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Yhwach vs Frieza

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The only possible way Yhwach can win is if you treat his abilities as a serious NLF. Otherwise Frieza is just massively above Yhwach and everything he can do.
 
or better yet shounen jump should have giving tite kubo more time and yhwach wouldt be an cluster f%ck of and character and his alimighty may then make more sense sinds uryu magic arrow bothers me more then aizen trolling
 
Well there are arguments for both sides. It is stomp-ish but it's good to see what both sides have to say
 
Changing and choosing are not the same thing. If he could choose a future he would be limited to a certain number of futures based off of how he and the opponent are fighting. However he has shown to make the impossible, possible. After reviving himself from the dead he even stated he rewrote the future to undo his death.

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/684/9
 
He choose a future where he wasn't dead. Yhwach said, "Even my own death ...Can be overwritten" - Original Source [1]
 
@Amlad Yhwach doesnt create a new timeline in which he is alive, he'd be.. Low 2-C. He chooses a future that suits him, by changing the "natural" future.
 
Yeah; this is a pretty big mismatch. Nobody Yhwach as fought is even close to Frieza's level.

Only way to rationalize Yhwach winning is to say he has no limits.
 
Can Yhwach even use The Almighty to kill Frieza before Frieza speedblitzes him? Or is it instant? Does The Almighty see all possible futures or can he make up his own? He seems to only change the future to a possible future (like changing to a possible future where he doesn't die) Frieza is ruthless and wouldn't just let Yhwach live in character, especially if they're in combat, Frieza even wastes his own soldiers just for making a mistake. There wouldn't be any possible futures where Frieza shows mercy or even loses, from what I've read in this thread, Yhwach only changes the future to a POSSIBLE future, meaning the only way Yhwach wins is if there's a future in which Frieza loses, which cannot happen with their MASSIVE gap in power.

Frieza stomps
 
LucyyXNyuXHana said:
Type of shit is this? There needs to be a put down with the Bleach wankers smh
Click to expand...
This guy didn't read the wiki rules, insulting people will result in an instant ban even if your insults are back up with reasons, because there is no reason to not talk properly.
 
@JSW, honestly the Almighty is taken to such great lengths that it's becoming an NLF. I mean for all you know Yhwach could've just 'faked his death' when he died the first time. It's more likely than somehow rewriting your death if you didn't see it coming, and Yhwach certainly didn't see it coming.

@Apple Aye, this debate is supposed to be civil most of the time
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
@JSW, honestly the Almighty is taken to such great lengths that it's becoming an NLF. I mean for all you know Yhwach could've just 'faked his death' when he died the first time. It's more likely than somehow rewriting your death if you didn't see it coming, and Yhwach certainly didn't see it coming.
@Apple Aye, this debate is supposed to be civil most of the time
Click to expand...
Possibly to remove the effects of Aizen's sword. After coming back to life he said to Ichigo that if he really thought that said attack wasn't enough to kill him or harm him. I forgot which one he said.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
@JSW, honestly the Almighty is taken to such great lengths that it's becoming an NLF. I mean for all you know Yhwach could've just 'faked his death' when he died the first time. It's more likely than somehow rewriting your death if you didn't see it coming, and Yhwach certainly didn't see it coming.
@Apple Aye, this debate is supposed to be civil most of the time
Click to expand...
It does seem like NLF to me, but I never read Bleach so I'm just relying on what I've seen in this thread and on his profile...so I'm probably wrong about a lot of things
 
AppleLord said:
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
@JSW, honestly the Almighty is taken to such great lengths that it's becoming an NLF. I mean for all you know Yhwach could've just 'faked his death' when he died the first time. It's more likely than somehow rewriting your death if you didn't see it coming, and Yhwach certainly didn't see it coming.
@Apple Aye, this debate is supposed to be civil most of the time
Click to expand...
Possibly to remove the effects of Aizen's sword. After coming back to life he said to Ichigo that if he really thought that said attack wasn't enough to kill him or harm him. I forgot which one he said.
Click to expand...
What's the point of that then? Couldn't he have just figured out and become immune to the ability on the first place? Isn't that kinda contradictory? I mean if so he should've figured out how the ability works by then, but how come he didn't see the part after where the illusion didn't affect him anymore and he got hit by Ichigo? On a narrative standpoint it would've been better if Aizen threw off the illusion the moment after Ichigo stabbed Yhwach and unleashed the attack.

Or perhaps there is a limit to what abilities he could become immune to... Because from what Yhwach says, he kills Aizen after he stops using the power. Whether it was on the condition which he said "Pride" or "Reached its limit" he still should've been able to render the ability useless if his power was all so almighty...

Yet... that's not the case.

In fact, he wonders that on the dialogue asking if that would be enough to kill him as you said. It makes me doubt if it was really a killing blow, or something that just damaged him. If he was just boasting it would make sense considering typical shonen villains get on long rants despite his claims that he could rewrite the future which he died. Because come on, even when Uryu used that arrow that makes his ability not work for an instant, what's stopping him from coming back to life?

In fact in a logical stand point there's absolutely no way he could've lost if all his abilities hold true or if he used his other abilities. There are clear contradictions and NLFs around but people won't be happy if I poke that nest long enough. Either way, there are limits on Yhwach certainly.
 
It was the case with Ichibe's ability. Why it didn't work with Aizen? Probably because he was already under the influence before he got The Almighty. As seen with Aizen's power he can control the eyes of a person, so eveything Yhwach was seeing was fake. Even Yhwach's own death was different to the original version he had.

Actually, Yhwach one of the calmess villains ever, until the end. He despise lies, and kills his own men for it. Yhwach iirc said that Uryu's power was stronger than him and Jugram did said that Uryu's power could challenge the Almighty. Maybe it was that. The Antithesis removes to events and switches them.
 
And afterwards he turned it off, point being that if he did get such a power off from Aizen I don't think it's not something to just shrug off. Then again my main argument is that just like with Ichibei on the first place he can't steal/mimic all powers he sees.

I don't acknowledge screaming in anger as your plans fall apart and not noticing your potential killer with your plethora of abilities as calm. Yes, but he also killed them instead of just berating them for lying. That's a bit too much to do, if not borderline psychotic when you can easily remedy the situation. Either way my point is Yhwach clearly shows limitations with the amount of abilities he can copy and that beings of higher tier or are supposed to shut down his ability on the first place would trump over him. And still calling bull on him rewriting his future as an NLF.

Or maybe he used Kyoka in order to trick the viewers with Bleach ending... God that would be amazing but low likelihood.
 
Yeah, he turn it off. Probably, the fear of having Aizen's power continue after his revival. He can't if they are like Ichibe's, he try to steal darkness from Ichibei, but failed because Ichibei controls all Darkness in the world, however, when he open the Almighty it wasn't the case. He kill Ichibei with his own power that he drank.

Well, in his place all villians would do that. Did you see him as he was dying later on? Calm. They were fodder, and hollows. Not Quincy's. The Quincy's he killed were againts him, the others hit by the light randomly died as some didn't.

Why is seeing the future NLF? Mimigahi could see the future. What happen?

http://www.geekireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/b014.jpg

You're correct on his weakness.
 
Well either way it shows limitation on his power. Could also mean he can't steal powers from anyone of a higher tier than him or could become immune...

Fair enough, but I still doubt he was the calmest villain in the end.

I mean the rewrite his death part. I don't believe he could do such a thing with how his wording is on the chapter. Or at least people seem to wank it too much when it just seems he regenerated from a physical attack. I don't think he can recover from a conceptual attack anyway. I concede on that image tho

Thank you.
 
You're correct on that.

One scene does it for me, don't know about you.

The official translation of Viz is this one:

Juchabach: I hope you did not believe... // ...you had taken my life with an attack like that? // My power... // ...allows me to change the future.

7 Juchabach: Even my own death... // ...can be overwritten!!! // Useless!!

8 Ichigo: Nguahh! // Hahh...!

9 Juchabach: It is over. // Both the human world... / ...and Soul Siciety... // ...will lose their form and become as one before my power!!

10 Juchabach: .........What... // ...is this...? Ichigo: Ishida...............?! Flashback!Ryuuken: Let me tell you what Souken told me.

11 Flashback!Ryuuken: The silver that appears due to the Auswählen is called "Silver of Stillness". // By mixing with the blood of the one who activated the Auswählen... // ...it interferes with all of the user's abilities. // For a single instant... // ...it eliminates them all. Ishida: Now's your chance! // Kurosaki!!

This page is very useful, I use it for Naruto and Toriko translations.

https://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/42672
 
There's no reason why Yhwach couldn't rewrite his own death. He can change the future so as long as his consciousness is alive he can still rewrite futures. The official translation given shows good proof of this
 
But to what extent... Would him being wiped out by an attack that pulverizes the planet mean the death of him? Especially when there's no planet after? Hell it seems more like a ressurection move that should have a limitation considering what happened after, otherwise he should already be dead or... however Bleach spelled out what happened to him in the end.
 
Well considering the things he's done with the almighty I wouldn't be surprised if he can only be killed by reality warping attacks that wipe out the consciousness of Yhwach. For example if someone only blew up the planet Yhwach could still come back and since he was planning to destroy every single realm he should be able to breathe in space. And even if we assume that he can be killed by extreme attacks like the death ball from dbz he could change the future so that the attack just cancels out
 
@Pachi2

In debating nothing is ever set in stone.

@Amlad

He was planning to destroy them and form a new one, combining them in fact. I doubt he would need to make one if he can't breathe in space. Has he even cancelled a planetary attack? Because from what Ichigo shot out at him, he only went full force planetary at the last one when he actually landed a good hit.

That said gotta go now. Will continue this some other time but I'm more than sure Frieza wins.
 
I think his soul King power should give him the ability to breath in space since the soul King created every realm meaning that it existed before there even were realms.

As for planatary attacks he hasn't done that but he has done ridiculous things with the almighty. He cancelled out the affect of Ichibei's shikai and Bankai and even canceled the Futen Ryou. He was able to bypass time and space to break Ichigo's Bankai with a mere thought (proven when Ichigo said he never moved and he didn't even try to use his reiatsu, he just broke it in an instant).

I hope to continue this discussion with you soon
 
Back and glad you look forward to this.

Questionable and debatable. For what purpose? He certainly didn't destroy the world and more like melded it together.

Is it really bypassing time and space? Like explicitly saying that? Cause I think even if I beleive it it's probably only time. There's still something so iffy about manipulating the future and how Yhwach can 'revive himself' when he can't even affect other lives with it.

And we can't say Ichibei and Ichigo's attacks are on a level compared to Frieza.
 
Well the soul King existed before there even were any realms since he created everything. The soul King logically doesn't need oxygen to survive unless he was born into the pre created realms, which isn't what happened from what Kubo has shown

The reason why I think it might be space is because ichigo's sword seemingly teleported into his hand all because Yhwach changed the future. So he can kinda warp space to move objects although it's not complete control. He can defiantly affect other lives, he one shotted Ichibei with the almighty. And bypassed orihime's time and space REJECTION to attack Ichigo. I literally realized as I was typing that how much of a good feat he is. His almighty bypassed a defence that negates and reverses time and space (stated by Aizen). Yhwach is as close to a NFL as you can get, theoretically he could even do something like make the sun appear in his opponents face

And I know that Ichibei and Ichigo aren't Frieza but what made ichibei's attacks so strong wasn't the raw power but the hax. Yhwach literally got turned into an ant and then through the future changed himself back to normal
 
Fair enough, but I'm still not believing that he's going to be surviving a planetary attack, especially if Freiza reduces him to a punching bag of just destroy again and again and again.

Couldn't he just warp time in that case? I mean you can technically take anything off of someone's hands if you can manipulate time. And yeah doubtful on the sun part, very very doubtful. Honestly I forgot how Orihime's ability works so I can't really comment on that. But I'm sure it's more because of the based on future ability.

Literally? Nay, I read the battle, his power level was turned to one of an ant. It just means Ichibei isn't as strong as we thought, but strong enough to be immune to his power stealing.
 
Yhwach is at least planet level to multi planet level depending on how many realms he was going to destroy at once and I don't see why he can't tank what he can dish out. Frieza still has a huge ap advantage though but that's where the almighty would help. I'm wondering if he changes the future would it work on someone that is far above him? I see no reason for it not to work unless the person has some sort of reality warping or time manipulation.

My bad I worded that wrong, he was renamed "ant" and therefore gained the power of an ant, however his almighty saw this and changed the future so that he was no longer an ant. It's still an op move by Ichibei.
 
He was at best absorbing three but even I find it doubtful they were each planet sized. The best I'd give him is planetary and even his durability I heard doesn't scale to that. The reason why it's doubtful it would work is because he never used it against anyone else that isn't him. To surpress their abilities and weapons? Yes. But never against anyone when he could have had made it so their future they're already dead. There are some clear cut limitations here and there.

Almighty sure helps in seeing the varous multiple ways he gets shut down.

Also if the Almighty is so strong why didn't it negate the attacks used against him on the first place? That would mean he can be overwhelmed by pure phsyical force then.

Yhwach is weak to having his power shut down. His almighty countered it because it's on the tier that's above Ichibei. We can't be sure of it's true maximum potential seeing as it doesn't work on everything and everyone.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
Yhwach is weak to having his power shut down.
Click to expand...
Via an arrow made from Yhwach's own Auswahlen and only after mixing it with his own blood, it only lasts a second, but it can interfere with all of his powers and turn them off. Just correcting missleading info.
 
How about when Ichibei shut down his power on the first place?

And it almost feels like Supernatural where the big bad gets taken down by this one weapon only. And again, how do we exactly scale the potency of that? Kryptonite by itself isn't universal when it could weaken the strongest superman. It just means that it's potent enough to disable Yhwach for a bit, but what if said person is much much stronger than that? Yeah. It's a big NLF to claim it would only be affected by that specific arrow.

Anyway we're geting off topic, siding with Frieza here for stats and capability to turn Yhwach into an eternal punching bag infinite revives aside.
 
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