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Yhwach vs Frieza

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Mister Death said:
^You continue to claim that Ywhach's ability can stop an opponent way out of his ballpark, and your only defense to that claim is "it's too hax even for the massive AP/Speed difference"
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My defence is much more than that. Yhwach can see every possible future before it happens and change it accordingly. By doing this he will know what Frieza will do before Frieza knows. Of course the big speed gap makes people think that Frieza would blitz him from the start so he wouldn't be able to change the future. However, that's not how Frieza fights. Against people like King Vegeta and Nail he lets them attack him so that he can taunt them. Yhwach would attack Frieza and do little to no damage, this would cause Frieza to attack Yhwach injuring him severely. However this short delay would give Yhwach all the time he needs to kill Frieza. Before he knows what happens his head will be at Yhwach's feet.

If Frieza does kill Yhwach right away Yhwach would come back and before he comes back change the future so that Frieza will die. I could have made it a bit more fair and bloodlusted both of them. But that wouldn't have done much either Yhwach can still revive himself
 
Okay, Yhwach doesnt insta kill anyone via Future manipulation, he understimates everyone and plays with them (otherwise ichigo, renji, orihime, aizen, rukia would be dead) so this "Frieza will let Yhwach have his way" isnt working.

Yhwach doesnt see "all possible futures", that was his own NLF speech, otherwise he'd have seen Uryu being a threat and... Auswalhen'd him anytime (Yhwach activated Almighty Loooooooooong before he had that "dream").

Also, Frieza doesnt need to go for the kill, the gap between both of them is so gigantic he only needs to flick his fingers to destroy Yhwach (literally).
 
No, not PIS, more like CIS and Yhwach's NLF ability combined. Tho, the arrow was PIS, but Yhwach being plain careless is CIS.
 
PaChi2 said:
Okay, Yhwach doesnt insta kill anyone via Future manipulation, he understimates everyone and plays with them (otherwise ichigo, renji, orihime, aizen, rukia would be dead) so this "Frieza will let Yhwach have his way" isnt working.
Yhwach doesnt see "all possible futures", that was his own NLF speech, otherwise he'd have seen Uryu being a threat and... Auswalhen'd him anytime (Yhwach activated Almighty Loooooooooong before he had that "dream").
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When was it stated he understimates just anyone? Given he has prep here via Almighty and attacking everyone on Planet Vegeta before Frieza shows up, he'd likely see all possible futures with Frieza showing off his strength, which wouldnt make Ywhach underestimate him.

And as for the NLF part, pretty sure it was when Ywhach was in the middle of being revived, which is why he didnt see Uyru shooting the arrow at him. And if wrong, like Applelord said, PIS/Plot Armor arrow
 
How is The Almighty NLF? Its very deffinition is NLF.

He didnt see Uryu/Mimihagi and was affected by KS... that is far from being what he claimed to be his powers.
 
The Almighty doesn't qualify as "The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that '''a poorly understood phenomenon''' can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold."
 
I was talking about The Almighty being NLF, nothing else.
 
PaChi2 said:
How is The Almighty NLF? Its very deffinition is NLF.
He didnt see Uryu/Mimihagi and was affected by KS... that is far from being what he claimed to be his powers.
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The first part is PIS and he was only affected by KS before he awakend the Almighty, in the past. And the past is something that Almighty can't affect.
 
The only reason he couldn't see mimihagi coming is because he's part of the soul King. Yhwach said he can't see the future of mimihagi and soul King. As for the uryu arrow take a look at this

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/684/11

After being revived Yhwach stopped using his almighty. He doesn't have his three pupils. He wanted to destroy Ichigo and Aizen with pure force so he stoped using the almighty. If he didn't do this Kubo wouldn't have been able to kill Yhwach since he's nearly unbeatable
 
Which is not, someone could use this no limit fallacy, and claim that, only because we never seen boundaries of The Almighty ability to change the future or revive himself, that doesn't mean that he's abilities have no boundaries.

Well, ladies and gentlemen the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, so if you claim that - for example - Yhwach's abilities have boundaries, and that something indeed can permanently kill him, then you must prove it, otherwise it's safe to say that Yhwach will always come back to life, by changing his death, since he was able to do it while been death.

So, unless proven otherwise, characters like Yhwach are unkillable and no amount of screaming about no limit fallacy, will change that. Of course unless time manipulation, space manipulation, reality warping, CIS or PIS are involve.
 
You realize that Yhwach should have seen Uryu comming since the very momment he activated The Almigthy. That is the whole point of his power.
 
Yes but that doesnt mean it wll notably make Ywhach worry enough while using his power. I mean when one of the Sternritter was using his Almighty he already saw a future where all of them would lose to Ywhach, meaning him having to go after and kill them himself for Ywhach was not neccesary as he believed they would lose anyway
 
LordAizenSama said:
Why is this a thing aye aye aye..
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I was praying someone said something about this. Can this topic be closed due to a mega mismatch? Frieza would riped off Yhwachs balls and send him flying into the sun before he can even process the image of Frieza's body image turning him off.
 
And then Ywhach would revive and then hax stomp Frieza. Or just set up counters to whatever Frieza would do to him due to already knowing what he'd do in the fight via prep
 
@AppleLord Can now The Almighty be "a poorly understood phenomenon" since:

a) Yhwach's deffinition has no limits.

b) He himself has claimed it can "somehow" be surpassed

c) It can be affected by something like KS (dont tell me it is because it was before activating it, the point is KS can affect it to the point Yhwach didnt know what was happening).

d) It has shown flaws.

e) Yhwach has changed the explanation of his powers over the course of the manga.
 
PaChi2 said:
@AppleLord Can now The Almighty be "a poorly understood phenomenon" since:

a) Yhwach's deffinition has no limits.

b) He himself has claimed it can "somehow" be surpassed

c) It can be affected by something like KS (dont tell me it is because it was before activating it, the point is KS can affect it to the point Yhwach didnt know what was happening).

d) It has shown flaws.

e) Yhwach has changed the explanation of his powers over the course of the manga.
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Nobody has said on this thread that Yhwach can never be beaten. We know he has flaws. However everything that has affected him over the series and everything that could have affected him (the two things being Kyoka and Antitheis) are extremely hax powers. All Frieza has is raw power. The small flaws of the almighty wouldn't matter in a fight with Frieza
 
A.) His no limit definition only involve the part of seeing all futures nothing else.

B.) Yes, surpass by a power that reverses everything the Almighty would do.

C.) KS affects someone senses that includes the eyes, and what Yhwach sees.

D.) If it has flaws is not a "a poorly understood phenomenon".

E.) The explination wasn't change, he elaborate on it further.

I suggest you read the official manga translations instead of the ones online.

Or you can read the Viz official translations from here:https://mangahelpers.com/m/bleach/translations/
 
a) Yep, which he cant, those are the flaws.

c)Frieza would be moving at MFTL speeds in order to reach planet vegeta (intergalactic travel) and FTL speeds to kill Yhwach, the guy isnt seeing anything, therefore, not changing the future of something he cannot see.

e) I was comparing the first deffinition he gave when he unlocked it and the other one he explained latter. Thank you for the suggestion, btw.
 
PaChi2 said:
a) Yep, which he cant, those are the flaws.

c)Frieza would be moving at MFTL speeds in order to reach planet vegeta (intergalactic travel) and FTL speeds to kill Yhwach, the guy isnt seeing anything, therefore, not changing the future of something he cannot see.

e) I was comparing the first deffinition he gave when he unlocked it and the other one he explained latter. Thank you for the suggestion, btw.
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It's not a matter of Yhwach seeing Frieza move. He would look into the future and see what he would do.

His definitions never changed. At first it was, "I am all seeing and everything I see is negated and made powerless" then it became "I can see all futures no matter what they contain" and finally we got "not only can I see the future but I can change it"
 
its a matter of seeing, otherwise KS would be powerless against it.
 
A.) There can't be a NLF ability with flaws. Is either one or the other.

B.) I said above that Frieza stomps Yhwach, so, no arguing there.

C.) The explination is about the same, however the second time it was more detail. He told Ichigo back then, when he stab the Soul King that he could see through every future. Nothing was change, just bad translations.
 
a) that is why i said that stating that Yhwach would see Frieza coming was of the NLF nature, since its beyonf his capabilities to see him and that was applying strictly his "I can see all possible futures".

b) I think we agree here.

c) I thought he said something different when he fought ichibei, anyway, okay, sorry.
 
nope, Frieza is moving too fast for him to perceive. You (human) cannot see something moving at LS no matter how much you try. And from Frieza's standing, Yhwach is frozen as he is too slow.
 
PaChi2 said:
nope, Frieza is moving too fast for him to perceive. You (human) cannot see something moving at LS no matter how much you try. And from Frieza's standing, Yhwach is frozen as he is too slow.
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You are assuming that Yhwach would only start using his power when Frieza arrives. Yhwach would see Frieza coming and change the future before he even arrives. Anything Frieza has planned or will plan to do will have been seen.
 
I already stated that Yhwach cannot see frieza coming as he is travelling at MFTL speeds. Please tell me why Yhwach would be able to see him, because frieza moves faster (intergalactic travel + fighting) than what he can perceive. If Yhwach were to look into the future he'd just see himself getting killed and killed by something cannot see.
 
Yeah Frieza should take this as I'm pretty sure Yhwach's abilities were working so well against the rest of the Bleach cast because he was so far above them in power. However with the massive AP and speed gap between these two I'm not sure Yhwach's hax would work out so well.

If they did then wouldn't he had just stopped Uryu before he shot him with his Anti-Almighty arrow thus allowing him to survive Ichigo's attack.
 
Even if Yhwach gets blitzed by Frieza and killed (which isn't something he would do) he can just revive himself and change the future while Frieza thinks he's won.

Also Muu0934, we discussed about the uryu part already in the thread. Yhwach was shown to have stopped using the almighty
 
We already told you that frieza would insta blitz yhwach since Yhwach is so slow for frieza it would look like he was talking to a statue. And frieza has a busy schedule, he is a galactic emperor.
 
Correction. DBZ characters don't talk at FTL speeds neither do they walk or stay still at such speeds.
 
They do talk at FTL speeds whenever they fight. Frieza is here to kill Yhwach, why would he stay still until Yhwach perceived him (Frieza's reactions still make Yhwach look like a statue anyway)?
 
Both fighters are in character. Frieza has never one shotted anyone in the series with the exception of king Vegeta. And even then he let Vegeta attack him a couple times first. If both characters were bloodlusted it might be different. But I didn't include a bonus round like that. I should have, but I didn't
 
I guess everyone is FTL in DBZ including humans like Bulma. If you're not moving, you can't say that you're at FTL speeds and talking at such speeds.
 
Dende disagrees with the above post. All the army frieza took to Earth disagrees, vegeta after Frieza got to the final form disagrees. Planet Vegeta disagrees (Frieza didnt fight any saiyan directly). In fact, Yhwach has been shown to be more careless than frieza.
 
Dende, really? Frieza could have done anything to him and he would have died. Planet Vegeta was only destroyed because there were thousands of strong warriors that could one day overthrow Frieza. Look at his fights with Nail, Vegeta and even Goku. He toys with his opponents and even lets them attack him
 
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