Yet Another One Piece Revision

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage

1. Aokiji has no reason to hold back though and this may already be one of his weaker attacks scaling from Akainu who scales to whitebeard.

Just to be clear I'm not saying Doffy is equal to WB :O. Obviously there is still a huge gap between whitebeard and admirals just as there was a gap between them and Doffy. The issue here is whether said gap should warrant a massive change in tier which in this case I don't think so.

2. That's an AP/durability thing. To be clear I think there's a difference in power but still would back Island level Jonzu.

SCs would be Island level + or higher.

 

[Damage3245]

2. That's an AP/durability thing. To be clear I think there's a difference in power but still would back Island level Jonzu.

Jozu is already Island level, no?

I could see this being supporting for upgrading Jozu's durability to Island level+ but I don't think his tier should be changed beyond that tbh.

 

[Dr.Fix]

+is too high for a guy that gets one shot.

Yes, he is already Island level for scaling off Cracker, which is pretty flimsy evidence since the latter clearly scales higher. This adds support for his Island level rating.

 

[Damage3245]

If you want to change his justification to include this calc without altering his ratings, that's fine.

 

[Cmue0312]

That's not an argument for this feat scaling to Aokiji's durability.

Rather, you're just stating that Aokiji already gets his durability rating from another feat. How would you prove that though? We can't calc the seriousness of a character.

1. Why would I have to prove Aokiji's durability scales to this feat when he already scales to an even higher feat? That already proves Jozu should at least scale to this feat because he's capable of making someone bleed that has higher durability than this feat and is comparable to Ace. Who you agree with scaling to this feat.

2. Even if we ignore the fact that Aokiji preformed this casually and that he has no reason to hold back. Doflamingo still restrained Jozu which proves his normal strings have that level of durability if Jozu scales. Luffy by flexing could break them and Luffy's punches should be much stronger then him flexing. Which would mean Doflamingo's durability would scale either directly or by taking hits from Luffy who is much stronger than a Jozu who can make Aokiji bleed. Also Doflamingo was seriously injured when he took hits from Gear Fourth Luffy.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Cmue

That's why I think Luffy and Doffy should scale.

 

[Cmue0312]

Yes I see no reason Doflamingo shouldn't scale. Which would mean Cracker, Smoothie and Katakuri all scale by being stronger than Doflamingo.

 

[Damage3245]

1. Why would I have to prove Aokiji's durability scales to this feat when he already scales to an even higher feat? That already proves Jozu should at least scale to this feat because he's capable of making someone bleed that has higher durability than this feat and is comparable to Ace. Who you agree with scaling to this feat.

I didn't say anything about you having to prove Aokiji's durability scale to this feat...

> Luffy by flexing could break them and Luffy's punches should be much stronger then him flexing.

Luffy broke it through his transformation into G4, not merely by flexing.

 

[Cmue0312]

Luffy transforming into Gear Fourth should still have less AP then Gear Fourth's punches and kicks. So my point still stands.

 

[Damage3245]

Can you make a list of all of the characters with their new ratings / justifications next to their names, please. So we can see who this would effect?

 

[Cmue0312]

Ace: Island level+ (6-C), matched Aokiji's ice with his fire and survived a clash with Akainu who has a superior Devil Fruit with no serious injuries.

Jozu: Island level+ (6-C), made Aokiji bleed and is comparable to Ace.

Marco: Island level+ (6-C), took hits from Garp and Akainu. Comparable to Ace.

Vista: Island level+ (6-C), kept up with Mihawk in a brief fight. Comparable to Ace.

Doflamingo: Island level+ (6-C) higher with Awakening, broke out of Aokiji's ice with no side effects and took hits from Gear Fourth: Boundman Luffy who should be much stronger than Jozu.

Tsuru: Island level+ (6-C), Doflamingo feared engaing her in combat during his time as a pirate even well she was past her prime.

Jinbe: Island level+ (6-C), matched Ace in combat for 5 days. Blocked attacks from Akainu and Big Mom.

Blackbeard (Pre-timeskip): Island level+ (6-C), nearly broke Ace's neck with a single attack.

Cracker: Island level+ (6-C), capable of injuring Gear Fourth: Boundman Luffy.

Smoothie: Island level+ (6-C), stronger than Craker.

Katakuri: Island level+ (6-C)possibly higher, stronger than both Cracker and Smoothie. Took hits from Gear Fourth: Boundman and matched Gear Fourth: Snakeman when Luffy had become much stronger.

Jack: Island level+ (6-C), should be comparable to other Yonko Commanders. Survived an encounter with Sengoku, Tsuru and Fujitora with no serious injuries.

Zunisha: Island level+ (6-C), one-shot Jack.

Nekomamushi: Island level+ (6-C), held of Jack for 5 days well taking 12 hour breaks after 12 hours of fighting.

Inurashi: Island level+ (6-C), held of Jack for 5 days well taking 12 hour breaks after 12 hours of fighting.

Jesus Burgess: Island level+ (6-C), should be comparable to other Yonko Commanders.

Sabo: Island level+ (6-C), defeated Jesus Burgess with relative ease.

Dressrosa Saga Luffy: Island level+ (6-C) with Gear Fourth higher with strongest attacks, casually broke Doflaingo's strings by transforming which could restrain Jozu and break out of Aokiji's ice. King Kong Gun one-shot Doflamingo through his strongest attack and defense although both where seriously injured.

Whole Cake Island Luffy: Island level+ (6-C) with Gear Third possibly Large Island level (High 6-C) with Gear Fourth higher with strongest attacks. Comparable to Katakuri with Gear Third. Gear Fourth: Boundman is stated to be several times stronger than Luffy's strongest attacks by Doflamingo. Tankman and Snakeman should be comparable. One-shot Cracker and several biscut soldiers with Tankman: Full Version, King Cobra defeated Katakuri and caused him serious damage.

Whole Cake Island Luffy can change depending on how we decide to scale him.

Edit: I added a few characters I forgot. If I missed anyone please add them.

 

[Damage3245]

For what it is worth, if the Whitebeard Commanders have valid justifications on their own, then they don't need to be noted as being comparable to Ace.

Doflamingo is probably the one I find sketchiest, but I'm willing to go along with it for now since everyone else is.

> Jesus Burgess: Island level+ (6-C), should be comparable to other Yonko Commanders.

Actually, I find this one to be the sketchiest.

Just because the man he's working for has been recognized as a Yonkou doesn't make Jesus Burgess necessarily comparable to the top commanders of other Yonkou Crews.

The rest of the ratings and justifications look fine.

 

[The_Calaca]

I agree with Damage about Burguess. Unlike Doffy he doesn't have supporting stuff like the scaling from Jozu and Fujitora along with Kuzan's feat so we shouldn't scale him to Kuzan.

Sabo should be comparable to Fujitora though so he doesn't get affected IG.

 

[Cmue0312]

I mean that's how we rate Jesus Burgess currently and he did take an attack from Sengoku with no serious injuries during Marineford if I remember correctly.

 

[The_Calaca]

So G4's scaling to 89 or 262 gigatons?

 

[Js250476]

So will Law get a possibly 6-C rating like what was suggested earlier?

 

[Cmue0312]

I don't know yet. I say Dressrosa shouldn't but Whole Cake Island could. I'm waiting for other opinions on the matter.

 

[Cmue0312]

Do you now of anything that could support 6-C Law. The only attack I remember being able to do anything to Doflamingo or his attacks was Gamma Knife which ignores durability.

 

[The_Calaca]

Well Luffy did punched good with Red Hawk and Doffy was clearly more damaged by that than Aokiji's freeze. It might be superior to Kuzan's feat with G2: Red Hawk and much higher with G3 and G4.

 

[Js250476]

Well he's currently scaled by matching Doffy's Blacknight, overheat and Goshikito attack's and could block attacks from him so I thought he would be upgraded to

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The scaling looks fine.

 

[Cmue0312]

I still say we shouldn't scale Red Hawk to Doflamingo. None of Luffy's other G2 and G3 attacks did anything to Doflamingo. Doflamingo was caught off guard and wasn't using Haki when he got hit. It is very likely an outlier.

Now if we want to talk about Whole Cake Island scaling to 262 Gigatons. I think there is an argumant to be made there.

 

[Cmue0312]

Well if that's the case then yeah 6-C Law should be fine.

 

[Damage3245]

Well Luffy did punched good with Red Hawk and Doffy was clearly more damaged by that than Aokiji's freeze. It might be superior to Kuzan's feat with G2: Red Hawk and much higher with G3 and G4.

Well, it is just an assumption after all that the ice used against Doflamingo is exactly equal in AP to the ice he created on a much larger scale.

And again, just because Aokiji doesn't have a reason to hold back doesn't mean he wasn't actually holding back.

So saying that Doflamingo appeared more damaged by a Red Hawk to the guts compared to Aokiji just covering him in a layer of ice doesn't mean much. It's also too very different ways of doing damage:

1) A burning punch straight to his guts.

2) A layer of ice halting him in his tracks.

Just because the layer of ice came from a pretty powerful dude doesn't really mean much tbh.

 

[The_Calaca]

I still say we shouldn't scale Red Hawk to Doflamingo. None of Luffy's other G2 and G3 attacks did anything to Doflamingo. Doflamingo was caught off guard and wasn't using Haki when he got hit. It is very likely an outlier.

I don't know how we treat surprise attacks but that'd be an outlier if Doffy blocked it with Haki. It was a direct hit w/o Haki covering his body so I don't understand why it would be.

Whole Cake Luffy (precisely Post-Katakuri) got an upgrade in his 3rd and 4th AP and base durability but it's unknown how much. We only know that he matched Katakuri's AP with Snakeman.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Ace: Island level+ (6-C), matched Aokiji's ice with his fire and survived a clash with Akainu who has a superior Devil Fruit with no serious injuries.Jozu: Island level+ (6-C), made Aokiji bleed and is comparable to Ace.
Marco: Island level+ (6-C), took hits from Garp and Akainu. Comparable to Ace.

Vista: Island level+ (6-C), kept up with Mihawk in a brief fight. Comparable to Ace.

Doflamingo: Island level+ (6-C) higher with Awakening, broke out of Aokiji's ice with no side effects and took hits from Gear Fourth: Boundman Luffy who should be much stronger than Jozu.

Tsuru: Island level+ (6-C), Doflamingo feared engaing her in combat during his time as a pirate even well she was past her prime.

Jinbe: Island level+ (6-C), matched Ace in combat for 5 days. Blocked attacks from Akainu and Big Mom.

Blackbeard (Pre-timeskip): Island level+ (6-C), nearly broke Ace's neck with a single attack.

Cracker: Island level+ (6-C), capable of injuring Gear Fourth: Boundman Luffy.

Smoothie: Island level+ (6-C), stronger than Craker.

Katakuri: Island level+ (6-C)possibly higher, stronger than both Cracker and Smoothie. Took hits from Gear Fourth: Boundman and matched Gear Fourth: Snakeman when Luffy had become much stronger.

Jack: Island level+ (6-C), should be comparable to other Yonko Commanders. Survived an encounter with Sengoku, Tsuru and Fujitora with no serious injuries.

Zunisha: Island level+ (6-C), one-shot Jack.

Nekomamushi: Island level+ (6-C), held of Jack for 5 days well taking 12 hour breaks after 12 hours of fighting.

Inurashi: Island level+ (6-C), held of Jack for 5 days well taking 12 hour breaks after 12 hours of fighting.

Jesus Burgess: Island level+ (6-C), should be comparable to other Yonko Commanders.

Sabo: Island level+ (6-C), defeated Jesus Burgess with relative ease.

Dressrosa Saga Luffy: Island level+ (6-C) with Gear Fourth higher with strongest attacks, casually broke Doflaingo's strings by transforming which could restrain Jozu and break out of Aokiji's ice. King Kong Gun one-shot Doflamingo through his strongest attack and defense although both where seriously injured.

Whole Cake Island Luffy: Island level+ (6-C) with Gear Third possibly Large Island level (High 6-C) with Gear Fourth higher with strongest attacks. Comparable to Katakuri with Gear Third. Gear Fourth: Boundman is stated to be several times stronger than Luffy's strongest attacks by Doflamingo. Tankman and Snakeman should be comparable. One-shot Cracker and several biscut soldiers with Tankman: Full Version, King Cobra defeated Katakuri and caused him serious damage.

Whole Cake Island Luffy can change depending on how we decide to scale him.

Edit: I added a few characters I forgot. If I missed anyone please add them.

I don't thik Ace scales. The reasoning is too contradicting.

Freeze is large island level at max & Island level+ with Ice age. His bird has no calc on its own though so which does it scale too? If Ace was able to counter it, who has no other showings on that level, then I'm inclined to say its his weakest attack. Also, shouldn't fire be naturally advantagous to an ice sculpture?

I already gave my views on Jozu above

Marco just regenerates, he can't actually no sell any attack so I wouldn't scale him either.

Vista: there's really no connection here. Scaling him to Mihawk isn't very good since we can only scale mihawk to shanks which is insane. I'm not sure who's stornger between him and Ace and both being among WB's many commanders doesn' cut it.

Jinbei: goes back to Ace not scaling

BB: same as above

Jack: If we're going to compare him without feats we might as well go with Kataguri

Burgees: Is way weaker then Ace and Sabo

Sabo: fodderizing Burgess isn't much of a feat.

 

[Cmue0312]

Yes Luffy got an upgrade with G3. However, there is no contradicting showings and we're told that Haki grows stronger as you fight. There are several contradicting showings with Red Hawk speciffically in relation to G3 (which should be stronger than any G2 attack) doing absolutely noting to Doflamingo's strings.

Anyway are we in agreement with my sugestion for the ratings and 6-C Law.

 

[Cmue0312]

I don't thik Ace scales. The reasoning is too contradicting.

Freeze is large island level at max & Island level+ with Ice age. His bird has no calc on its own though so which does it scale too? If Ace was able to counter it, who has no other showings on that level, then I'm inclined to say its his weakest attack. Also, shouldn't fire be naturally advantagous to an ice sculpture?

I already gave my views on Jozu above

Marco just regenerates, he can't actually no sell any attack so I wouldn't scale him either.

Vista: there's really no connection here. Scaling him to Mihawk isn't very good since we can only scale mihawk to shanks which is insane. I'm not sure who's stornger between him and Ace and both being among WB's many commanders doesn' cut it.

Jinbei: goes back to Ace not scaling

BB: same as above

Jack: If we're going to compare him without feats we might as well go with Kataguri

Burgees: Is way weaker then Ace and Sabo

Sabo: fodderizing Burgess isn't much of a feat.

Ace clashed with Akainu who is also rated at 300 Gigatons and has a stronger Devil Fruit with no serious injuries. The argument about Aokiji's not taking up as much space is a terrible one IMO. He attempted to freeze Whitebeard with far less ice too. I'm pretty sure most would agree that Aokiji would a use his full power to stop Whitebeard from destroying Marineford at all costs. So size =/= AP.

You do know that both Garp and Akainu have Haki which bypasses Devil Fruits right? Which means Marco still had to take the full force of the attack.

Also why would it be insane that Mihawk scales to Shanks? He fought him multiple times in the past and was possibly a Yonko for over a year before he gave Luffy his hat depending on how you interpret the Vivre Card Databook.

I'm fine with Burgess and Sabo not scaling.

Edit: Almost forgot Jack. He still had an encounter with Sengoku, Tsuru and Fujitora where he sank two of the four ships carrying Doflamingo and his crew. He escaped with no serious injuries so it is very likely that he should scale.

 

[Cmue0312]

Alright so I looked through the profiles to make sure I didn't miss anyone again.

Law should scale because he matched Doflamingo's Blacknight, overheat and Goshikito attacks. Fujitora would also scale because he beat down Law. Sabo did have a brief fight with Fujitora so he arguably would scale as well.

This shouldn't scale to Gear Third Dressrosa Luffy as Fujitora wasn't really trying and easily blew Luffy away when he got semi-serious.

 

[Dr.Fix]

. . .

Adamant haki bypasses intangibility Only BB can negate DF abilities.

I'm refering to Vista, not Mihawk

I don't think the first part of your post is addressed to me since it goes on about other stuff instead of my points.

 

[Cmue0312]

I don't see how I didn't address your points.

The AP of Aokiji's ice doesn't depend on size as he tried to freeze Whitebeard with barely any ice and his ice isn't weak to fire as he clashed with Akainu (who has a stronger DF than Ace) for 10 days. With this fight ending with Punk Hazard split between half ice and half fire.

Jinbe took attacks from both Big Mom and Akainu with no damge.

Ace matched Aokiji's ice and took a punch from Akainu (who has the stronger DF) with little damage.

Marco took attacks from Akainu and Garp which knocked him out of his transformed state. Marco also got shot with lasers from Kizaru well he wasn't using his powers. He even had his powers restrained by Seastone shortly after this well getting shot by more of Kizaru's lasers and continued to fight throughout the war with minimal dificulties.

Jozu made Aokiji bleed with a punch. He was only defeated easily because he was distracted by Marco getting shot.

Vista had a short fight with Mihawk.

So it is extremely consistent that Whitebeard's commanders can take hits and fight Admirals well they are casual. So there's no reason why they don't scale to a casual feat.

If the majority is in agreement I'm willing to make the nessasary edits.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree with most everything except High 6-C Luffy, that seems a bit overblown via a weak statement multiplier that doesn't seem reliable, I mean if were making Gear 3rd Dressrossa Luffy High 7-A, and Gear 4th luffy 6-C, I don't think we can safely let Luffy become High 6-C like that, seems like the Dragon Force Multiplier Comment

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Luffys multiplier is legit. It's stated by Doffy who was getting hit by the damn thing and Luffy was rag dolling him whilst in Gear Fourth. Not only that but Luffy got the form by training for two years straight in order to take down the strongest animals on the island. So a three times boost isn't iffy.


Edit : Plus the Dragon Force statement is inconsistent. It's stated to be either three or two times. Doffy outright stats Luffy us three times stronger with Gear Fourth. Plus this is One Piece don't bring FT into this

 

[The_Calaca]

The 3x thing is a lowball but I think he isn't talking about that but Luffy scaling to 87 gigatons with G2 or G3.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Luffy damaged Doffy in base albeit slightly. Hence why he would get a likely instead of him getting a full blown 6-C

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think for Dressrossa Luffy it should be, High 7-A in Base, Likely 6-C in Gear 2nd and 3rd, and 6-C+ for Gear 4th

Then for Whole Cake Island, 6-C for Gears 2 and 3, At least 6-C+ for Gear 4th, and likely High 6-C for Kong Gun and King Cobra, I don't think the 3x Multiplier is reliable enough for the scale as in the official manga volume scan, Doflamingo says several times stronger instead of straight up 3 times, which gets rid of the multipliers validity

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That doesn't get rid of the validity. The definition of several is more than two but not by much. Ergo it would he a 3 times increase. We have no reason not to take the multiplier as accurate here.

 

[The_Calaca]

And in the OP we got the definition of several which is more than two but not too many so 3x is a reasonable lowball which fits with the other translation.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Didn't notice that, I still don't agree with straight up High 6-C but If majority agree to it, I'll concede

 

[The_Calaca]

Reading Dressrosa again I found scans for Luffy vs Doffy to settle which form should scale:

Ch. 759
Luffy attempts to attack Doffy but the Parasited Bellamy intercepts him

Red Hawk is the first attack Luffy landed which is powerful enough to make Doffy spill blood

760
Doffy was fine afterwards and only a bit damaged

761
Octopus Stamps vs Doffy's clone

769
Luffy apparently destroyed the Doffy-double with G2

780
Gear 3rd against Spider-Web

Luffy tries a Hawk Gattling but Doffy dodged it

781
A defenseless Doffy got hit by Luffy's Jet Stamp

782
Doffy even needed Armament to block a simple Armored kick

And Luffy hit him afterwards many times before Doffy dodged the Eagle Bazooka.

Note: This was after Gamma Knife and Countershock so Doffy was clearly weakened so this is here only to debunk if someone tries to bring these scans to argue Base Luffy scaling to Doffy.

783
Doffy dodging other Eagle Bazooka

Even Base Luffy was matching Weakened Doffy.

Grizzly Magnum was easily dodged.

And after that Luffy used Gear 4th and stomped Doffy.

Conclusion
Without defense Doffy can get hit/hurt by regular Gear 2nd's attacks and not just Red Hawk.

I don't care if you disagree with if G2 scales or not cause I'm just bringing this to discuss it.

Doffy didn't let Luffy use Gear 3rd and with his ability he can prevent most attacks but the ones that landed clearly damaged him. Gear 3rd was useless because the only time Luffy used it he was stopped with DF ability and not physical durability.

So what do you think? IMO Gear 2nd could scale to Doffy with the other scaling chains supoorting this. Actually those chains makes this more credible.