Jigen vs Doom

[Arkenis]

Doom vs Jigen

Top 10 New Gen list

For 5-C
Equal speed
SBA

Jigen: Arkenis
Doom:

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I got Doom winning this. I'll comment on this later.

 

[Arkenis]

How is Doom seeing the microscopic rods going into his head or blocking microscopic Jigen from slapping the back of his head

 

[AnAverageUsername]

How is Doom seeing the microscopic rods going into his head or blocking microscopic Jigen from slapping the back of his head

I mean I'm just going to waist for Elde to make the case first. Considering the fact that I'm currently gaming.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Ngl with jigen's superiority in strength... He'd just KO doom as his starting move would be shrinking to then hit his opponent/spawn rods in his opponents body. What can doom do before this happens

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Ngl with jigen's superiority in strength... He'd just KO doom as his starting move would be shrinking to then hit his opponent/spawn rods in his opponents body. What can doom do before this happens

Even with Kama, it's only a 2.3x difference in power, it's not that much of a superiority (especially when Mashle characters fight like they have no pain receptors.) Also, regen.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Even with Kama, it's only a 2.3x difference in power, it's not that much of a superiority (especially when Mashle characters fight like they have no pain receptors.) Also, regen.

Wait i might be tripping... How many exatons does doom scale to physically? Im reading something wrong cuz isn't his summon 5-C only? + I mean, with a couple dozen to hundreds of hits at MFTL+ speeds from a character you can't perceive or sense WHO IS even slightly stronger than you are..... What's the counter to that? It would take a few moments to fully KO doom in such a circumstance. Especially the rods that spawn inside your body, what is doom doing about that?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Wait i might be tripping... How many exatons does doom scale to physically?

78.6 Exatons

Im reading something wrong cuz isn't his summon 5-C only?

Summons increase physical stats as well. Since it's an increase in total magic power, not just one special attack, the wizards would have it empowering their physicals a well.

+ I mean, with a couple dozen hits at MFTL+ speeds from a character you can't perceive or sense WHO IS even slightly stronger than you are.....

Speed is equalized + Doom would be far faster anyways. Doom is the one who's MFTL+, Jigen is just FTL.

What's the counter to that? Especially the rods that spawn inside your body, what is doom doing about that?

I'm waiting for Elde to make further arguments. I'm just clarifying AP and other physical stats.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm waiting for Elde to make further arguments. I'm just clarifying AP and other physical stats.

That's gonna be tomorrow. I'm kinda busy now.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

78.6 Exatons

Thanks. I jist realized aswell. vs battle new profile setups got me again.

Summons increase physical stats as well. Since it's an increase in total magic power, not just one special attack, the wizards would have it empowering their physicals a well.

Oh i see, very interesting stuff. Plus he already scales higher than 78.6 exatons by a massive margin upscaling from his 80% power to maximum output so that'll close up the gap. Good shi

Speed is equalized + Doom would be far faster anyways

Via speed amps right? Makes sense

Doom is the one who's MFTL+, Jigen is just FTL.

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

Jigen would become Massively FTL+ scaling to doom's value according to equalized stats rules. (If im reading correctly)

I'm waiting for Elde to make further arguments. I'm just clarifying AP and other physical stats.

I see. Im not really taking either side when it comes to characters either. Who has more wincons is the one i go with, no bias .

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Jigen would become Massively FTL+ scaling to doom's value according to equalized stats rules. (If im reading correctly)

Not that how it works. He is not getting EQ amps.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Thanks. I jist realized aswell. vs battle new profile setups got me again.

We all make mistakes

Oh i see, very interesting stuff. Plus he already scales higher than 78.6 exatons by a massive margin upscaling from his 80% power to maximum output so that'll close up the gap. Good shi

Yeah, he scales way above the value listed due to a bunch of upscaling.

Via speed amps right? Makes sense

Nah, what I meant was that without speed equalization, Doom would be blitzing to hell and back.

Jigen would become Massively FTL+ scaling to doom's value according to equalized stats rules. (If im reading correctly)

They're going to be the same speed, yes, but I believe the speed gets equalized to the lower value(?). So both would just be FTL

I see. Im not really taking either side when it comes to characters either. Who has more wincons is the one i go with, no bias .

That's how it should be done, but bias is always prevalent. Plus, it ain't a bad thing in the end if it's in moderation.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I should mention that Doom has a multitude of ways of multiplying or redirecting his attacks to catch opponents off guard. And if he feels like going all out against Jigen? Doom can unleash his Thirds, creating a hundred copies of himself, all real and possessing the same strength.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I was planning on commenting tomorrow but whatever.

Doom should start with his summon because that's his 5-C key. Doom has amps for his speed because of Thirds, and Jigen has amps with his Karma.

Doom doesn't have vision. He is all based on perception. He can even perceive things without magic & even perceive light-based attacks. So I don't see Black rods hitting him. He would just dodge them in case Jigen shrinks his sword and he can't deflect them.

As for Doom Thirds, he can create 100 of Clones. This is gonna be like Sasuke & Naruto vs. Jigen fight, but instead of Naruto and Sasuke, he would be facing 100 of Clones with the same power and speed of Doom.

Lastly, if Doom doesn't have enough AP, it all comes to Stamina, I guess. I don't see Jigen bypassing Doom's Regeneration, especially when he is against hundreds of them & Doom has near-endless magic power. Doom should outlast. Jigen takes a toll on his body as far as I remember for him using it for a longer time for combat.

Btw I don't see Resistance to fear Manipulation in Jigen profile. How he is gonna counter Dooms fear aura?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

They're going to be the same speed, yes, but I believe the speed gets equalized to the lower value(?). So both would just be FTL

Oh i see. Thanks for clarifying, i thought it was the opposite.

I should mention that Doom has a multitude of ways of multiplying or redirecting his attacks to catch opponents off guard. And if he feels like going all out against Jigen? Doom can unleash his Thirds, creating a hundred copies of himself, all real and possessing the same strength.

Sure but you didn't contend jigen's starting move. I believe jigen has ways of catching Doom offguard based off his movement. Being sukanahiko that makes him appear super fast to his opponent but in reality he's just shrinking and moving towards/away from his opponent. And also the rods he spawns into his opponents. Doom would need some type of precognition, prediction skill or be far faster to escape these attacks which by glance i don't see.

To contend what you've said tho (showcasing my non bias )
Jigens rods have insane range which can deal with each and every clone Doom makes as we see when jigen took out Naruto's clones. He doesn't necessarily need to lift a finger against the clones with such a capability. On the topic of taking things seriously... If doom pushes jigen too hard, Jigen will enter his otsuktsuki mode making him far faster along with giving him Low 5-B strength..... Doom will need a game changer ability that stops jigen before this happens as if he tries to outlast jigen, jigen will get serious as he will reach his limit (break the thing in his stomach)

 

[Arkenis]

Doom doesn't have vision. He is all based on perception. He can even perceive things without magic & even perceive light-based attacks. So I don't see Black rods hitting him. He would just dodge them in case Jigen shrinks his sword and he can't deflect them.

They shrink to a microscopic level, how is he sensing that?

Btw I don't see Resistance to fear Manipulation in Jigen profile. How he is gonna counter Dooms fear aura?

• Fear Manipulation and Minor Pain Manipulation (Strong auras can paralyze, cause fear and visions of death[41] with an unawaken magic pressure, can also cause the sensation of vomiting[16])

This? It's for strong auras, both are relative so he won't be fear haxxing someone on his level.

Also Jigen scales 177.48 Exatons with Karma meanwhile Doom only scales to 78 exatons with freyja.

And against 100 clones Jigen's byakugan helps to detect them all around.

Besides that, Jigen can also just seal them, or bfr them like he did to Naruto.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Doom doesn't have vision. He is all based on perception. He can even perceive things without magic & even perceive light-based attacks. So I don't see Black rods hitting him. He would just dodge them in case Jigen shrinks his sword and he can't deflect them.

I don't see ow perceiving things with no energy or light speed things (the former characharacters are beyond light speed with physical poweress, not limited to perception only) mean you can dodge literal rods that expand in size inside your body. He'd need to be able to detect the rods or be faster as we see within the naruto series.

As for Doom Thirds, he can create 100 of Clones. This is gonna be like Sasuke & Naruto vs. Jigen fight, but instead of Naruto and Sasuke, he would be facing 100 of Clones with the same power and speed of Doom.

Just contended this.

Lastly, if Doom doesn't have enough AP, it all comes to Stamina, I guess. I don't see Jigen bypassing Doom's Regeneration, especially when he is against hundreds of them & Doom has near-endless magic power. Doom should outlast. Jigen takes a toll on his body as far as I remember for him using it for a longer time for combat.

I contended this aswell. If he tries to outlast jigen, it will end up with jigen using his otsuktsuki mode which gives him Low 5-B AP and speed that blitzes his former so outlasting will go bad for Doom. Just like naruto, . simply incacipate Doom with his rods and seal him ..
he manages to beat him to counter his regeneration. Im pretty sure jigen also outskills Doom so it will be pretty hard for doom to outright defeat jigen in a physical fight without relying on hax and jigen himself is pretty haxed so.

Btw I don't see Resistance to fear Manipulation in Jigen profile. How he is gonna counter Dooms fear aura?

S-S-STOMP 🗣🗣

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And against 100 clones Jigen's byakugan helps to detect them all around.

Oh yea i forgot bro has isshiki in him

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Oh i see. Thanks for clarifying, i thought it was the opposite.

Sure but you didn't contend jigen's starting move. I believe jigen has ways of catching Doom offguard based off his movement. Being sukanahiko that makes him appear super fast to his opponent but in reality he's just shrinking and moving towards/away from his opponent. And also the rods he spawns into his opponents. Doom would need some type of precognition, prediction skill or be far faster to escape these attacks which by glance i don't see.

Luckily he does have this. Doom, a master fighter and someone with skill on par with the Divine Visionaries, can instantly counter a move upon "seeing" it. I put "seeing" in quotes because he's blind, so that further adds to his skill, fighting like he's blind despite being so.

To contend what you've said tho (showcasing my non bias )
Jigens rods have insane range which can deal with each and every clone Doom makes as we see when jigen took out Naruto's clones.

As I've said, these clones have the same physical prowess as Doom. Sure, these rods do have some durability negation to them from what I'm reading, but these clones can easily regenerate from this due to low-mid regen.

He doesn't necessarily need to lift a finger against the clones with such a capability.

On the contrary, he does.

On the topic of taking things seriously... If doom pushes jigen too hard, Jigen will enter his otsuktsuki mode making him far faster along with giving him Low 5-B strength.....

restricted, this is only for 5-C. If it's voluntary, it ain't happening via the rules.

Doom will need a game changer ability that stops jigen before this happens as if he tries to outlast jigen, jigen will get serious as he will reach his limit (break the thing in his stomach)

Yeah, his skill and magic is that game changer.

 

[Arkenis]

Oh yeah the list does allow higher tier amps btw, he will just enter Isshiki's form lol. But still even just as Jigen I don't see how he's winning against a shrinking Jigen moving around putting rods in every clones brain or heart, while also shrinking all their weapons.

Doom's gonna end up fighting bearhanded

restricted, this is only for 5-C. If it's voluntary, it ain't happening via the rules.

Multipliers that physically enhance a character to a different tier are allowed to be used for that character's placement in that tier (I.E. If you have a character that is normally 9-B, but through enhancements is capable of reaching 9-A, they would be allowed in both 9-B and 9-A respectively).

 

[AnAverageUsername]

They shrink to a microscopic level, how is he sensing that?

By being "him"

• Fear Manipulation and Minor Pain Manipulation (Strong auras can paralyze, cause fear and visions of death[41] with an unawaken magic pressure, can also cause the sensation of vomiting[16])

This? It's for strong auras, both are relative so he won't be fear haxxing someone on his level.

Yeah I have to agree, sadly

Also Jigen scales 177.48 Exatons with Karma meanwhile Doom only scales to 78 exatons with freyja.

again, 2.3x difference that can be regenerated easily. Low-Mid regen would allow him to regenerate parts of his body cleaved off.

And against 100 clones Jigen's byakugan helps to detect them all around.

All of them yes, but why would detecting help here. The clones are just going to be attacking him head on.

Besides that, Jigen can also just seal them, or bfr them like he did to Naruto.

And how does this work by any chance?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Oh yeah the list does allow higher tier amps btw, he will just enter Isshiki's form lol. But still even just as Jigen I don't see how he's winning against a shrinking Jigen moving around putting rods in every clones brain or heart, while also shrinking all their weapons.

Doom's senses are off the charts, though I'm still reading through the posts on this thread to see the full arguements.

Doom's gonna end up fighting bearhanded

Not as if that matters, Doom can fight with just his fists anyways.

Multipliers that physically enhance a character to a different tier are allowed to be used for that character's placement in that tier (I.E. If you have a character that is normally 9-B, but through enhancements is capable of reaching 9-A, they would be allowed in both 9-B and 9-A respectively).

ahh, that, forgot about that.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They shrink to a microscopic level, how is he sensing that?

Can I get the scan? It's been while I read Boruto I don't remember his shrinking abilities being microscopic level

• Fear Manipulation and Minor Pain Manipulation (Strong auras can paralyze, cause fear and visions of death[41] with an unawaken magic pressure, can also cause the sensation of vomiting[16])

This? It's for strong auras, both are relative so he won't be fear haxxing someone on his level.

Not really. Lance was using similar kind of aura against EQ level opponents. I believe it works on EQ level characters

Also Jigen scales 177.48 Exatons with Karma meanwhile Doom only scales to 78 exatons with freyja.

Yeah? I already mentioned Jigen might have higher AP but he is not bypassing Dooms Regeneration and Stamina.

And against 100 clones Jigen's byakugan helps to detect them all around.

How this is gonna help Jigen? I mean how him knowing there are 100 clones gonna give him any advantage?

Besides that, Jigen can also just seal them, or bfr them like he did to Naruto.

Sealing isn't that easy otherwise he would be doing that without any problem against Naruto the moment they met he didn't needed to extend too much chakra and destroy his body in that process.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Also, piercing Doom's brain might not even work. Delisaster was already regenerating from having his head bisected, Doom should have similar levels of it.

 

[Arkenis]

By being "him"

He simply doesn't show sensory on that level to argue for.

And how does this work by any chance?

He kinda just does it and the sealing like this. he trapped them basically

 

[AnAverageUsername]

He simply doesn't show sensory on that level to argue for.

He feels stuff all around. Even then, with his regen, he can just be struck by the spears and regenerate. After experiencing this phenomenon, he's going to know how to counter it. Because of the whole statements, yada yada yada.

He kinda just does it and the sealing like this. he trapped them basically

So there's very clear tell tale signs. Not sure how Ishiki's going to pull that off. Unless he's shown to do this while shrunken?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't see ow perceiving things with no energy or light speed things (the former characharacters are beyond light speed with physical poweress, not limited to perception only) mean you can dodge literal rods that expand in size inside your body. He'd need to be able to detect the rods or be faster as we see within the naruto series.

I'm pretty sure rods travel from the user to the target, not that they appear inside them. Naruto literally caught that. Even Boruto caught that. So I don't know what you are talking about here.

I contended this aswell. If he tries to outlast jigen, it will end up with jigen using his otsuktsuki mode which gives him Low 5-B AP and speed that blitzes his former so outlasting will go bad for Doom. Just like naruto, . simply incacipate Doom with his rods and seal him ..
he manages to beat him to counter his regeneration. Im pretty sure jigen also outskills Doom so it will be pretty hard for doom to outright defeat jigen in a physical fight without relying on hax and jigen himself is pretty haxed so.

You need to prove that Jigen can bypass his regeneration & Stamina first instead of saying he overpowers him in AP, which is useless as I explained Jigen would just lose in the long run.
I already addressed Black rods case above.
Skill I'm pretty sure Doom takes it because of scaling to Mash , Rayne , Orter, Lance and Ryoh who are genius of their own when comes to combat & Skills. He also has adaptation for techniques. So Jigen damaging a clone already gives enough hint to counter the next attack.

 

[Arkenis]

Can I get the scan? It's been while I read Boruto I don't remember his shrinking abilities being microscopic level

What the page says. And the fact Sasuke's the one who can see it, the guy who can see at a microscopic level. Besides that, the shrinking is small enough they don't feel it entering their body.

He feels stuff all around. Even then, with his regen, he can just be struck by the spears and regenerate. After experiencing this phenomenon, he's going to know how to counter it. Because of the whole statements, yada yada yada.

Okay show that he can feel things small as the rods entering his body when even Naruto can't. Him countering stuff he's seen already has nothing to do with something he can't even feel or know is there.

So there's very clear tell tale signs. Not sure how Ishiki's going to pull that off. Unless he's shown to do this while shrunken?

The BFR was quick, Naruto who has precog couldn't evade.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

What the page says. And the fact Sasuke's the one who can see it, the guy who can see at a microscopic level. Besides that, the shrinking is small enough they don't feel it entering their body.


Okay show that he can feel things small as the rods entering his body when even Naruto can't.

Well, that's tough on me. We'll see if anything gets brought up later.

Him countering stuff he's seen already has nothing to do with something he can't even feel or know is there.

But once it expands? He's going to feel it, he's going to know about the harm that's present. When he senses Ishiki isn't "there" anymore? He's going to catch on instantly after the first turn. Because he's that skilled.

The BFR was quick, Naruto who has precog couldn't evade.

That's Naruto's problem. Doom is comparable in Skill to Mash who can sense dangerous stuff that would put him in harms way just by being close.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I'm pretty sure rods travel from the user to the target, not that they appear inside them. Naruto literally caught that. Even Boruto caught that. So I don't know what you are talking about here.

No, he spawns the rods into his opponents hence durability negation. Its on his profile iirc so please see. And oh? Boruto caught them? You mean the guy that's unfathomably slower than in a form weaker than his power source?? and rods thrown from a guy unfathomably slower with a underdeveloped dojutsu from the original?? Hmm, idk if that's a valid argument. This kinda also proves a point, these rod's only weakness is against significantly faster opponents as we see from Baryon Mode and Daemon which again doom does not have. These rods are also microscopic and doom doesn't have a counter for something this small.

You need to prove that Jigen can bypass his regeneration & Stamina first instead of saying he overpowers him in AP, which is useless as I explained Jigen would just lose in the long run.

I do admit the stamina and regeneration advantage is a bit threatening. Knocking his opponent out could be a possible outcome and we've seen him do that to most of his opponents albeit they're inferior. The outcome of this fight doesn't have to be jigen killing or defeating doom, he knocks his opponents out in character in character aswell. For sealing, jigen needs to restrain a tired doom to then drop a cube on him which isn't happening since u claim his stamina is rather high, so i refrase that statement.

Skill I'm pretty sure Doom takes it because of scaling to Mash , Rayne , Orter, Lance and Ryoh who are genius of their own when comes to combat & Skills. He also has adaptation for techniques. So Jigen damaging a clone already gives enough hint to counter the next attack.

Idk if that's true.... He defeated naruto and sasuke together with each individually having part 1 - shippuden series in total worth upscaling of skill. + Jigenby himself has 1000+ years of combat experience via the karma + Isshiki is the one controlling jigen and we know when it comes to skill, his age and what he's shown outperforms like crazy

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Do you have justifications to prove doom outskills naruto and sasuke? I mean narutoverse has a whole lotta thing to go over on skill

 

[Arkenis]

But once it expands? He's going to feel it, he's going to know about the harm that's present. When he senses Ishiki isn't "there" anymore? He's going to catch on instantly after the first turn. Because he's that skilled.

And then he'll still be defenseless since he can't sense another set of rods entering his head or joints.

That's Naruto's problem. Doom is comparable in Skill to Mash who can sense dangerous stuff that would put him in harms way just by being close.

Naruto:
Emotion Detection (Can sense hatred and other forms of negative intents and emotions), Analytical Prediction (He can predict the next move of his opponent by sensing their negative emotions)

This is ignoring the fact Naruto if he could, could've just jumped away, it seems that bfr was just that fast he had no time to react.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

And then he'll still be defenseless since he can't sense another set of rods entering his head or joints.

Then he'll regenerate again and again. A rod isn't going to do much when Delisaster was regenerating from having his head split open in half, disconnected.

Naruto:
Emotion Detection (Can sense hatred and other forms of negative intents and emotions), Analytical Prediction (He can predict the next move of his opponent by sensing their negative emotions)

This is ignoring the fact Naruto if he could, could've just jumped away, it seems that bfr was just that fast he had no time to react.

I'm not talking about sensing emotions or intents and all that, not am I talking about prediction. Mash can just sense stuff, just pure sensing. And Doom? He matched Mash in combat, in both times.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Mash can just sense stuff, just pure sensing. And Doom? He matched Mash in combat, in both times.

On second thought. Jigen has aura posession via otsuktsuki physiology. He wouldn't have any way of sensing someone who can erase their presence, now can he ? Also wdym by pure sensing? How and what does he sense? If it isn't emotions or energy then it's what?

 

[Arkenis]

Then he'll regenerate again and again. A rod isn't going to do much when Delisaster was regenerating from having his head split open in half, disconnected.

Uhm the rods can be massive, he'll destroy the head completely, and destroy the heart in one go. Also just to say, Jigen was toying with Naruto and Sasuke in the fight, he's got no reason to do so now.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Uhm the rods can be massive,

How big? They look like the average rod size, and Doom is a massive man

he'll destroy the head completely, and destroy the heart in one go.

Destroying the heart won't work either, pretty sure Delisaster got his chest cleaved through by a sword and still regenerated that

Also just to say, Jigen was toying with Naruto and Sasuke in the fight, he's got no reason to do so now.

I still think that Doom's skill on just seeing something once and knowing how to instantly counter it will just prevent Ishiki from bfr'ing him with notable movement

On second thought. Jigen has aura posession via otsuktsuki physiology. He wouldn't have any way of sensing someone who can erase their presence, now can he ?

Doesn't work that way. Despite being blind, Doom just knows where someone is in general. That's why he's so goated.

Also wdym by pure sensing? How and what does he sense? If it isn't emotions or energy then it's what?

Mash just senses the danger or power behind someone. Doom should be capable of doing the same since he's on the same level of skill as Mash

 

[Arkenis]

How big? They look like the average rod size, and Doom is a massive man

several meters

Destroying the heart won't work either, pretty sure Delisaster got his chest cleaved through by a sword and still regenerated that

Doesn't he need his heart to regen? It'll be crushed by the rods.

I still think that Doom's skill on just seeing something once and knowing how to instantly counter it will just prevent Ishiki from bfr'ing him with notable movement

The first attempt will probably work.

 

[Arkenis]

Also the rods are missing, like the very main ability, they drain ones charka making it harder to remove them

 

[AnAverageUsername]

several meters

And did he use these several meter large poles against normal size Naruto and Sasuke?

Doesn't he need his heart to regen? It'll be crushed by the rods.

Again, we see the heart struck in the fight against Delisaster (if I'm remembering correctly). It isn't going to do anything except serve as a means to regen more.

The first attempt will probably work.

And I'm saying that first attempt isn't going to work, Doom's too skilled to not avoid it.

Also the rods are missing, like the very main ability, they drain ones charka making it harder to remove them

Do we equate chakra and magic in this case? That would have to be an entirely separate discussion.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And did he use these several meter large poles against normal size Naruto and Sasuke?

He used it against giant kurama and susanoo & since you said doom is huge. He would do the same thing. He'd have no reason to use a weapon made for piercing damage against normal sized people but those with large size??? Hell yea