Yami vs Renatus

[Arkenis]

Yami vs Renatus

Equal Speed
Heart Kingdom Joint Struggle Arc
SBA

Yami:
Ren:

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Is his regeneration based of magic power?

Because he looks like to be Dante but without anything to stop Yami

And him not having a Speed, Yami can blitz as easily as Doom it seems, mana zone and several cuts later and it should to be over for Renatus

Ilusions are useless against Yami

And finally, Yami can simply go to the toilet and do whatever he wants there because he is 594 petatons while Thanatos is just 78 petatons, if you use the other key, Yami is 13 petatons and with an attack that can overwhelm opponents of his same AP in death thrust, the summon can be defeated right? Because Yami would opt to use dimension slash against something that is stronger than him

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Is his regeneration based of magic power?

Who knows

Because he looks like to be Dante but without anything to stop Yami

Have you even checked Dooms speed? Yami needs Mftl+ speed which is listed on Dooms profile to wear Rentaus down.

And him not having a Speed, Yami can blitz as easily as Doom it seems, mana zone and several cuts later and it should to be over for Renatus

What part of you don't understand EQ speed? Also Renatus also has a speed boost from Summons.
Both Rentaus and Yami has only one speed boost so speed shouldn't be much of an issue.

Ilusions are useless against Yami

Why?

And finally, Yami can simply go to the toilet and do whatever he wants there because he is 594 petatons while Thanatos is just 78 petatons, if you use the other key, Yami is 13 petatons and with an attack that can overwhelm opponents of his same AP in death thrust, the summon can be defeated right? Because Yami would opt to use dimension slash against something that is stronger than him

594 petatons comes from a different key stop using that it has nothing to do with what's written in the OP.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

The regeneration does not come from magic i'm pretty sure. Going by the fanbook, from what I've heard, Renatus only became immortal later on in his life, as opposed to it being standard with his personal magic.

Also, from what we do know, Renatus can keep fighting despite being worn down for like, 10 hours against Doom? So this fight will last a long time, since Renatus can regenerate from being diced to cubes and chunks.

 

[Arkenis]

DS is pretty big, could his whole body not be engulfed in it?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Have you even checked Dante's speed? Yami needs Mftl+ speed which is listed on Danate's profile to wear Rentaus down.

First of all, chill

594 comes from a different key stop using that it has nothing to do with what's written in the OP.

I read "SBA" which means the latest Key, I did not see the other part and I argued saying what would happen with both AP of different keys

Why?

Ki

What part of you don't understand EQ speed?

Mana zone is boost on top of Mana Skin and death thrust is condensing that mana zone in one attack, clearly superior to one single boost of a character who does not have even speed to begin with

And if you are saying that "no, you need MFTL+ speed to overwhelm him", no? He has no clear speed (and blocking a normal attack of Domina would be subsonic at worst, which makes Doom overwhelming him extremely easy), any speed boost should overwhelm him

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Mana zone is boost on top of Mana Skin and death thrust is condensing that mana zone in one attack, clearly superior to one single boost of a character who does not have even speed to begin with

Just because we don't know his regular speed in the first place doesn't mean it plays any sort of role here, we only need to look at the boosts the characters get instead. Still, it's not like we have much info on his fight with Doom. But just looking at the magic system in general for Mashle, Summons should provide its own hefty boost to speed by itself, due to it boosting overall magic power by a lot, which gets transferred to the physicals of the wizard.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Just because we don't know his regular speed in the first place doesn't mean it plays any sort of role here, we only need to look at the boosts the characters get instead. Still, it's not like we have much info on his fight with Doom. But just looking at the magic system in general for Mashle, Summons should provide its own hefty boost to speed by itself, due to it boosting overall magic power by a lot, which gets transferred to the physicals of the wizard.

Are summons stated to be "several" times faster/stronger than normal magic for example?

"Many" times?

"Massively stronger"?

Because depending of the word, is minimun 2 times, 4 to 10 times at maximun, and Yami has 3-4 of this thanks to Ki (increase in reaction speed and combat speed), Mana skin, mana zone and finally condending said mana zone which is a bigger boost

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

First of all, chill

Brother what part of the replies looks Iike aggressive? I just asked have you checked the profile that's all.

Ki

What it's gonna do against a character who has aura suppression?

Mana zone is boost on top of Mana Skin and death thrust is condensing that mana zone in one attack, clearly superior to one single boost of a character who does not have even speed to begin with

It's consistent with Ryoh and Rayne going toe to toe with magic amps with characters like Doom, who increases his speed every time he increases his percentage. Renatus is a physical fighter and has more experience than Rayne and he obviously should be able to boost his body with magic like him.

Also, your arguments do not make any sense. Initial speed is equalized, so we go with both having the same speed in base form, and both have single amps later on. Therefore, it's not a big issue for Renatus.

And if you are saying that "no, you need MFTL+ speed to overwhelm him", no? He has no clear speed, any speed boost should overwhelm him

He only got overwhelmed by Doom's speed in the verse. His regeneration is top-notch, and he can fight for at least a week without food, so I don't see Yami keeping up for that long. In fact, we see Doom perception-blitzing Renatus, and Renatus still can keep regenerating initially. Having higher speed doesn't stop his regeneration. There is a specific limit for the speed needed for that to happen.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Are summons stated to be "several" times faster/stronger than normal magic for example?

"Many" times?

"Massively stronger"?

Because depending of the word, is minimun 2 times, 4 to 10 times at maximun, and Yami has 3-4 of this thanks to Ki (increase in reaction speed and combat speed), Mana skin, mana zone and finally condending said mana zone which is a bigger boost

Yes, in fact they're far superior to Secondths, which are superior to spells that can overcome the difference of 10x. I'm not sure why we haven't had the idea of having Summons also boost speed by 10x, since we know magic can enhance the physical body in its entirety.

If you need more supporting evidence, then eehhhh there's the anime, where Cell states something along the lines of "several magnitudes". I can go chapter hunting if needed though for references from the manga.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Supressing the Aura is enough to stop Yami from sensing his intention and emotions, predicting his movement and with Mana zone this becomes way superior? Supressing the aura is not letting others sense his magic, something every mage in BC do but Yami is not using magic sensing in the first place, if this is wrong I am sorry because I don't know how aura works in Mashle

It's consistent with Ryoh and Rayne going toe to toe with magic amps with characters like Doom, who increases his speed every time he increases his percentage. Rentaus is a physical fighter and has more experience than Rayne and he obviously should be able to boost his body with magic like him.

Yami was fighting evently against Dante at 60% and then the same at 80%, with each 1% being a boost greater than their base AP and Speed and Yami was still the superior fighter in speed

Now, if the speed blitz needs to be inmense and Yami can't do that to win, then Yami has no win condition, and funny enough, Jack would counter him, unless dimension slash cut him as a whole and just erase the body or his regen is less superior to what death thrush can destroy, because Yami can destroy 80% of Dante monster form torso who is like 5 metters (I think? At worse is 3 metters) and if he spams 2 of this on him, there is no body left, but it depends of how quickly Renatus can regen

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[AnAverageUsername]

Supressing the Aura is enough to stop Yami from sensing his intention and emotions, predicting his movement and with Mana zone this becomes way superior? Supressing the aura is not letting others sense his magic, something every mage in BC do but Yami is not using magic sensing in the first place, if this is wrong I am sorry because I don't know how aura works in Mashle

Wizards in Mashle do have auras, but it's only really flexed to noticeable levels when powering up or actively doing so consciously. Wizards can sense the presence of other wizards via their aura by concentrating to, but this ends up being circumvented by withholding one's aura.

Yami was fighting evently against Dante at 60% and then the same at 80%, with each 1% being a boost greater than their base AP and Speed and Yami was still the superior fighter in speed

Now, if the speed blitz needs to be inmense and Yami can't do that to win, then Yami has no win condition, and funny enough, Jack would counter him, unless dimension slash cut him as a whole and just erase the body or his regen is less superior to what death thrush can destroy, because Yami can destroy 80% of Dante monster form torso who is like 5 metters (I think? At worse is 3 metters) and if he spams 2 of this on him, there is no body left, but it depends of how quickly Renatus can regen

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Renatus is quick to replace himself with an illusionary copy to avoid what could potentially be a lethal attack. Even if Yami could sense that, Renatus can still use it to get himself out of a pickle.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Renatus is quick to replace himself with an illusionary copy to avoid what could potentially be a lethal attack. Even if Yami could sense that, Renatus can still use it to get himself out of a pickle.

Yami has higher range to just predict the teleport (via sensing intent because your aura explanation is "You can't sense my magic") and attack where he would teleport

Or is he also regenerating while teleporting? And I ask again, can Thanatos be destroyed? I saw in the anime one summon of a secondth being destroyed by Rayne, Yami would target the weapon with dimension slash at some point (or the weapon would get caught in the attack anyway)

After that, I don't have anything more to say, just wait for others opinion, Renatus has more Stamina, more AP in thirds, speed is debatable and regen, Yami can just predict everything from him and I read the general abilities of the mages, their damage reduction is similar to how Black Clover characters can create forcefields

Last thing, the proyectile of Thanatos could be absorb with Black hole or nullified with Black Moon, if renatus is under Black Moon, all of his magic is nullified, if his regeneration is magical (but we don't know, but the series is magic based so what the **** is he then?) , black moon hard counters him as it erase magic power from the enemy too

And yes, I remembered black moon now, after saying that Yami has no win condition, I am ********

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Brother what part of the replies looks Iike aggressive? I just asked have you checked the profile that's all.

It seems I am tired and I can't think at 100% capacity when I am forgetting powers or not understanding the rules of the fight, sorry if I bothered you and I will go to rest

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yami has higher range to just predict the teleport (via sensing intent because your aura explanation is "You can't sense my magic") and attack where he would teleport

That just leads to mind games at that point

Or is he also regenerating while teleporting? And I ask again, can Thanatos be destroyed? I saw in the anime one summon of a secondth being destroyed by Rayne, Yami would target the weapon with dimension slash at some point (or the weapon would get caught in the attack anyway)

We don't know if Thirds can be destroyed. The only one we've seen capable of doing this is Doom, and he's built different. I don't think comparing it to a Secondth like Muduros Devilus is fair at all, since the Inclination of a God far outclasses it.

After that, I don't have anything more to say, just wait for others opinion, Renatus has more Stamina, more AP in thirds, speed is debatable and regen, Yami can just predict everything from him and I read the general abilities of the mages, their damage reduction is similar to how Black Clover characters can create forcefields

Big stamina is always a thing for Mashle characters

Last thing, the proyectile of Thanatos

Not a projectile. Renatus just scratches Yami and has his blood make a pact with death, causing him to be connected to Thanatos

could be absorb with Black hole or nullified with Black Moon, if renatus is under Black Moon, all of his magic is nullified, if his regeneration is magical (but we don't know, but the series is magic based so what the **** is he then?)

built different

, black moon hard counters him as it erase magic power from the enemy too

And yes, I remembered black moon now, after saying that Yami has no win condition, I am ********

I don't know what that is. Mind giving some scans?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It seems I am tired and I can't think at 100% capacity when I am forgetting powers or not understanding the rules of the fight, sorry if I bothered you and I will go to rest

No problem It happens sometimes.

 

[Arkenis]

Also Yami clearly has a win con, Doom in base beat Ren and Doom had less hax to use in that fight. Manazone will make this easier for him.

Also, from what we do know, Renatus can keep fighting despite being worn down for like, 10 hours against Doom? So this fight will last a long time, since Renatus can regenerate from being diced to cubes and chunks.

When was it said 10hrs?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also Yami clearly has a win con, Doom in base beat Ren and Doom had less hax to use in that fight. Manazone will make this easier for him.


When was it said 10hrs?

It's somewhere around that time. it took Meliadoul turning the life key 10 hours to get it to 50%, and by that Point Renatus had only just unleashed his Summons and Thirds. Renatus had began to fight Doom at 20% of the life key being turned I'm pretty sure.

 

[Arkenis]

Yami might be cooked by this regen merchant

 

[Epsilon_R]

Sorry I'm reading y'all comments but can't understand shit so I'll restart the thing for myself.

What stops Yami from eventually blitzing and knocking out the guy with Iai Slash?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yami might be cooked by this regen merchant

God dammit you just summed up his skillset, lmao

Sorry I'm reading y'all comments but can't understand shit so I'll restart the thing for myself.

What stops Yami from eventually blitzing and knocking out the guy with Iai Slash?

I mean for one, it'd have to be a pretty large amplification. For two, high-mid regen.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah the comments earlier were lowkey pissing me off but overall unreadable.

So I’ll continue from where @Epsilon_R restarted from.

---

God dammit you just summed up his skillset, lmao

I mean for one, it'd have to be a pretty large amplification. For two, high-mid regen.

Yami’s mana zone is already a speed amp, so when condensed he blitzes with iai and avoids attacks all while black moon is constantly active to negate whatever Ren does inside of its range. When mana zone is super condensed, he blitzes those who can react to the previous blitz with a move known as Death Thrust (DT). So DT is a multi layered blitz.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah the comments earlier were lowkey pissing me off but overall unreadable.

Oh, sorry if I was I was apart of that

So I’ll continue from where @Epsilon_R restarted from.

---

Yami’s mana zone is already a speed amp, so when condensed he blitzes with iai and avoids attacks all while black moon is constantly active to negate whatever Ren does inside of its range. When mana zone is super condensed, he blitzes those who can react to the previous blitz with a move known as Death Thrust (DT). So DT is a multi layered blitz.

Ah, multi layer blitz to those comparable yeah? Mmmm, really should've though about our Mashle speed sections more, with that whole multipliers with Summons. Though, uh, just realized something. Doesn't Renatus' Summons AP and Durability far outclass Yami's own stats? Since that's what I'm getting here from both profiles. Black Moon doesn't negate all magic, just spells right? So couldn't Renatus just, rip off his own arm and slap Yami with it if he gets the chance? Which would be a convo in and of itself.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I don't know what that is. Mind giving some scans?

Mereoleona is not saying that his spells are nullified, but her own mana, the source of his magic power

And I don't get why the earlier comments are unreadable

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Mereoleona is not saying that his spells are nullified, but her own mana, the source of his magic power

I'm not sure if this is a pierrot thing or not, but the attack looked lame. She says it's negating her mana, but her spells were still casting? And she could withstand that attack. What's the deal with it??

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I'm not sure if this is a pierrot thing or not, but the attack looked lame. She says it's negating her mana, but her spells were still casting? And she could withstand that attack. What's the deal with it??

Black Moon is an aura or space that surrounds Yami that Yami creates that nullifies spells and the mana of the opponent

And this is the moment Yami discovered how to use Black Moon, he does not even know what was happening in the first place, later against Dante is when he has mastered the ability and have a bigger range

And her spell was still being casted because Mereoleona is not inside Black Moon, but she is sensing how the mana of that part of the attack was nullified or second option, Black Hole is magic absorption and Black Moon is literally Black Hole but in a bigger area thanks to Mana Zone, so being near Black Moon sucks mana and nullifies it

Either way, if Renatus is near Yami, he can't cast spells, no illusion dodging, and Yami starts with Black Moon in this key, his first fight is learning that, his second fight he uses it against Dante

"The full capabilities of his Thirds are unknown as it was quickly destroyed by Doom in its first appearance."

Thirds can be destroyed, Dimension Slash would do the trick

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Black Moon is an aura or space that surrounds Yami that Yami creates that nullifies spells and the mana of the opponent

And this is the moment Yami discovered how to use Black Moon, he does not even know what was happening in the first place, later against Dante is when he has mastered the ability and have a bigger range

And her spell was still being casted because Mereoleona is not inside Black Moon, but she is sensing how the mana of that part of the attack was nullified or second option, Black Hole is magic absorption and Black Moon is literally Black Hole but in a bigger area thanks to Mana Zone, so being near Black Moon sucks mana and nullifies it

Either way, if Renatus is near Yami, he can't cast spells, no illusion dodging, and Yami starts with Black Moon in this key, his first fight is learning that, his second fight he uses it against Dante

"The full capabilities of his Thirds are unknown as it was quickly destroyed by Doom in its first appearance."

Thirds can be destroyed, Dimension Slash would do the trick

Destroying the third won't stop him there. Rayne was able to Regenerate his summons. Also there Renatus is narratively stated had good insights on opponent. He ain't Fallin for Yami's attacks. He would just maintain his distance and attack with his undead abilities.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh, sorry if I was I was apart of that

And I don't get why the earlier comments are unreadable

~~Aside from the tone of some of the posts~~ there were some useful comments that went unnoticed which led to claims being made that would’ve been avoided if the comments were addressed. for instance how would Aura suppression counter Ki? That wasn’t discussed. Instead I started seeing topics on the rules and I got confused and just gave up reading. Although I did see some good points in BC’s favor like Black Moon which is being discussed right now which is good.

Overall I just got tired of reading previous posts that’s all.

Ah, multi layer blitz to those comparable yeah? Mmmm, really should've though about our Mashle speed sections more, with that whole multipliers with Summons. Though, uh, just realized something. Doesn't Renatus' Summons AP and Durability far outclass Yami's own stats? Since that's what I'm getting here from both profiles. Black Moon doesn't negate all magic, just spells right? So couldn't Renatus just, rip off his own arm and slap Yami with it if he gets the chance? Which would be a convo in and of itself.

What is his value compared to Yami’s?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Black Moon is an aura or space that surrounds Yami that Yami creates that nullifies spells and the mana of the opponent

And this is the moment Yami discovered how to use Black Moon, he does not even know what was happening in the first place, later against Dante is when he has mastered the ability and have a bigger range

And her spell was still being casted because Mereoleona is not inside Black Moon, but she is sensing how the mana of that part of the attack was nullified or second option, Black Hole is magic absorption and Black Moon is literally Black Hole but in a bigger area thanks to Mana Zone, so being near Black Moon sucks mana and nullifies it

Either way, if Renatus is near Yami, he can't cast spells, no illusion dodging, and Yami starts with Black Moon in this key, his first fight is learning that, his second fight he uses it against Dante

Ooohhhh, my dumbass was taking the name literally lmao.

"The full capabilities of his Thirds are unknown as it was quickly destroyed by Doom in its first appearance."

Thirds can be destroyed, Dimension Slash would do the trick

Perhaps that will. However, will it even do anything? I mean, obviously the effects of the Thirds would be nullified, but for Renatus himself, what kind of adverse effects would he be subjected to? We have no answer to that, as the only two times we've seen a Thirds destroyed are: A. Offscreened for Renatus; and B. Ryoh was caught in the crossfire so he was felled. But, I think it'd be wise to say that Renatus carries on fighting with his Summons only.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

~~Aside from the tone of some of the posts~~ there were some useful comments that went unnoticed which led to claims being made that would’ve been avoided if the comments were addressed. for instance how would Aura suppression counter Ki? That wasn’t discussed. Instead I started seeing topics on the rules and I got confused and just gave up reading. Although I did see some good points in BC’s favor like Black Moon which is being discussed right now which is good.

So, how would aura suppression counter ki, actually? Yeah, we should probably talk about that, if it's important. Can ki keep up with an opponent who fights with their body parts being sentient? Like, Yami is focused on fighting Renatus' decapitated head, and not on his body which is moving around for a sneak attack, something like that.

Overall I just got tired of reading previous posts that’s all.

Fair

What is his value compared to Yami’s?

Looking at Yami's page, the man is 9.43 Petatons in AP and durability, 12.58 Petatons with condense for AP, and higher with other stuff. Meanwhile, Renatus is 7.86 Petatons in base, so he's weaker on that front. However, the moment he rips out his spine and casts Thanatos, God of Death, his power spikes up to 78.6 Petatons. He follows this up by immediately summoning his Thirds if he's gotten a scratch off his opponent with his sharp nails, which will cause the opponent's blood to enter a pact with death, and will allow Renatus' attacks to never miss.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Ki detects the following:
Slight Muscle movement
Lifeless objects like rocks and debris
Emotional state and the change of it
Stare
Smell
Their presence in general.

So yeah Yami should pretty much be able to detect it no matter what.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Ki detects the following:
Slight Muscle movement
Lifeless objects like rocks and debris
Emotional state and the change of it
Stare
Smell
Their presence in general.

So yeah Yami should pretty much be able to detect it no matter what.

Then that's good for Yami. I had to ask since I haven't read or watched Black Clover, but that's neat.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Then that's good for Yami. I had to ask since I haven't read or watched Black Clover, but that's neat.

What are you waiting for

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So, how would aura suppression counter ki, actually? Yeah, we should probably talk about that, if it's important. Can ki keep up with an opponent who fights with their body parts being sentient? Like, Yami is focused on fighting Renatus' decapitated head, and not on his body which is moving around for a sneak attack, something like that.

No Aura suppression wont work. And yes Yami can sense the ki of multiple targets. They don't have to be alive too according to BC at least.

The skill also gives Yami precog and instinctive reactions if you have forgotten.

Looking at Yami's page, the man is 9.43 Petatons in AP and durability, 12.58 Petatons with condense for AP, and higher with other stuff. Meanwhile, Renatus is 7.86 Petatons in base, so he's weaker on that front. However, the moment he rips out his spine and casts Thanatos, God of Death, his power spikes up to 78.6 Petatons. He follows this up by immediately summoning his Thirds if he's gotten a scratch off his opponent with his sharp nails, which will cause the opponent's blood to enter a pact with death, and will allow Renatus' attacks to never miss.

Alright, Yami is skilled enough to avoid getting hit by a black hole from an opponent comparable to him. So with this skill in addition to not just mana zone but mana zone condensed. I don't see Yami being scratched any time soon. Yami could just wear his Thanatos down with Death Thrust.

Yami could also just beat him up before he casts Thanatos once he realizes through Ki precog that his next move will be bad news.

So im voting Yami for Dimension Slash, Speed Advantage, Power Nullification field via Mana Zone + Black Moon, Death Thrust spamming + Accelerated Development.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

No Aura suppression wont work. And yes Yami can sense the ki of multiple targets. They don't have to be alive too according to BC at least.

The skill also gives Yami precog and instinctive reactions if you have forgotten.

Ah, right, that was indeed brought up in Mash vs Asta

Alright, Yami is skilled enough to avoid getting hit by a black hole from an opponent comparable to him. So with this skill in addition to not just mana zone but mana zone condensed. I don't see Yami being scratched any time soon. Yami could just wear his Thanatos down with Death Thrust.

I don't think Yami is going to be able to wear down Thanatos if it's not casted. Renatus' Thirds, from what we know, is only activated under those circumstances, if he draws blood from the opponent. So really, I guess all Renatus is going to have to work with here is his regeneration and his Summons power, the spine-scythe.

Yami could also just beat him up before he casts Thanatos once he realizes through Ki precog that his next move will be bad news.

Yeah but beating him up is going to take a long time. Again, he fought against Doom for several hours (like, more than 8 to 10 hours going by the timeframe given) while getting diced up like a fish.

So im voting Yami for Dimension Slash, Speed Advantage, Power Nullification field via Mana Zone + Black Moon, Death Thrust spamming + Accelerated Development.

Fair, but I'm voting Renatus just from how long he can last in a fight, regeneration, massive AP advantage when he gets his Summons off, and speed boosts from it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Voting Renatus

• He doesn't need to physically touch Yami draw blood he literally has undead hands spamming out of nowhere to attack Yami. His thirds is unavoidable and has big AP difference.
• Dimensional Slash ain't killing Rentaus. Renatus last longer than Yami. Overall I'm betting on stamina and immortality.
• Power null doesn't nullify immortality without feats.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Voting Renatus

• He doesn't need to physically touch Yami draw blood he literally has undead hands spamming out of nowhere to attack Yami. His thirds is unavoidable and has big AP difference.

The hands get negated via Black Moon. His thirds has nothing in profile that protects it from Dimension Slash.

• Dimensional Slash ain't killing Rentaus. Renatus last longer than Yami. Overall I'm betting on stamina and immortality.

Killing isn't necessary, Yami can just knock him out with the back of his blade.

Voting Yami

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The hands get negated via Black Moon.

Show me proof for Yami negating Summoning with Black moon.

His thirds has nothing in profile that protects it from Dimension Slash.

Who said anything about protection . I don't remember anyone claiming DS can be blocked.

Killing isn't necessary, Yami can just knock him out with the back of his blade.

Prove he can knock out an opponent who is relative to him and same speed. Even with Mana Zone or whatever amping speed isn't bypassing Renatus extra protection from his summoning unless it's a dimension slash and I don't see DS knocking down Renatus

Voting Yami

Yeah voting Yami without proving your point? First prove your point for Yami knocking out his opponents with same sts as him. Renatus and Yami almost has same AP and Durability in the base.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Show me proof for Yami negating Summoning with Black moon

Black Moon negates Mana itself, Mana is the source of all Magic so it already negates all forms of magic.

You know what, let's assume Yami can't negate it, he can still absorb them with his magic.

Who said anything about protection . I don't remember anyone claiming DS can be blocked.

I never said you did? Yami just destroys the thirds, that's it.

Prove he can knock out an opponent who is relative to him and same speed.

Alright. They are all comparable to Yami.

Even with Mana Zone or whatever amping speed isn't bypassing Renatus extra protection from his summoning unless it's a dimension slash and I don't see DS knocking down Renatus

Yeah voting Yami without proving your point? First prove your point for Yami knocking out his opponents with same sts as him. Renatus and Yami almost has same AP and Durability

From the very beginning, I've asked what stops Yami from just blitzing and knocking the dude off. You literally admitted to Yami's amps and the fact that they have comparable AP, so asking me to prove Yami can knock out someone comparable to himself (when IRL you can knock out someone far stronger than you) is... nonsensical at best?

Now that I have proved the obvious, can I finally say Yami blitzes and knock Renatus out ?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Black Moon negates Mana itself, Mana is the source of all Magic so it already negates all forms of magic.

This is NLF. Show someones Summonings getting negated by Black moon in Black Clover.

You know what, let's assume Yami can't negate it, he can still absorb them with his magic.

Renatus summons can be resummoned despite getting destroyed.

I never said you did? Yami just destroys the thirds, that's simple.

What makes you think Yami will have the time to do that? You are acting like Yami doesn't need to stretch his hand to fire Dimension Slash, meanwhile Renatus's AP will be enough to one-shot Yami because of the homing attack, which Yami can't dodge. Also Renatus doesn't even need Thirds his AP will be already spiked on the Summons thirds is just higher level that's all.

Summons can be Regenerated even if it's gets destroyed. Shown by Rayne. Innocent Zero also Regenerates his wand. So Yami isn't doing much.

Alright. They are all comparable to Yami.

Can you upload this is on Gyze because Imgur is not working for me.

From the very beginning, I've asked what stops Yami from just blitzing and knocking the dude off.

Both of their base speeds are equalized, so it's not going to be an instant blitz. Also, if we are arguing based on character, Yami doesn't start by knocking out his opponents as far as I know. In this key as far as I know.

You literally admitted to Yami's amps and the fact that they have comparable AP,

His in-character moves are blitzing and trying to one-shot his opponents. Renatus also has amps with his summons, which Yami can't bypass with his normal attacks unless he uses DS.

Check the key specified in the OP for Yami.

so asking me to prove Yami can knock out someone comparable to himself (when IRL you can knock out someone far stronger than you) is... nonsensical at best?

Someone in real life doing something doesn't matter here. Without proof, saying a character can knock his opponents down with the same speed without feats is meaningless.