Yellow-Haired Demon vs White-Haired Goddess

[Litentric_Teon]

That's a long time. I feel bad for her.

Possibly. All that's really required is for the spell to be inside the person from Zeon's interpretation. And absorbing Bao doesn't nullify the hatred within it. The spell itself is an attack spell that eats other spells and absolves others of their hatred when struck. The hatred within it is a product of what its devoured. So negating the effects of the spell is different from literally taking away the potent emotions within the thing. Earth, fire, lightning, those things don't have such concepts attached to them. Whereas Bao does. Absorbing emotions is far different from absorbing energy or even mass. So I don't think that nothing would happen at all. There would surely be some effect. That aside, the spell doesn't necessarily exist inside Gash as a dragon. But rather, it seems to be a specific technique passed from father to son since they both control lightning.

Nonetheless, I still hold that she can't absorb Bao in a reasonable timeframe for it to not attempt to devour her at the same time since her absorption comes from her palm and isn't omnidirectional. I think teleporting out the way is a better option, though I guess it can loop around and attack her again.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

That's a long time. I feel bad for her.
Possibly. All that's really required is for the spell to be inside the person from Zeon's interpretation. And absorbing Bao doesn't nullify the hatred within it. The spell itself is an attack spell that eats other spells and absolves others of their hatred when struck. The hatred within it is a product of what its devoured. So negating the effects of the spell is different from literally taking away the potent emotions within the thing. Earth, fire, lightning, those things don't have such concepts attached to them. Whereas Bao does. Absorbing emotions is far different from absorbing energy or even mass. So I don't think that nothing would happen at all. There would surely be some effect. That aside, the spell doesn't necessarily exist inside Gash as a dragon. But rather, it seems to be a specific technique passed from father to son since they both control lightning.

Nonetheless, I still hold that she can't absorb Bao in a reasonable timeframe for it to not attempt to devour her at the same time since her absorption comes from her palm and isn't omnidirectional. I think teleporting out the way is a better option, though I guess it can loop around and attack her again.

Kaguya's absorption comes from her body. It's omnidirectional.

Question though, can Gash do other othings while using it? In the chapters you linked, he and Kiyo are stationary.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Oh. Nvm in that case.

It depends. Normally they can only cast one spell at a time, but they cast two in quick succession while Clear was having his body controlled. And they still had their flight spell (and the spell that lets them survive in multiple environments) active while Kyanchome's spell was cast. The golden book seems to remove some of the rules that spells typically have. So they should be able to have multiple things in effect at once as they did against Clear. It's funny that you asked this because I had to reread that last fight a while ago to ask myself the same thing.

 

[YungManzi]

Kaguya BFR's into ice and calls it a day.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Oh. Nvm in that case.
It depends. Normally they can only cast one spell at a time, but they cast two in quick succession while Clear was having his body controlled. And they still had their flight spell (and the spell that lets them survive in multiple environments) active while Kyanchome's spell was cast. The golden book seems to remove some of the rules that spells typically have. So they should be able to have multiple things in effect at once as they did against Clear. It's funny that you asked this because I had to reread that last fight a while ago to ask myself the same thing.

So....There's precedence in the manga showing they can, but to what extent is not quantifiable?

The reason I ask this is because, Say they're using Baou and Kaguya dodges, right, if Kaguya creates a portal behind them and shoots a Ash-Bone through it at them, would they be able to Block or Dodge or cast another defensive spell to block. Yet maintain control over Baou and continue an assault simultaneously? What happens if Gash and/or Kiyomaru loses concentration? Can Baou be maintained?

From your response, it seems like the answer to this crossing over into a gray area (Speculation).

But I am curious. Kaguya "can" easily kill Kiyomaru, even if it's vis collateral damage, but if on the off chance he dies, what would happen to Gash? I know you said if he dies, Gash would probably be given a new partner, but what's the time frame for that? Is it immediately? Etc, and without a partner, can Gash actually do anything himself?

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Yung

That really doesn't take into account their precog at all.

@Final Order

So, any character in the series can cancel their spell at any time. So if she teleports, they could always cancel out their current spell to cast another one. So in short, yes. Especially because of Kiyo's precog, he would know what's happening and what he can do about it. As far as whether or not they can move during it, Kiyo certainly can. As for Gash, I'm not sure. Probably not, but Kiyo can carry Gash with him.

It's very unlikely that either Gash or Kiyo will lose concentration. For one, Gash loses consciousness during most of his spells, so he physically cannot lose concentration. As for Kiyo, it just feels immensely unlikely. The guy was literally dying at one point and still managing to cast spells according to a plan he had made. So it's doubtful that most things Kaguya can do will cause him to lose concentration. She'd either have to use some hax, or really put in an effort to make him lose concentration. And even then, their spells are reliant on heart power.

If Kiyo dies, then it was speculated by Kiyo himself that Gash would receive a new partner. So we have no clue what would happen. And no, because of the laws of the 1000 year demon war, demons on earth can only access their power with a human partner using their respective book.

Though Kiyo dying due to collateral is unlikely as well, seeing as how everyone and their mom in the verse has decent AoE. You'd have to sit down and think how he survived against a foe that can obliterate mountains, or one who can pull folks apart with gravity to see how much his precog and genius level intelligence really does for him when his primary moves are lightning based. And then give him hax and he really becomes a bit of a monster.

 

[YungManzi]

@Liten

You can't dodge Kaguya's instant teleportation, so I don't see how that matters.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Yung

I'd have to argue about how often she does that as her very first move. And also, about how truly 'instant' it is. If it requires thought, then it's not instant. If it only places them inside ice (rather than turn them into ice), it's something that Gash can very well break out of. It's certainly not an end all be all by any stretch.

 

[YungManzi]

@Liten

Regardless Gash would still be BFR'd.Amenominaka was literally the second thing she used against Naruto and Sasuke. And part of that entire fight was PIS/CIS because of her obsession with reclaiming all chakra in the world, including Naruto and Sasuke's chakra.

If she wanted to, she could have immediately killed them are BFR'd them and left them there (Which is exactly what she did to Sasuke).

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Litentric

I'd have to disagree with notion that it's not likely Kaguya can make them lose concentration. Kiyo has precog, simply seeing the future doesn't mean he has a response to everything. Kaguya herself has pre-cog even with Rinne-Sharingan.

It's not stated, but I take it the battle is "In Character w/ Intent to Kill". The issue with Kaguya is that, for half of her battle, it was her without the Intent to kill. Kaguya IC, w/ Intent to Kill:

• Uses Ash-Bone as her Primary fighting weapon (One Hit KO)

• Uses 80 GVP as Mostly Defensive.

• Has her absorption at the ready

• Uses Shinra Tensei only when Dealing with Dozens of Combatants

• Willing to teleport

• Only Instantly swaps dimensions when she is in danger or needs to stop people from moving.

So, that being said, Kaguya would simply dash at Them first or Fire Ash-Bones from long range, one as a diversion, the other through a portal behind them.

In Character, does Gash and Kiyo Open with Baou? Also, is Baou their only attack at that level? Keep in mind, Kaguya has the AP/Durability advantage. She's casually destroying the defenses of Characters stronger than Gash off bat, so simply blocking won't do and the usage of that technique isn't instant from what you showed.

Also, just to let you know, Kaguya will potentially be getting Invulnerability and Statistics Amplification via IT soon.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Sharingan precog is more like seeing the enemy's muscle movements and seeing what they'll do next. It wouldn't let her know that a giant lightning dragon's going to come out of Gash's mouth because he doesn't use handsigns that let her know what jutsu he's going to do.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Sharingan precog is more like seeing the enemy's muscle movements and seeing what they'll do next. It wouldn't let her know that a giant lightning dragon's going to come out of Gash's mouth because he doesn't use handsigns that let her know what jutsu he's going to do.

This is misleading, no offense. The muscle movement argument is valid only for 1 and 2 tomoe Sharingan. Not fully Mature Shatingan.



Fully Mature Sharingan literally sees images of their opponents, several moves ahead, before they act. It can't pre-cog pure energy, but still.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, that's from reading their physical movements to know they're going to move in that direction.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Yeah, that's from reading their physical movements to know they're going to move in that direction.

No, not serval moves ahead. And you definitely wouldn't be able to tell where and how someone will appear behind you and attack, before they even move from infront of you.

I'm sorry, but this is pre-cog, not muscle movement prediction. Again, that's 1 and 2 Tomoe Sharingan, not a fully Mature 3 Tomoe and Mangekyo Sharingan.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's precog on muscle movement prediction. That's why they aren't able to see attacks that don't rely on muscle movements.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

It's precog on muscle movement prediction. That's why they aren't able to see attacks that don't rely on muscle movements.

And I'm telling you, Pre-Cog via Muscular Movement cannot predict movement Several Steps ahead of a single movement nor where/how an attack will be made from behind before a character makes the move.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Kaguya FRA

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's precog on muscle movement prediction. That's why they aren't able to see attacks that don't rely on muscle movements.

And I'm telling you, Pre-Cog via Muscular Movement cannot predict movement Several Steps ahead of a single movement nor where/how an attack will be made from behind before a character makes the move.

I mean, that's how it works.

 

[I_am_myself_You_are_you]

Kaguya FRA

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Thank you all for your votes.

@Dragon and TheFinalOrder

I'm not sure why Kaguya's precog is that big a deal. It's strictly inferior to what Gash and Kiyo have.

Also, Bao is simply their strongest attack. Their other shin spells are fully capable of harming Clear. Bao is just massively superior to them, to the point that it one shot Clear. And I mean, if Kaguya starts with bone killing ash + portal, and Kiyo starts with "How do I win" + Mind manip, I think that's more than worth thinking about. Kaguya can't resist having her brain literally hijacked. Plus, bone killing ash acts as durability negation, not unlike Clear's annihilation type spells which disintegrate on contact. So Gash can actually block it with his mantle without using a spell. He has resistance to durability negation on his profile for that reason. But if for any reason that would fail, Kiyo would know a split second after the match starts.

I already think TheFinalOrder has given valid reasons for why Kaguya could indeed win. But not many people on here really know the Gash Bell verse in much depth. So much of my purpose is to simply bring to light what they're capable of. And their mind manipulation is their most potent hax here.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Gash and Kiyo fra

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Thank you for your vote.

@Rocker and Astral

Are either of you casting a vote?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Litentric

• Kiyomaru having better Pre-Cog doesn't change anything. He nor Gash can make a move without her knowing it prior.

• The issue I'm seeing here is that, Clear's Durability is questionable. On the profile it says Possibly 5-B and the reasoning given is "Gash's most powerful spell couldn't kill him", but you say it One Shot him. This means Clear's Durability isn't 5-B, which means Neither is Gash's other spells. Kaguya can literally no-sell Gash's AP with all of his spells, including the AP of Bao, which puts him at Baseline 5-B as you said (But ofcourse there's the Hatred Consumption stuff).

• Speaking of which, Gash's Durability is Unknow for their tier. That's not Good for his odds of winning.

• Explain Kiyomaru's Mind Manipulation, because it's not on their profile, and Naruto characters have innate resistance to Mind Fuckery, lol, especially those with Sharingan. Even Kaguya has Mind Manipulation with it. Not saying it won't work, but it does depend.

• Gash can't block her Ash-Blones. It's AP (Which is separate from its Ability, which is Matter Manipulation, not Durability Negation) is superior to both his AP/Durability. He'd have to dodge or Block it with something else.

• Knowing about something doesn't mean you have the ability to stop it.

I actually like this debate. It's nice and calm, unlike most other debates!

 

[AstralKing7]

Naw I don't know about Gash so I'm not voting

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@TheFinalOrder

That's true. But I suppose it depends on what said move is. She can see it with precog since Kiyo has to cast a spell and many of Gash's spells come from his mouth. But Kiyo would already know what her responses are due to his precog is what I'm getting at here. Like, his precog anticipates her precog and what she'll do.

If I said that Gash's most powerful spell couldn't kill him, then that's likely a typo. Gash's most powerful spell did kill him. Or, send him back to the demon world once his book was burned, since he's still alive in the demon world.

Yeah. That's because Clear couldn't actually land a single blow on Gash because precog + body puppetry + mind manip was very effective against Clear's durability negation, even though he also has power null. But Gash's mantle can stand up to attacks that bypass durability like Clear's annihilation type spells. Hence why I said it would useful against ash bones. Though Gash is powerful enough to be two shot by durability negation that should disintegrate someone. Like, his body literally didn't disintegrate when it should have. So his body is durable to the point where durability negation on that scale can't one shot him. Feel free to take this one as you will.

Right, my apologies. Most of the golden book spells likely aren't listed because they actually come from other demons in the series. Their (Really Kyanchome and Parco Folgore's) mind manipulation works as follows: Once the spell is cast, they literally hijacks the person's mind. This allows them to control their thoughts and even functions. Such as making them see illusions, or making them think they've attacked when they really haven't.

Ash bones is AP? Oh, I thought it turned things to Ash similar to how Clear's attacks disintegrate things. If that's the case, then it would have to be dodged. It being matter manip does indeed change things. So it's more transmutation as opposed to durability negation. I gotcha.

True. But in Gash and Kiyo's case, they do. Kiyo is definitely the type to just control her body, and make her close her eyes, hands. Fly her into space if she can't breath up there. Manipulate her mind so that she can't defend against their ultimate attack. Etc.

Same here. It's pleasant. Also, if you have any other ideas for a match for these two, please let me know.

@Astral

Alright.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

BUMP!

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Kaguya's AP increased. She really can just one shot now.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Aww, dang.