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Been a minute since I've done a Xenoblade CRT, but I feel like this was very warranted. I wanted to make this thread to re-evaluate the Reality-Fiction Transcendence of Z - especially with the new, more solidified standards in place.
Here we go.
Warning: Spoilers for Xenoblade Chronicles 3 ahead
The premise is quite shrimple, actually. This scene pretty much gives us what we need to know, and I will also be looking at the arguments made for Z's R>F in this thread, so let's break this down.
Yes, I actually take issue with Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence and believe it should be removed. I actually combed over this for quite some time, initially trying to find additional justifications for it. But the more I looked through it, the less I felt it was actually legitimate. So, what are my problems with it? Well, they are as follows.
(Also I apologize for the lack of many scans in the section that follows, but this is pretty much analyzing the scans I showed above, so I believe additional scans aren't necessary unless I need to reference a whole other scene)
The Scaling Ramifications: A New Cosmology
So, if we remove Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence, what happens? Well, that part's actually very simple. All the Low 1-C characters will remain at Low 1-C (meaning they won't be receiving the 1-A upgrade that a proper Reality-Fiction Transcendence now grants), but they will be downgraded from 6-D to 5-D, via the currently accepted higher dimension that is the Far-Flung Dimension. Any such characters who use Z's Amphitheater as part of their justification need to also have that part removed.
That is, unless... A new cosmology is introduced.
I've been working on this for some time now, so I'd like to introduce it now: a cosmology blog for the Xenoblade Chronicles series. With this cosmology, Xenoblade will remain at 6-D, but for different reasons if accepted. Also, Alvis's Type 9 Large Size would be changed to Type 10 Large Size if this cosmology is accepted, since Memory Space would be 5-D.
In addition, the Immeasurable Lifting Strength characters will remain as is - as they scale for different reasons - but some have Z's Amphitheater as part of their justifications, which will need to be removed.
With all that being said, I believe I've said all I've needed to say. I'll now open the floor to discussion. As always, let's keep this civil.
Agree: 10 (@JoshSSJGod, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Spinoirr, @AdamVhenJP, @Eseseso, @DemonGodMitchAubin, @Kachon123, @Spectra_Schiffer, @ShakeResounding, @KingTempest)
Disagree:
Neutral:
Here we go.
Warning: Spoilers for Xenoblade Chronicles 3 ahead
The Premise for Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence
The premise is quite shrimple, actually. This scene pretty much gives us what we need to know, and I will also be looking at the arguments made for Z's R>F in this thread, so let's break this down.
- As seen in this scene, Z appears to view what looks like a "world" within his Amphitheater as nothing but a film.
- To add onto this, the scene being viewed by Z is in itself wholly fictional. This scene of M being present in a fork in the road is flat-out not real since during this scene, M is actually dead
- Now moving on to arguments made in the linked thread, Z's Amphitheater also shows past and present events. This argument was used to show that the film is not just some kind of portal, as logically that would mean it leads to where the event being shown is (which it never has been shown doing).
The Problems with Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence
Yes, I actually take issue with Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence and believe it should be removed. I actually combed over this for quite some time, initially trying to find additional justifications for it. But the more I looked through it, the less I felt it was actually legitimate. So, what are my problems with it? Well, they are as follows.
(Also I apologize for the lack of many scans in the section that follows, but this is pretty much analyzing the scans I showed above, so I believe additional scans aren't necessary unless I need to reference a whole other scene)
- So, that scene that shows the world in Z's Amphitheater that's used for Reality-Fiction Transcendence? ...Yeah that's literally all we see. On the Xenoblade verse page, this feat is listed as Z "[viewing] a Multiversal cosmology as fiction via his Amphitheater" despite the fact that what we see is some hundreds of meters to tens of kilometers at most (depending on if you angsize the background tree to the PoV vs. if you want to consider this scene as going out to the horizon). This isn't even a universe, let alone a multiverse.
- However, that's just talking about the supposed world's size, but... Is this even a world to begin with? Let's talk about it.
- For starters, I believe there is an important distinction to be made: The scene shown with M is not real at all. There is a difference between something that is real but is seen as fictional due to a higher being's qualitative superiority versus something that straight up isn't real at all.
- Compounding this is that N is able to view said scene as well before stepping into it, so this is far from something exclusive to Z.
- In addition, the claim that this is an actual world showed through Z's machinations is largely conjectural. While it is true that he has total control over Origin, that doesn't exactly show how this is an actual world. Z controlling Origin would also explain how he can show films of whatever he wants to show, so this point doesn't really support or refute Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence.
- To add onto this point, if we're using what's shown in Z's film as a world that Z views as fictional, we can't cherrypick. We'd need to use all of them, which would include many scenes of Noah and the others from throughout the game. And yet, despite this (as can be seen in the same clip), Noah and the others are able to walk into the Amphitheater for no special reason.
- Before it's argued that it's because they are Ouroboros, which fundamentally oppose Moebius, that is never once even remotely implied to be relevant to why they can waltz in the Amphitheater no problem.
- Compounding this issue is that Monica and Ghondor, who are on the same level of "realness" as Noah and the others (with them frequently interacting with each other, which wouldn't be inexplicably possible if the two were more "real" than the party), can physically break into Origin with a Levnis. Origin is what houses the Amphitheater, so the idea that this alleged beyond-dimensional structure (or even higher-dimensional structure) can be physically broken into by those "less real" than it is very alarming.
- So, given that the scene Z perceives as fictional is just not real at all, and that using Z's film as a basis creates massive contradictions with the definition of Reality-Fiction Transcendence, I feel it's safe to say that there is no world contained within the Amphitheater. Rather, the film is just that: a film. At best it's used for surveillance and playing back certain events.
- For starters, I believe there is an important distinction to be made: The scene shown with M is not real at all. There is a difference between something that is real but is seen as fictional due to a higher being's qualitative superiority versus something that straight up isn't real at all.
- To cap things off, I wanted to take a closer look at what Origin is - and why it being a beyond-dimensional structure (or even higher-dimensional structure) doesn't exactly make sense.
- To avoid getting too heavily into spoilers despite the spoiler warning from before, Origin is essentially an ark that contains the data of two worlds and the souls of everyone in them.
- Z's role in this is that he's pretty much the corrupted AI resulting from the souls' desire for stability made manifest. All he did was take control over Origin - as doing so means taking control over the world. He didn't make it into some higher structure or anything of the like. So as such, it doesn't make sense to treat the Amphitheater within Origin (and Origin as a whole by extension) as anything like this.
The Scaling Ramifications: A New Cosmology
So, if we remove Z's Reality-Fiction Transcendence, what happens? Well, that part's actually very simple. All the Low 1-C characters will remain at Low 1-C (meaning they won't be receiving the 1-A upgrade that a proper Reality-Fiction Transcendence now grants), but they will be downgraded from 6-D to 5-D, via the currently accepted higher dimension that is the Far-Flung Dimension. Any such characters who use Z's Amphitheater as part of their justification need to also have that part removed.
That is, unless... A new cosmology is introduced.
I've been working on this for some time now, so I'd like to introduce it now: a cosmology blog for the Xenoblade Chronicles series. With this cosmology, Xenoblade will remain at 6-D, but for different reasons if accepted. Also, Alvis's Type 9 Large Size would be changed to Type 10 Large Size if this cosmology is accepted, since Memory Space would be 5-D.
In addition, the Immeasurable Lifting Strength characters will remain as is - as they scale for different reasons - but some have Z's Amphitheater as part of their justifications, which will need to be removed.
With all that being said, I believe I've said all I've needed to say. I'll now open the floor to discussion. As always, let's keep this civil.
Agree: 10 (@JoshSSJGod, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Spinoirr, @AdamVhenJP, @Eseseso, @DemonGodMitchAubin, @Kachon123, @Spectra_Schiffer, @ShakeResounding, @KingTempest)
Disagree:
Neutral:
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