Yhwach vs The Medaka Box verse

[Agnaa]

MB's concept manip is not elaborated on, so it'd only be Type 3.

There is one time where Kumagawa says "I guess I could make it so that the concept of time never existed", and another time where Kumagawa erases colours from reality, preventing colour-based abilities from working.

I believe that's not sufficient for Type 2, and it's definitely not enough for Type 1.

 

[Nanashi]

MB's got a few things:

1. Medaka Kurokami (and Iihiko Shishime due to scaling) have:
   • A statement of being able to make a 1 in a million event happen a million times in a row.
   • Their luck is described as being able to make enemy's attacks miss vital areas, cause enemies to spare them on a whim, and to come up with winning strategies in a pinch.
   • Najimi Ajimu believes that she can't win against Medaka. This isn't because of Medaka's skills; Ajimu can trivially nullify all of Medaka's skills, she's just the sort of person who would never lose (the mention of people coming around every 1000 years is an allusion to Iihiko; the first of this group who came up 5000 years ago, and defeated every other person like this since). For emphasis, an 8-B could defeat a 3-A even with zero abilities other than this luck.
   • Their luck is vastly superior to common Abnormals.
     • A common Abnormal, when being dealt a hand of cards by someone who makes nothing stray from their ordinary chances, drew a nigh- perfect hand of 7 cards; the only difference being that one of their cards was a diamond instead of a heart. So ordinary probability nullification wouldn't do much.
2. Zenkichi Hitoyoshi (and Hanten Shiranui due to making the skill, although he'd need to add it to himself first) have the ability to nullify Medaka/Iihiko's luck through Devil Style. It nullifies any coincidence, preventing the whims of fate from interfering with a battle. When Zenkichi used this, Medaka only got 2% of the votes in an election. Earlier in the series, when this ability wasn't up, she got 98% of the votes.
3. Namanie Nienami, Fukurou Tsurubami (and Kakegae Yuzuriha due to being able to transform into anyone, including Nienami) have the ability Contradictory Conjunction.
   • It makes the impossible possible, letting characters defeat opponents stronger than them, and destroying objects too resilient for them to harm, materialising the least probable outcome.
   • Contradictory Conjunction appears to work through Devil Style and Medaka/Iihiko's luck, although the reason for this is unclear.
   • It's more effective the greater the difference in power between the two.
   • We saw it used a few times:
     1. Nienami used it to cut a giant battleship in half. While she did lose that battle, we're later told that if she used the ability to its full extent she would have won, she just decided to use it in moderation.
     2. Fukurou used it to instantly stomp Kamome Tsurubami.
     3. Kakegae, copying Nienami, used it to fight on par with Iihiko, putting them on par speed and strength wise, with each able to dodge/land/tank attacks from each other.
     4. Zenkichi, having borrowed it from Nienami, used it to fight on par with Iihiko, with each able to dodge attacks from each other. While Iihiko was still able to blow off Zenkichi's arm with one attack, Zenkichi was also able to one-shot Iihiko (bottom-right panel).

It achieves concept manip through causality manip, so resisting causality manip is sufficient to negate it.

By the way, I just read your reply better now and yeah. If Yhwach doesn't manage to deal with the Luck he's probably going to lose and they have ways to negate fate manipulation effects. But I don't know if it would work in this case, because now Yhwach's fate manipulation is in a higher scale, honestly if this is not a stomp because of 2-A bullshit, then it's a big incon.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

I'm retired, but someone hit up my old Powerpuff Girl Phone for this.

Just checking since I haven't read Bleach since it ended.
So my only question is, can someone remind me how did Yhwach lose in his verse again? Specifically, how did he lose with his Almighty at full power in this verse?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm retired, but someone hit up my old Powerpuff Girl Phone for this.

Just checking since I haven't read Bleach since it ended.
So my only question is, can someone remind me how did Yhwach lose in his verse again? Specifically, how did he lose with his Almighty at full power in this verse?

Plot Armour

 

[Purgy]

I'm retired, but someone hit up my old Powerpuff Girl Phone for this.

Just checking since I haven't read Bleach since it ended.
So my only question is, can someone remind me how did Yhwach lose in his verse again? Specifically, how did he lose with his Almighty at full power in this verse?

An arrow that he couldn't see in any future took away all his powers and then he was cut in half, though it's never explained why he was unable to see the arrow

 

[Arcker123]

Plot Armour

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

@Dread and @Purgy
Thank you both for this insight.

So, a sprinkle of Plot Armor plus the fact that an arrow that he couldn’t see in the future nor stop its trajectory from hitting him with his abundance RC powers or speed to at least dodge it, plus the fact that after getting hit by this arrow voided all his powers only to but cut in half.

He did die after all this happened to him, correct?

 

[Arcker123]

So, a sprinkle of Plot Armor

It’s not plot armor lmao.

He did die after all this happened to him, correct?

He’s the soul king rn. He’s technically in a a state akin to the one he was born in rn. He’s not really dead per say.

 

[Agnaa]

MB has no attacks that resist precog.

It does have a fair few ways of nullifying abilities (Ajimu can nullify any superpower with Life Zero, Kumagawa and Medaka can nullify abilities with Bookmaker, Iihiko nullifies all abilities, attacks, and techniques that he's seen before, as well as nullifying all superpowers, Hansode can turn abilities into other abilities or give them limitations that make them unusable, Joutou and Fukurou can de-age people to before they had their abilities, and finally, Fukurou and Kakegae can create copies of themselves, and transform themselves into other characters to get more instances of these abilities).

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that Mogura Kugurugi (and Fukurou Tsurubami, as he taught her that ability) have defensive hax that's comparable to All Fiction but without being based on Causality Manip. She essentially manipulates homophones; words that sound the same but are written differently. But in Japanese, the word meaning "to engage an enemy" (mukaeutsu) has no homophones, letting her turn it into something meaningless, making it as if the attack never happened, erasing the weapon used.

That ability isn't as versatile offensively as All Fiction (all it has is death manip if the opponent doesn't talk), but it's something.

Most of the shit posted here has just been about the MB kids; what's Yhwach's good stuff?

 

[Purgy]

Most of the shit posted here has just been about the MB kids; what's Yhwach's good stuff?

Not to sound like an ass but Yhwach's good stuff is defined pretty comprehensively on his profile, I'd just be copy pasting it from there if I was to list it all

 

[ImmortalDread]

if it is not, explain then?????

 

[Purgy]

At best it's PIS, but that's only derived from there being no definitive explanation and the fact that it's literally the definition of a deus ex machina

Most likely the arrow is acausal as it represents stillness as in not existing in the past and future and Uryu used his causality manipulation that exceeds Yhwach's The Almighty in order to make it land, but we don't know for sure

 

[ImmortalDread]

Before I get hate, bleach is one of the biggest anime with plot armour scenes, take it or leave it.
So Yhwach losing this because some random arrow took away his powers and then Ichigo cut him down, ya kinda, if you read the manga, you would see the author rushed ending tho.

At best it's PIS, but that's only derived from there being no definitive explanation and the fact that it's literally the definition of a deus ex machina

Most likely the arrow is acausal as it represents stillness as in not existing in the past and future and Uryu used his causality manipulation that exceeds Yhwach's The Almighty in order to make it land, but we don't know for sure

It could be, but no real explanation either. Hence, why I said it is plot armour, or we would not have finishing till now lol.

 

[Agnaa]

Not to sound like an ass but Yhwach's good stuff is defined pretty comprehensively on his profile, I'd just be copy pasting it from there if I was to list it all

So is MB's stuff.

But like with going through 30 MB profiles, Yhwach's page includes a fuckton of information, a lot of which isn't relevant to the fight. Having a glance at his page, I see a few paragraphs on "Reishi Manipulation", just some energy manipulation, stat amp, and forcefield creation, which isn't relevant in a fight like this. Having a glance at his P&A, I see a wall of blue text. One of the first things that my eyes landed on was "Danmaku and Enhanced Explosion Manipulation", which isn't super relevant in a fight like this.

I don't doubt that his good stuff is defined well, but it's hard to pick it out when it's stuck between 50 other abilities that don't really matter.

Even the ones which my eyes happened upon still deserve further elaboration. How would The Almighty interact with defensive abilities? Passive power null? Power mimicry? Supernatural Luck that resists nullification?

 

[Arcker123]

Is all of this debate assuming Yhwach doesn’t have Reiatsu Crush? If so what specifically does he not have?

what's Yhwach's good stuff?

Well aside from the Almighty (4D Precog and fate hax, Power null potent enough to null Type 4 concept Hax) he’s got:

• Thought based NEP and Memory hax that erases his existence from the opponents memory
• Multiple forms of Mid Godly regeneration
• 2-A type 4 immortality (As it‘s based on the Almighty)
• Literally everything he has is soul and matter Hax that seems to be above any resistance they have
• Thought based EE and Death manip
• Highly layered intang and spatial manip with X axis
• Multiple methods (And all types) of absorption
• His Reiatsu passively nulls anything that’s not luck based on the profiles (Only thing that has resistance to powernull)
• I don’t know how Medaka’s power absorption resistances work exactl, but he has multiple forms of the ability.

As Purgy said, the profile goes into way more detail then I can in a thread. The schrifts should be SBA, as they are his strongest version.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that Mogura Kugurugi (and Fukurou Tsurubami, as he taught her that ability) have defensive hax that's comparable to All Fiction but without being based on Causality Manip. She essentially manipulates homophones; words that sound the same but are written differently. But in Japanese, the word meaning "to engage an enemy" (mukaeutsu) has no homophones, letting her turn it into something meaningless, making it as if the attack never happened, erasing the weapon used.

That ability isn't as versatile offensively as All Fiction (all it has is death manip if the opponent doesn't talk), but it's something.

If it’s just going to result in death manip, Yhwach can just resurrect with the Almighty. Yhwach’s resistances to power null are all at a conceptual level. He can just give himself his attacks back anyway. It’s also listed as EE and null, both things Yhwach resists, so I’m eh on this.

Ajimu can nullify any superpower with Life Zero

I don’t see why this isn’t just resisted as i explained above.

Ajimu can nullify any superpower with Life Zero, Kumagawa and Medaka can nullify abilities with Bookmaker, Iihiko nullifies all abilities, attacks, and techniques that he's seen before, as well as nullifying all superpowers,

See above

Hansode can turn abilities into other abilities or give them limitations that make them unusable

Yhwach resists conceptual power modificaction. Don’t see why this works.

Joutou and Fukurou can de-age people to before they had their abilities

Yhwach Precogs and picks a future where this doesn’t happen. If not outright nulling it from the beginning himself with his Almighty which can null type 2 concept Hax. I doubt any of this null works on 4D Hax anyway, so the Almighty will still be viable.

Fukurou and Kakegae can create copies of themselves, and transform themselves into other characters to get more instances of these abilities)

Yhwach can too with the visionary and Yourself schrifts (Explained on profile)

Not to sound like an ass but Yhwach's good stuff is defined pretty comprehensively on his profile, I'd just be copy pasting it from there if I was to list it all

if it is not, explain then?????

Before I get hate, bleach is one of the biggest anime with plot armour scenes, take it or leave it.
So Yhwach losing this because some random arrow took away his powers and then Ichigo cut him down, ya kinda, if you read the manga, you would see the author rushed ending tho.

It could be, but no real explanation either. Hence, why I said it is plot armour, or we would not have finishing till now lol.

Pick up a book or sum

So is MB's stuff.

But like with going through 30 MB profiles, Yhwach's page includes a fuckton of information, a lot of which isn't relevant to the fight. Having a glance at his page, I see a few paragraphs on "Reishi Manipulation", just some energy manipulation, stat amp, and forcefield creation, which isn't relevant in a fight like this. Having a glance at his P&A, I see a wall of blue text. One of the first things that my eyes landed on was "Danmaku and Enhanced Explosion Manipulation", which isn't super relevant in a fight like this.

I don't doubt that his good stuff is defined well, but it's hard to pick it out when it's stuck between 50 other abilities that don't really matter.

Even the ones which my eyes happened upon still deserve further elaboration. How would The Almighty interact with defensive abilities? Passive power null? Power mimicry? Supernatural Luck that resists nullification?

:Crydo:

 

[Purgy]

So is MB's stuff.

But like with going through 30 MB profiles, Yhwach's page includes a fuckton of information, a lot of which isn't relevant to the fight. Having a glance at his page, I see a few paragraphs on "Reishi Manipulation", just some energy manipulation, stat amp, and forcefield creation, which isn't relevant in a fight like this. Having a glance at his P&A, I see a wall of blue text. One of the first things that my eyes landed on was "Danmaku and Enhanced Explosion Manipulation", which isn't super relevant in a fight like this.

I don't doubt that his good stuff is defined well, but it's hard to pick it out when it's stuck between 50 other abilities that don't really matter.

Even the ones which my eyes happened upon still deserve further elaboration. How would The Almighty interact with defensive abilities? Passive power null? Power mimicry? Supernatural Luck that resists nullification?

Well MB's stuff is spread around 20+ profiles no? I don't even know half the characters in the verse so I couldn't find most of the abilities, Yhwach's stuff is on one profile.

Yhwach isn't nullifying luck, but I don't see how luck can even remotely compare to or overcome 2-A fate manipulation

 

[Arcker123]

Yhwach also precogs and understands everything they can do from the start, does anyone in verse have resistance?

 

[Agnaa]

4D haxstomp because MB's stuff is all 3D, ig.

Guess that's all that needs to be said.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Oh, so both rounds are stomp? Gg

 

[Arcker123]

I type up a bible just to get hit with that.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If her luck ability is not on 2-A size. I think that now stomps, lol.

 

[Agnaa]

I type up a bible just to get hit with that.

I feel ya, I went digging through the series to grab over a dozen scans for this gigapost since pages missed a fair few of 'em.

 

[Purgy]

Even if the luck was 2-A, isn't fate manip just intrinsically superior to luck? I don't see how their luck could manipulate things more in their favor than Yhwach literally just manipulating the future to make things go his way

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think fate manip's intrinsically superior to luck. I'd say you just compare 'em by feats. The difference is really just a choice of wording and framing.

I believe Medaka/Iihiko's luck was considered either fate or plot manip before it was removed and then re-added, since their extension of it is described in those terms. But I got it put back as luck instead since it just seems to be an extension of luck other characters have, and is initially described/shown as such before a few characters started putting a metafictional spin on it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Even if the luck was 2-A, isn't fate manip just intrinsically superior to luck? I don't see how their luck could manipulate things more in their favor than Yhwach literally just manipulating the future to make things go his way

Depends on how the verse treats luck.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

My point in making is he still lost in his verse because of an arrow and being cut in half.
So in that case he is going to lose to Shibuki Shibushi Scar Dead will immediately open up the same wounds that that he recieved from the arrow and ichigo sword slash.
Scar Dead is passive immediately so it’s instant Déjà vu for him to die just like he did in the Bleach Manga.
Plus not to mention that Medaka performs Scar Dead even better than Shibuki.

 

[Purgy]

My point in making is he still lost in his verse because of an arrow and being cut in half.
So in that case he is going to lose to Shibuki Shibushi Scar Dead will immediately open up the same wounds that that he recieved from the arrow and ichigo sword slash.
Scar Dead is passive immediately so it’s instant Déjà vu for him to die just like he did in the Bleach Manga.
Plus not to mention that Medaka performs Scar Dead even better than Shibuki.

It wasn't the wound itself that took away his powers, it was explicitly the still silver arrow coming into contact with his blood

And that's Yhwach as he died, so I don't think that's what we use here, just the most recent key

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

It wasn't the wound itself that took away his powers, it was explicitly the still silver arrow coming into contact with his blood

And that's Yhwach as he died, so I don't think that's what we use here, just the most recent key

The arrow did cause damage though with its interaction thus invoking the void on us powers, correct? The wound was still made with the arrow and ichigo slash was just the finishing blow. Scar Dead opens all that open making him endure it again.

Wait so are we using Yhwach before his final moments of losing in the manga? Isn’t that suppose to be the strongest point where he is at his most powerful but ended up just dying by the arrow and ichigo slash in the end?

 

[Purgy]

The arrow did cause damage though with its interaction thus invoking the void on us powers, correct? The wound was still made with the arrow and ichigo slash was just the finishing blow. Scar Dead opens all that open making him endure it again.

Wait so are we using Yhwach before his final moments of losing in the manga? Isn’t that suppose to be the strongest point where he is at his most powerful but ended up just dying by the arrow and ichigo slash in the end?

Incorrect, the injury/wound whatever you want to call it is irrelevant, Scar Dead may be able to make an arrow sized hole in his chest if we use the version of Yhwach one or two panels before his death, but she can't produce a silver arrow and spawn it in his chest which is what's needed

I assume it's just Yhwach when he was at his strongest, so as he absorbs Ichigo's power

 

[Purgy]

And of course that's blatantly ignoring that Shibuki dies before she gets within a KM of Yhwach from Reiatsu alone as she has zero soul resistance and is borderline infinitely weaker than him

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

If we are using Yhwach before the whole silver arrow/ichigo slash, then I can accept the argument of Scar Dead not opening those wounds because he has yet experience those wounds yet.

However, if not Scar Dead is still on the table for it. Its main purpose is to invoke the user to recieve all by product of the damage they occurred when they experience the wound on a physical and mental output. Scar Dead isn’t spawning a whole new silver arrow. All it’s doing it’s reopening the same situation and circumstances that originally caused the user to feel the pain in the first place aka the final impact of what the silver arrow did do to his blood stream and Ichigo Slash is the killing blow.

 

[Purgy]

If we are using Yhwach before the whole silver arrow/ichigo slash, then I can accept the argument of Scar Dead not opening those wounds because he has yet experience those wounds yet.

However, if not Scar Dead is still on the table for it. Its main purpose is to invoke the user to recieve all by product of the damage they occurred when they experience the wound on a physical and mental output. Scar Dead isn’t spawning a whole new silver arrow. All it’s doing it’s reopening the same situation and circumstances that originally caused the user to feel the pain in the first place aka the final impact of what the silver arrow did do to his blood stream and Ichigo Slash is the killing blow.

But again, the damage from the arrow isn't what caused it, it's the fact that a still silver arrow coming into contact with Yhwach's blood takes away all his powers for a brief moment

Scar Dead doesn't return Yhwach to the instance of him being shot with the arrow, it only reopens the wound of the arrow, which achieves nothing

 

[Arcker123]

Isn’t scar dead just causality hax which is resisted?

 

[Purgy]

Isn’t scar dead just causality hax which is resisted?

Seems like it, not listed as such on her profile though

 

[Arcker123]

Seems like it, not listed as such on her profile though

Still Silver has 4D powernull so assuming Scar Dead can replicate is NLF

 

[Agnaa]

Scar Dead is not Causality Manip. Still, it would not be useful here.