only prove what somethings happened, not what something didnt happen.
I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.
Said definition being that the person making the initiating claim, needs to back up that claim with proof.
And just because that is how "something has always been done" does not mean that said something can't be complained about and changed.
This wiki has done a lot of changing and has endured many large renovations in all of its aspects in just the two years that I have been here, I can't even imagine on how it was before I arrived.
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I misread that. I admit.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
But that's not how that works - Reshi is inherently invisible - being in the Soul Soceity just means that everything is inherently invisible - which makes everything visible.
And are trying to say that Yhwach can't see invisible beings if he's in the World of the Living? Every Qunicy can see Shinigami and Hollows - Yhwach as their progenitor and the Son of the Soul King is no different.
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Kukui. Here's another way to explain it.
Yhwach doesn't just see into the future with his eyes though. He sees the events themselves, the actions they are taking, not what is visible to the eye but what is HAPPENING.
It's not him seeing shit physically, but understanding the events as they happen as a nigh omniscient being would— hence the name "The Almighty". "Seeing" means "witnessing the events of the future" and gaining the information from that perception rather than looking at it alone with Naked eyes. Isn't that why he was able to affect Ichibe's conceptual power? It wasn't JUST the ink that he nullified, it was the invisible effect of it. Yhwach couldn't "see" the concept of his name being changed physically, and they already went over how he even affected Kyoka Suigetsu, which isn't "visible" either due to illusions, yeah? But I don't know bleach super duper well, but that's what i'm Getting.
Yhwach doesn't just see into the future with his eyes though. He sees the events themselves, the actions they are taking, not what is visible to the eye but what is HAPPENING.
It's not him seeing shit physically, but understanding the events as they happen as a nigh omniscient being would— hence the name "The Almighty". "Seeing" means "witnessing the events of the future" and gaining the information from that perception rather than looking at it alone with Naked eyes. Isn't that why he was able to affect Ichibe's conceptual power? It wasn't JUST the ink that he nullified, it was the invisible effect of it. Yhwach couldn't "see" the concept of his name being changed physically, and they already went over how he even affected Kyoka Suigetsu, which isn't "visible" either due to illusions, yeah? But I don't know bleach super duper well, but that's what i'm Getting.
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As I said to Kukui, Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation - the way he uses this power is through his Ink.Link Eternal said:
The ink isn't what is changing the name - it's the power behind the ink.
That's why when Yhwach erases the name Kuroari - the ink falls off his skin, because the power holding it there disappeared.
And you can tell he's not negating the ink because he can't. Yhwach can't negate physcial forces or objects. He's negating the power behind the ink.
Said power is an non-physical force.
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Also, everyone here needs to calm down and chill - seriously.
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Yeah, like, a power can have an abstract effect but need a physical medium to work. You don't have to erase the physical medium to nullify the power that is imbued into it. And Yhwach did that exactly— he didn't erase the ink but the abstract, imperceptible power that was imbued onto the ink. Ink Manipulation is also a power that Ichibe has, but he didn't null that useless shit.
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Thanks Amex
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>You realise that everything in SS amd HM is invisible to humans right?
To humans when they are in the world of the living? Of course.
But not when they are actually i the soul society or hueco mundo since they at that point also become reishi. You have to be converted into spiritual matter in order to enter these worlds period, the worlds themselves being invisible to humans in a Kishi based setting is irrelevant when the human needs to turn from kishi to reishi in order to even see those worlds. If you are reishi yourself, you will automatically be able to see something thats also reishi based, it has 0 thing to do with perceptive skill. Unless you want to seriously say that an ordinary everyday human has high reiryoku for being able to see a Trascendent Aizen while in the Soul Society before being reiatsu-vaporized.
>Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other.
No, that is not how this works. A ghost does not gain high perceptive abilities just by being able to see other ghosts as they are both exactly the same kind of beings. It a natural phenomena, not a skill. And in an environment thats also spiritually based will make that even easier. We dont scale perception like this and I have never even seen this be a thing until you brought this up just now.
>Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?
Because souls not being invisible to each other is, again, a natural occurrence? Of course souls are not invisible to each other because both are the same exact type of beings. Im not saying Shinigami lack invisiblity, im saying that their use of it is limited. They cant become invisible in a world or setting thats 100% made up of the same thing they're also made up of.
Thats like saying someone made of water can become "more watery" than an ocean, a body of water.
To humans when they are in the world of the living? Of course.
But not when they are actually i the soul society or hueco mundo since they at that point also become reishi. You have to be converted into spiritual matter in order to enter these worlds period, the worlds themselves being invisible to humans in a Kishi based setting is irrelevant when the human needs to turn from kishi to reishi in order to even see those worlds. If you are reishi yourself, you will automatically be able to see something thats also reishi based, it has 0 thing to do with perceptive skill. Unless you want to seriously say that an ordinary everyday human has high reiryoku for being able to see a Trascendent Aizen while in the Soul Society before being reiatsu-vaporized.
>Everyone amd everything there is invisible but isn't shown to be since everything and everyone there can percieve amd interact with each other.
No, that is not how this works. A ghost does not gain high perceptive abilities just by being able to see other ghosts as they are both exactly the same kind of beings. It a natural phenomena, not a skill. And in an environment thats also spiritually based will make that even easier. We dont scale perception like this and I have never even seen this be a thing until you brought this up just now.
>Souls were never invisible to each other so why would you use that to argue they lack invisibility?
Because souls not being invisible to each other is, again, a natural occurrence? Of course souls are not invisible to each other because both are the same exact type of beings. Im not saying Shinigami lack invisiblity, im saying that their use of it is limited. They cant become invisible in a world or setting thats 100% made up of the same thing they're also made up of.
Thats like saying someone made of water can become "more watery" than an ocean, a body of water.
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>Dude, I'm talking about Non-physical powers, not invisible powers. Non-physical powers aren't visible, ever.
If your saying they aren't visible, then your saying they're invisible powers...
>The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.
And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.
>Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.
Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.
>The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.
Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.
>I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.
I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.
Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.
If your saying they aren't visible, then your saying they're invisible powers...
>The Almighty is greater than every other power in the series, and thus all powers in the series logically should be nulled by the Almighty - that includes non-physical powers as well.
And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.
>Kyoka Suigetsu or Barragan's Time dilation for instance - these are powers that never becomes visible because they aren't physical.
Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.
>The Black Ink is a conduit, but the power itself is non-physical. The power that alters Yhwach's name to Kuroari is not able to visibly seen because it doesn't have a corporal body - it just acts through the Black Ink.
Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.
>I'm complaining because that's not the accuarate defintion of the Burden of Proof - again, look at any of the three websites I pulled a definition from in a 10 second Google search.
I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.
Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.
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And you have something against being actually respectful to people who have different views than you.The Prince of Counters said:
Which is a bad thing to have if you want to keep staying here without causing trouble.
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Yes. Yhwach specifically says that any power that he understands will turn to be on his side. And when doing that against Ichibe's ink, the ink stopped trying to change Yhwachs name when the Almighty was activated, showing that the ink itself was affected.Amexim said:
Plus why would Yhwach only effect the inks powers instead of the ink as a whole?
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Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
This^^^
And I'll end with this before I'm off to sleep:
Support of OP: Yhwach has no feat of negating an ability when he is unable to see the application of said abilities.
Opposition: Ichibe's ink isn't the ability itself, the conceptual ability is an ability only carried by the ink, but is not a property of the ink itself. Thus Yhwach negating Ichibe's concept manip is proof of Yhwach's capacity to neg powers he can't see.
Keep the debate clean people.
Good Luck, and Good Night.
This^^^
And I'll end with this before I'm off to sleep:
Support of OP: Yhwach has no feat of negating an ability when he is unable to see the application of said abilities.
Opposition: Ichibe's ink isn't the ability itself, the conceptual ability is an ability only carried by the ink, but is not a property of the ink itself. Thus Yhwach negating Ichibe's concept manip is proof of Yhwach's capacity to neg powers he can't see.
Keep the debate clean people.
Good Luck, and Good Night.
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I have to get to bed too in a bit too so im gonna end it here for tonight as well.
I'll get back to this tomorrow and any replies that possibly come.
I'll get back to this tomorrow and any replies that possibly come.
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Because you're going to need to produce more evidence when you make a claim like that. I would think it's more reasonable to assume he's targeting the qualities of the ink rather than the ink itself. You seem to be extrapolating a weakness from something with little lore favoring your position. Whether you're biased or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's what you're doing. It's far simpler and more supported to assume Yhwach is targeting the invisible trait of the ink thanks to the heavy implications of the scene— placing emphasis on the conceptual manipulation vs the ink manipulation, but let's say that's a weak way to argue an interpretation and drop the idea that you using the ink moving as evidence of you looking for a way to reinterpret the scene. Never mind how if he was manipulating the ink but not the imperceptible power and nature of the ink that he's more likely to not have it touch him or erase it or however he stops it, the conceptual manipulation of the ink, which isn't being targeted because of its imperceptible nature, would still impact him through contact. Because that's what the power does, yeah? If he was trying to null the ink, but not the invisible power the ink has, he would have avoided touching it or something, because not targeting that invisible power would make its dangerous effects still active, as before the ink was manipulated, the attack was intended to harm Yhwach. If Yhwach didn't Target this invisible power, he wouldn't have changed its effect or threat to him. But whatever.
It still doesn't change that the harder you argue against it, the more your claims seem to line up with a downgrade. To claim what you are right now is to argue that Yhwach wouldn't be able to nullify an attack because you believe he can't tell that an attack has a non-visually obvious effect to it. If Yhwach was to be attacked by my ki blast that has the ability to erase memories, but I never told him that's what happened, he couldn't nullify the memory manipulation according to you. Which is a downgrade, yeah? Not even an invisible power, but a "visible one". Which is easily explained by him being able to perceive not just what "looks" but what "is". My attack being invisible doesn't mean I didn't do it in the future. Someone with Clairvoyance like that doesn't mean they literally only "see" the future when they have future sight. They know the events of the future, including abstract ones, and we have very little reason to suspect Yhwach has a limitation like that when compared with how high tier all of the other aspects of his future sight is.
But, in this same scene, he doesn't dodge the ink, so he doesn't dodge the blast either. If he can do that with Ink, why would he need to dodge my blast. Because he can nullify the effect of the blast, not only the physical blast itself.
It still doesn't change that the harder you argue against it, the more your claims seem to line up with a downgrade. To claim what you are right now is to argue that Yhwach wouldn't be able to nullify an attack because you believe he can't tell that an attack has a non-visually obvious effect to it. If Yhwach was to be attacked by my ki blast that has the ability to erase memories, but I never told him that's what happened, he couldn't nullify the memory manipulation according to you. Which is a downgrade, yeah? Not even an invisible power, but a "visible one". Which is easily explained by him being able to perceive not just what "looks" but what "is". My attack being invisible doesn't mean I didn't do it in the future. Someone with Clairvoyance like that doesn't mean they literally only "see" the future when they have future sight. They know the events of the future, including abstract ones, and we have very little reason to suspect Yhwach has a limitation like that when compared with how high tier all of the other aspects of his future sight is.
But, in this same scene, he doesn't dodge the ink, so he doesn't dodge the blast either. If he can do that with Ink, why would he need to dodge my blast. Because he can nullify the effect of the blast, not only the physical blast itself.
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>If your saying they aren't visible, then your saying they're invisible powers...
There's a difference between something that is just invisible - and something that isn't physical.
>And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.
You can't state that The Almighty is the greatest power in the verse and also state that it can't negate hax in the same verse - those are conflicting statements.
And my god, you are such a ******* feat junkie - feats aren't the only thing that are used, you know?
Is Vegeta not a planet buster because he didn't actually blow up the planet in the Saiyan Saga? Is Super Saiyan God not a universe buster for similar reasons?
Don't be ridiculous.
>Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.
Barraggan's Age Manipulation is Time Manipulation. But I was specifically talking about the Time-field around his base form that dilatites time to slow down so that he can't have anyone sneak attack him. That's passive time slow - a non-physical power. And seeing someone being aged doesn't mean anything - Yhwach negates and understands powers, not the effects of powers.
Incorrect - we do not know exactly why KS stopped. It could have wore off, it could have been Aizen who stopped it, et cetera et cetera.
However, I never said that Yhwach negated it - I was just writing an example of an non-physical power in Bleach - not ones that Yhwach negated. Yhwach never even met Baraggan, he couldn't have negated his power.
>Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.
I already responeded to this comment
As I said to Kukui, Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation - the way he uses this power is through his Ink.
The ink isn't what is changing the name - it's the power behind the ink.
That's why when Yhwach erases the name Kuroari - the ink falls off his skin, because the power holding it there disappeared.
And you can tell he's not negating the ink because he can't. Yhwach can't negate physcial forces or objects. He's negating the power behind the ink.
Said power is an non-physical force.
And Kukui - why do you make the assumption that Yhwach understanding an ability that was not because of his vision is reason enough to say Yhwach can negate a power?
Yhwach explicitly stated that it is because of his vision that he sees all futures, and in those he futures he sees powers, and the powers which he sees, he knows, and the powers that he knows from said vision takes his side - not the powers which some one explained about in a monoluage take his side.
You are skipping the basises for Yhwach's "understanding" - his vision, for no good reason.
>I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.
Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.
No Limits Fallacy isn't a legal fallacy for obvious reason, but that doesn't make it not a real fallacy.
And using accurate descprtion is important because its accurate - settling for anything less is being facetious.
Point is, you need a logical basis for your points - whether those points are postive or negative shouldn't matter.
There's a difference between something that is just invisible - and something that isn't physical.
>And I disagree with that because the Almighty has 0 feats of negging these powers when they are used invisibly. Yhwach has only been proven to negate them when they are visibly based. Just as someone said above, the Almighty is undoubtedly the greatest power but that does not make it flawless.
You can't state that The Almighty is the greatest power in the verse and also state that it can't negate hax in the same verse - those are conflicting statements.
And my god, you are such a ******* feat junkie - feats aren't the only thing that are used, you know?
Is Vegeta not a planet buster because he didn't actually blow up the planet in the Saiyan Saga? Is Super Saiyan God not a universe buster for similar reasons?
Don't be ridiculous.
>Isnt Barragan's time hax just age manipulation? You can clearly see someone being aged. And Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is not a great example since Yhwach most definitely did not neg it. The effect of KS wore off when Yhwach rewrote his death after being killed by Ichigo.
Barraggan's Age Manipulation is Time Manipulation. But I was specifically talking about the Time-field around his base form that dilatites time to slow down so that he can't have anyone sneak attack him. That's passive time slow - a non-physical power. And seeing someone being aged doesn't mean anything - Yhwach negates and understands powers, not the effects of powers.
Incorrect - we do not know exactly why KS stopped. It could have wore off, it could have been Aizen who stopped it, et cetera et cetera.
However, I never said that Yhwach negated it - I was just writing an example of an non-physical power in Bleach - not ones that Yhwach negated. Yhwach never even met Baraggan, he couldn't have negated his power.
>Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
By the way, Ichibe explicitly explained in detail how his conceptual manipulation worked BEFORE Yhwach awakened his Almighty. Literally moments before. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ichibe allowed Yhwach to understand his abilities before activating the Almighty.
I already responeded to this comment
As I said to Kukui, Ichibe's power is Name Manipulation - the way he uses this power is through his Ink.
The ink isn't what is changing the name - it's the power behind the ink.
That's why when Yhwach erases the name Kuroari - the ink falls off his skin, because the power holding it there disappeared.
And you can tell he's not negating the ink because he can't. Yhwach can't negate physcial forces or objects. He's negating the power behind the ink.
Said power is an non-physical force.
And Kukui - why do you make the assumption that Yhwach understanding an ability that was not because of his vision is reason enough to say Yhwach can negate a power?
Yhwach explicitly stated that it is because of his vision that he sees all futures, and in those he futures he sees powers, and the powers which he sees, he knows, and the powers that he knows from said vision takes his side - not the powers which some one explained about in a monoluage take his side.
You are skipping the basises for Yhwach's "understanding" - his vision, for no good reason.
>I mean, a No Limits Fallacy isnt technically a real fallacy but we still very much so use it to stop characters powers from being wanked to oblivion. So I hardly see why not using the accurate description of a definition is any worse. But this is beside the point and it'll derail too much.
Point is, you cant prove something didnt happen, you can only prove something did happen. Its just that simple.
No Limits Fallacy isn't a legal fallacy for obvious reason, but that doesn't make it not a real fallacy.
And using accurate descprtion is important because its accurate - settling for anything less is being facetious.
Point is, you need a logical basis for your points - whether those points are postive or negative shouldn't matter.
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The affect of the ink is invisible. Not the ink itself. It's visibly just ink. Kukui himself seems to argue he only knows about the abstract aspect of it because the information was given to Yhwach. So, again, he wouldn't even be able to use that power on something he could see if he didn't know what it does. Which is a downgrade b. You said no downgrades.
And Link already understands the argument, Yhwach affected the invisible abstract power of the ink, not just the ink itself. Otherwise the ink's power would still **** him. The ink and the power aren't the same thing. The ink is the medium. And to admit that Yhwach can affect something that's intangible like a concept just because he knows it exists... Is good evidence to suggest that he doesn't need to "see" physically the effect of the powers to affect them or negate them, because he wouldn't even know where to aim his negation at or how to aim it at such an invisible and non-physical thing without him being able to understand where to do all of that. Which negates the argument presented by Kukui.
Just because you know where an invisible man is, doesn't mean you know how to stop him from punching you, is the idea. Just because Yhwach knows the power is using ink as a medium doesn't mean he can target that power. How would he do so? How would he know what to do? The fact that he can nullify it in that imperceptible state demonstrates his ability to negate powers regardless of his ability to perceive them with his naked eyes, because nullifying imperceptible powers REQUIRES him to be able to address them without sight. It proves itself.
And Link already understands the argument, Yhwach affected the invisible abstract power of the ink, not just the ink itself. Otherwise the ink's power would still **** him. The ink and the power aren't the same thing. The ink is the medium. And to admit that Yhwach can affect something that's intangible like a concept just because he knows it exists... Is good evidence to suggest that he doesn't need to "see" physically the effect of the powers to affect them or negate them, because he wouldn't even know where to aim his negation at or how to aim it at such an invisible and non-physical thing without him being able to understand where to do all of that. Which negates the argument presented by Kukui.
Just because you know where an invisible man is, doesn't mean you know how to stop him from punching you, is the idea. Just because Yhwach knows the power is using ink as a medium doesn't mean he can target that power. How would he do so? How would he know what to do? The fact that he can nullify it in that imperceptible state demonstrates his ability to negate powers regardless of his ability to perceive them with his naked eyes, because nullifying imperceptible powers REQUIRES him to be able to address them without sight. It proves itself.
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Again, Yhwach's undersanding comes from his future sight - not from him figuring the power out.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And again, this is wrong.
The ink is a conduit - it isn't the what is changing Yhwach's name, it is what is being used to write the letters to give Yhwach a new name. Essentially, it is just ink, but because of Ichibe's Name Manipulation - the ink is giving conceptual power.
The reason why this is the case is the answer to your second question - Yhwach can't negate physical forces or objects - he can't negate the ink.
What Yhwach is negating is the conceptual force empowering the ink, and withou that force - the ink doesn't stay on Yhwach's body and falls off.
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>Yhwach has never used his Almighty to foresee invisible spirits, much less null the powers of them, in the world of the living. So this point is 100% worthless here.
So what are you saying is Yhwach cannot see Hollow or shinigami in human world? Yhwach the leader of quincy, a race who go to war against shinigami and killing Hollow on daily basic in the human world cannot see an invisible spirits? Your point is indeed 100% worthless here.
So what are you saying is Yhwach cannot see Hollow or shinigami in human world? Yhwach the leader of quincy, a race who go to war against shinigami and killing Hollow on daily basic in the human world cannot see an invisible spirits? Your point is indeed 100% worthless here.
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The ink is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, Ichibe has used it on Ikomikidomoe like a millions years ago. And up until he was killed this was still in effect. And he sure as hell wasn't walking around with a body covered in ink lol.
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In fact, Warren shows that Yhwach LITERALLY refutes Kukui's claim himself. He's not limited in his perception of the future the same way Ichigo or any other person is, hence him drawing the parallel himself and refuting the idea that his ability and their ability to "see" the future are the same. He literally says his power goes BEYOND just seeing the future, which is what Kukui was trying to argue against— that is, he seems to believe Yhwach can only SEE the future with eyes and sight literally.
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>Acting through the black ink (and Ichimonji too actually) is exactly why the power itself is not invisible hough. The power of renaming targets is represented by a physical form that can be most definitely seen, the black ink. The effect of the ink is invisible but the power itself is not. The power is being used through the black ink. This is why when Yhwach awakened the Almighty the ink no longer tried attacking him because he turned the ink itself, and hence its effects, over to his side.
You are getting this wrong:
As I have said - if the ink was the power, then Yhwach wouldn't have been able to negate it because Yhwach can't negate physical forces, he can only negate powers.
The ink would be such a physical force - that's why the power behind Ichibe's Name Manipulation is his name manipulation, a non-physical conceptual force.
One which Yhwach negated.
You are getting this wrong:
- The Ink is a conduit.
- The power is the conceptual manipulation that fuels the ink.
- The effect is that the person covered in Ink is renamed.
As I have said - if the ink was the power, then Yhwach wouldn't have been able to negate it because Yhwach can't negate physical forces, he can only negate powers.
The ink would be such a physical force - that's why the power behind Ichibe's Name Manipulation is his name manipulation, a non-physical conceptual force.
One which Yhwach negated.
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Also, now that I am thinking about it.
Didn't Yhwach negate Orihime's Causality Manipulation with the Almighty as well?
Didn't Yhwach negate Orihime's Causality Manipulation with the Almighty as well?
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Anyway, goodnight @everyone.
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"The Almighty isn't the ability to "see the future". It is the power to "transform" it."
He talks like it's him who is warping the very reality in which the future exists, changing the future ITSELF which isn't just what he sees but what IS, the very events that happen irrelevant to some petty perception of what is right in front of you. The naked eye. It's not like our ability to see and affect what is in front of us. To SEE what is in front of us, even.
He talks like it's him who is warping the very reality in which the future exists, changing the future ITSELF which isn't just what he sees but what IS, the very events that happen irrelevant to some petty perception of what is right in front of you. The naked eye. It's not like our ability to see and affect what is in front of us. To SEE what is in front of us, even.
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Even someone like Ichibe can see things across all dimensions, Aizen can see and sense people within a dimesnion inside another dimension. arguing Yhwach can't see something invisible is nonsensical.
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You do make sense there
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Yhwach was gonna invade the Living World in the manga but that didn't happened because ending was rush, so...
1. If Yhwach had fought any Shinigami in the living world he can still see them because Ghost can see other Ghost and Yhwach told Uryu that he was the only Quincy alive that survive Auswhalwen while Yhwach himself is a Ghost since human bodies cannot exist in Soul Society.
2. No matter in what world Yhwach is Ghost can see other Ghost.
3. Humans cannot see or interact with the spiritual world.
1. If Yhwach had fought any Shinigami in the living world he can still see them because Ghost can see other Ghost and Yhwach told Uryu that he was the only Quincy alive that survive Auswhalwen while Yhwach himself is a Ghost since human bodies cannot exist in Soul Society.
2. No matter in what world Yhwach is Ghost can see other Ghost.
3. Humans cannot see or interact with the spiritual world.
Heavens_Feel
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I think the OP has figured out how to beat Yhwach. Fight him in the human world because apparently, he can't see anyone in bleach there.
If possible I would like to ask for this ridiculous (albeit unintentionally funny) thread closed.
If possible I would like to ask for this ridiculous (albeit unintentionally funny) thread closed.
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Actually, combing through this fight again has made me wonder something. Is Ichibe's ink actually ink? It is becoming more and more likely that he simply manifests [Black] as ink.
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