Xenoblade CRT, Hax removal

[ImNot4nUser]

Aside of the ridiculous amount of things that need a "Limited [x]" added to them, like deconstruction should be "Limited Deconstruction (Things killed by Blades disappear into particles)"

Deconstruction (Noah has shown to capable of this through his attacks)

Because then people will assume that every attack they do has this propery, which is not the case.

These things are the ones I dislike rn:

Malos
And subsequently N
Anti-matter:

Malos's power/aura is stated to destroy anything it touches

This really is not anti-matter, like, how do you even get to that, like, have you even read the wiki section

Antimatter Manipulation is the power to control Antimatter, a material composed of antiparticles. This is an incredibly destructive power, as collisions between particles and antiparticles leads to the annihilation of both, ignoring durability in the process and causing an explosive release of energy capable of eclipsing a nuclear bomb with only a small amount of antimatter.

Once equivalent ratios of matter and antimatter particles react, they are almost immediately converted into energy in a process referred to as "annihilation".

This should be matter erasure, and simply be put as [[Matter manipulation|Matter Erasure]] in the code. I have noted that people are allergic to changing the name of the ability and tend to look for the most similar one, despite being able to simply change the name to the specific thing the ability entails or even merge to different abilities, ex: instead of putting [[Matter Manipulation|Matter Erasure]] you could ALSO put it as [[Matter Manipulation|Matter]] [[Existence Erasure| Erasure]] that way you clarify it is specifially to refer to the deletion of matter as well.

On that note; Delete "Resistance to Existence Erasure" due to surviving Annihilation Events, replace it for Resistance to Anti-Matter manipulation

Existence Erasure (Able to withstand Alpha's art Cleanse the Dregs which causes an Annihilation event with annihilation events being stated to work by cancelling out matter)

Because THAT is anti-matter, it is even wrote: it out CANCEL OUT MATTER, it is by definition what specifically happens in Aionios durin Annihilation Events. We even see it happens when the particles of different universes finally decide to interact, there's nothing being erased because the net energy of the universe remains the same, it just changes from matter/anti-matter to energy. Hell, the name itself "Annihilation Event" is one extra word from the real term (Annihilation) used to refer for the event when there's an interaction between anti-particles and particles, it releases energy and it even creates new matter-materials from the interaction, it's not existence erasure.

Moebius (And anyone who is said to resist)
Petrification and Petrification Resistance

Petrification (Should be comparable to other Moebius who have been shown to be able to petrify people)

Petrification (N is unaffected by the Moebius' ability to petrify people as evident by his repeated deaths at the hands of Z)

They don't petrify shit, this phenomena happens anytime a soldier dies even from random mooks, you can see it several times across the introduction of the game up to the end. The soldier merely died to the Moebius, hence, petrified.

TL;DR:​

• Remove Anti-Matter from Malos+N profile, add Matter Erasure
• Remove Resistence to Existence Erasure from withstanding Annihilation Events, add resistance to Anti-Matter manipulation
• Remove Petrification and Petrification Resistance

As a gift, you can add "possibly soul destruction to N" due to this.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Agree, I find it funny that the existence erasure and antimatter are basically swapped. Though Malos destroying matter is either EE or Matter Manipulation, erasing matter from existence isn't matter manipulation, just EE

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Agree, I find it funny that the existence erasure and antimatter are basically swapped. Though Malos destroying matter is either EE or Matter Manipulation, erasing matter from existence isn't matter manipulation, just EE

I know, that's why I proposed this
"[[Matter Manipulation|Matter]] [[Existence Erasure| Erasure]]" when put like that into code, it gives Matter (linked to matter manipulation) Erasure (linked to existence erasure). I think it's the most reliable way, that way people know it's EE at physical level and aren't asking dumb questions in battle section
Does the agree extend to N possibly soul destruction and the addition of "Limited Deconstruction" as well or :?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

@CloverDragon03 seems like your thread

 

[CloverDragon03]

The "possibly Soul Destruction" for N and the changes to Malos and for withstanding Annihilation Events seem okay. Petrification, I'm iffy on, because it resulted from the Moebius draining the life from Orsolya, and N was in fact unaffected by that (hell, it shows that he's perfectly okay in Z's presence, which causes such a thing to happen to the other Ouroboros, including a past incarnation of Mio)

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Petrification, I'm iffy on, because it resulted from the Moebius draining the life from Orsolya

Every death results in that petrification, be it from the Flame Clock or from Moebius, them losing their life is the cause, petrification is the effect, not on reverse. So using Z scene as some sort of rebuttal is kinda weird. Their life is being absorbed by either the Flame Clock or a Moebius at the end, which leaves them as a petrified husk.

Using the argument being disputed as a proof doesn't really help. Because petrification has never been done without a soldier's death either by weapon (to the flame clock you go) or by a Moebius (to the Moebius mobile you go). They're not inducing petrification, it is a biological process of the soldiers physiology that occurs when the life force leaves their body.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I suppose that’s fair. I agree with the removal of that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll wait for Josh to respond.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I'll wait for Josh to respond.

What are your thoughts for now?

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Call in the ringleader, call Moebius J(osh)

Calc mod votes count as mods vote right?

 

[Spinoirr]

Call in the ringleader, call Moebius J(osh)

Calc mod votes count as mods vote right?

No

 

[ImNot4nUser]

No

Right, so it's Content Mods and administrators that do? I do have a faint recall of some mods not counting but not sure of which one they were...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Right, so it's Content Mods and administrators that do? I do have a faint recall of some mods not counting but not sure of which one they were...

Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Alrighty, I was called here. Letsa see what we got.

Aside of the ridiculous amount of things that need a "Limited [x]" added to them, like deconstruction should be "Limited Deconstruction (Things killed by Blades disappear into particles)"

Because then people will assume that every attack they do has this propery, which is not the case.

There are stuff like that like Shulk's Reality Warping being limited before Monado III though I think Deconstruction here is a bad example. To use Noah as an example since ya brought him up as to why it isn't limited, its because there are shown cases such as here where the logic of "they disintegrate when they're killed by these things" just doesn't apply leaving it so the only way both showings can be true is if some enemies have a resistance while others don't. That is my two cents into it though.

Malos
And subsequently N
Anti-matter:

This really is not anti-matter, like, how do you even get to that, like, have you even read the wiki section


This should be matter erasure, and simply be put as [[Matter manipulation|Matter Erasure]] in the code. I have noted that people are allergic to changing the name of the ability and tend to look for the most similar one, despite being able to simply change the name to the specific thing the ability entails or even merge to different abilities, ex: instead of putting [[Matter Manipulation|Matter Erasure]] you could ALSO put it as [[Matter Manipulation|Matter]] [[Existence Erasure| Erasure]] that way you clarify it is specifially to refer to the deletion of matter as well.

On that note; Delete "Resistance to Existence Erasure" due to surviving Annihilation Events, replace it for Resistance to Anti-Matter manipulation

Because THAT is anti-matter, it is even wrote: it out CANCEL OUT MATTER, it is by definition what specifically happens in Aionios durin Annihilation Events. We even see it happens when the particles of different universes finally decide to interact, there's nothing being erased because the net energy of the universe remains the same, it just changes from matter/anti-matter to energy. Hell, the name itself "Annihilation Event" is one extra word from the real term (Annihilation) used to refer for the event when there's an interaction between anti-particles and particles, it releases energy and it even creates new matter-materials from the interaction, it's not existence erasure.

Yeah that's fair. I would note though that those who tanked Annihilation Events would resist EE anyway. E.g Mythra and the torna cast had issue with Malos' power. Those who fought Alpha were unaffected by his Erasure Strike which is the same attack Shulk with the Monado III used to erase Zanza which makes sense given it is Ontos' power to begin with. It would just be a justification change. Also do remember that this would mean that the Ontoses....Ontosi? would get Antimatter manip off of this given they can generate annihlation events and that it would change the justification of antimatter on the conduit users profiles to be Alpha instead of Malos.

Moebius (And anyone who is said to resist)
Petrification and Petrification Resistance


They don't petrify shit, this phenomena happens anytime a soldier dies even from random mooks, you can see it several times across the introduction of the game up to the end. The soldier merely died to the Moebius, hence, petrified.

That isn't apart of a soldier's physiology. If that were the case then this would have happened to Noah and Mio through their repeated deaths but instead they just disintegrate. Its moreso something that happens to those who are being affected by the flame clocks as the clock is collecting their souls which in turn makes it Moebius' doing as they are the ones who control the Flame Clocks. This can be seen more with how there are shown cases such as here where normal creatures are having their embers sucked by the Flame Clock. This would funnily enough give soldiers who are bound by the flame clock soul absorption thanks to the flame clock which could make for another key for the main cast. The resistance can go though. Its fairly redundant as many characters who have it already resist reality warping and matter manip which covers petrification.

As a gift, you can add "possibly soul destruction to N" due to this.

Hilariously enough, I thought about this like a day before the CRT came out. I didn't think much of it due to the line being vague on how he was going to do it. It can also pass for a likely with the justification of Soul Destruction (Was ordered by X to destroy the souls of Ouroboros which implies he is capable of doing so).

TLDR: My stance is disagree on Limited Deconstruction and Petrification (ability) removal.
Agree on Antimatter, EE and Soul Destruction. Though a lot of justifications would have to be altered.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

That isn't apart of a soldier's physiology. If that were the case then this would have happened to Noah and Mio through their repeated deaths but instead they just disintegrate.

In their "repeated deaths" they die by homecoming as noted by their yellow motes or by being deconstructed by Z (blue motes) unlike the red motes of soul absorbtion (like the other Ouroboros in the scene did) which is when their corpses are petrified, you would need to show a soldier dying with a red mote that doesn't ends up petrified, being killed by someone who absorbs their flame clocks or themselves in Moebius case, means their dead body will be petrified. All scenes that are "petrification" are red motes. Check the Eunie scene of her past self death, with all the petrified soldiers. All things that sucks a soldier's lifeforce ends up petrifying them. Moebius by sucking them themselves and soldiers because of the Flame Clock.

It is again, not the cause, but a consequence of the life force suck.

So not the case to say it isn't so. All times we have seen one been killed by Moebius or other soldier it is the case. While obviously a City person vanishes into Origin.

This would funnily enough give soldiers who are bound by the flame clock soul absorption thanks to the flame clock

This is like, obvious. That was the whole point of the game, the characters can gain time from entities not part of the cycle by stealing their lifeforce by killing them with their Blade. However, this is not applicable in VS as it's reliant on Flame Clock, a non standard equipment ironically enough.

Actually, fair enough in the deconstruction one, as the one in the scene of deconstruction vanishes with blue motes, like Noah and Mio did against Z because they don't absorb their lifeforce anymore as an Ouroboros but it is yet again, limited because they need to kill them first; while the one you posted didn't because they still are under the Flame Clock influence and hence all life they kill get their lifeforce sucked.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Similarly, a soldier life absorbtion is limited because they also need to kill the enemy first, the same goes for deconstruction for the party as deconstruction simply substitutes the life absorbtion.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

In their "repeated deaths" they die by homecoming as noted by their yellow motes or by being deconstructed by Z (blue motes) unlike the red motes of soul absorbtion (like the other Ouroboros in the scene did) which is when their corpses are petrified, you would need to show a soldier dying with a red mote that doesn't ends up petrified, being killed by someone who absorbs their flame clocks or themselves in Moebius case, means their dead body will be petrified. All scenes that are "petrification" are red motes. Check the Eunie scene of her past self death, with all the petrified soldiers. All things that sucks a soldier's lifeforce ends up petrifying them. Moebius by sucking them themselves and soldiers because of the Flame Clock.

It is again, not the cause, but a consequence of the life force suck.

So not the case to say it isn't so. All times we have seen one been killed by Moebius or other soldier it is the case. While obviously a City person vanishes into Origin.

The blue motes is actually just what happens to beings of Aionios who are not bound by the Flame Clocks. We can see this as this happens to Mio prior to Z appearing to kill Noah. Z couldn't have deconstructed Mio in that situation if he was not even there to do so. The point was though that red motes are a consequence of the Flame Clocks. This is something the game establishes early on with the Colony 4 fight as only and further reinforced through Future Redeemed as remember that a chunk of the original city was made up of soldiers freed from their Flame Clocks (which certainly pissed of Na'el given her freakout at more freed soldiers joining) yet none of them have red motes when they are killed. If it were apart of a soldier's physiology then there would be quite a lot of red motes in that scene. Thus the Flame Clock is what is responsible for it which would mean it would be Moebius' doing. A side effect of their life suck, sure but still an effect none the less.

This is like, obvious. That was the whole point of the game, the characters can gain time from entities not part of the cycle by stealing their lifeforce by killing them with their Blade. However, this is not applicable in VS as it's reliant on Flame Clock, a non standard equipment ironically enough.

It wasn't the whole point of the game. It was for the first chapter but it is literally a non factor for the rest of the game as they lose the ability to do so after being freed from their clock. It would only be applicable to characters that would be under a flame clock which there are currently none of. Though it would actually be applicable given that they do not need a Flame Clock nearby. They just need to be connected to one as it allows them to steal the life from others to fuel themselves. We can see hunting parties in Future Redeemed going out and attacking settlements to steal their life without their ferronis being near.

Actually, fair enough in the deconstruction one, as the one in the scene of deconstruction vanishes with blue motes, like Noah and Mio did against Z because they don't absorb their lifeforce anymore as an Ouroboros but it is yet again, limited because they need to kill them first; while the one you posted didn't because they still are under the Flame Clock influence and hence all life they kill get their lifeforce sucked.

You would have to prove that directly ability being directly limited by the flame clocks for that point. It wouldn't work though as evident with Bolearis' reaction to being freed where he went hunting to test if he didn't need life anymore but never mentions that the monsters he hunted suddenly vanishes into blue motes. If that was being suppressed by the flame clock then wouldn't he be surprised he can do that or even mention it once?

 

[ImNot4nUser]

The blue motes is actually just what happens to beings of Aionios who are not bound by the Flame Clocks. We can see this as this happens to Mio prior to Z appearing to kill Noah. Z couldn't have deconstructed Mio in that situation if he was not even there to do so.

Dead link, if you mean the scene where she starts turning blue just as the camera focus on Z then Z was there, he even followed by deconstructing Noah the same way, or is it another scene, because in all instances, like this other one, he is there but simply off-screen, he even mocks the impotence of Mio and Noah. All the time it's deconstruction, it is noted by the blue motes, and unlike liberated soldiers or city people, he doesn't need to kill, he can deconstruct living beings (or non-living), it is because of him, we even see that he does that to a seemingly corpse body of Mio and we see how he activates it by the effect of his eyes, blue motes all the times.

Everything else you said is literally what I said here,

All things that sucks a soldier's lifeforce ends up petrifying them. Moebius by sucking them themselves and soldiers because of the Flame Clock.

And that is again, not a reason to give petrification, you want to say it's due to Moebius and life-clock shenanigans but the only thing those two have to do is that they result in the life-force sucking, they ARE NOT actively inducing petrification, it is a side effect.

A side effect of their life suck, sure but still an effect none the less.

This is basically conceding and admitting that no one would get a resistance to petrification, like explicitly so. Petrification is to them what corrosion is to normal humans. Someone killing another person and their remnants rotting to death is not a reason to give them corrosion or something like that.

To gain resistance, the cause must be petrification, not a side-effect of dying. So again, even at its best, it's a "Limited petrification (Petrifies individuals who have gotten their life-force absorbed)" and no resistance for anyone either, because for it, you must resist a direct effect of the application, which no one does, for it to be resistance. No one is directly applying a petrification.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Dead link, if you mean the scene where she starts turning blue just as the camera focus on Z then Z was there, he even followed by deconstructing Noah the same way, or is it another scene, because in all instances, like this other one, he is there but simply off-screen, he even mocks the impotence of Mio and Noah. All the time it's deconstruction, it is noted by the blue motes, and unlike liberated soldiers or city people, he doesn't need to kill, he can deconstruct living beings (or non-living), it is because of him, we even see that he does that to a seemingly corpse body of Mio and we see how he activates it by the effect of his eyes, blue motes all the times.

Nono the other one. The one where Mio is dying in Noah's arms then after she dies Z shows up. Though where offscreen are you saying Z is at that scene? We see a very direct forward shot with no Z to be seen. Is he hiding beside the wreckage? We know his deconstruction is based on sight based on the two times we see him use it so did he teleport in, use that in Mio then hide around a corner, wait for her to die then dramatically walk in monologuing to Noah before killing him? That is fairly ridiculous and out of character for Z to be the case.

Everything else you said is literally what I said here,

And that is again, not a reason to give petrification, you want to say it's due to Moebius and life-clock shenanigans but the only thing those two have to do is that they result in the life-force sucking, they ARE NOT actively inducing petrification, it is a side effect.

Yes. It is a side effect. It'd be limited as it requires the life suck to happen but it is still something they can do. We know in Xenoblade that life sucking doesn't inherently lead to being petrified as seen with Zanza's own life suck to Shulk in Xb1 which means this is something that only happens with a Moebius does it which should be noted on their profile.

This is basically conceding and admitting that no one would get a resistance to petrification, like explicitly so. Petrification is to them what corrosion is to normal humans. Someone killing another person and their remnants rotting to death is not a reason to give them corrosion or something like that.

To gain resistance, the cause must be petrification, not a side-effect of dying. So again, even at its best, it's a "Limited petrification (Petrifies individuals who have gotten their life-force absorbed)" and no resistance for anyone either, because for it, you must resist a direct effect of the application, which no one does, for it to be resistance. No one is directly applying a petrification.

Didja forget in my original post I said that the resistance to it can go? So yes, it is saying no one would get it because I've explicitly agreed to removing it before.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

Holy hell I NEVER SENT THIS

---

Nono the other one. The one where Mio is dying in Noah's arms then after she dies Z shows up. Though where offscreen are you saying Z is at that scene? We see a very direct forward shot with no Z to be seen. Is he hiding beside the wreckage? We know his deconstruction is based on sight based on the two times we see him use it so did he teleport in, use that in Mio then hide around a corner, wait for her to die then dramatically walk in monologuing to Noah before killing him? That is fairly ridiculous and out of character for Z to be the case.

Can you link it then? Because the last one was a broken link :1, the one I linked, Mio was already being deconstructed before Z could see her, but he was aware of it by his own words.

which means this is something that only happens with a Moebius does it which should be noted on their profile.

Which is why I say it is inherent to soldier physiology since in Aionios, a normal death is hard, since city person vanish, Melia and Nia don't die, Shulk and Rex trascend flesh, Moebius just vanish as well. While animal and non clock tied sentient beings either vanish by being killed by a non-clock tied warrior (be it freed soldier or a city person) or petrifies leaving a corpse in case of being killed for lifeforce of a clock. However, I also am doubtful, because City person get food, so animals also leave a corpse.

Then it seems that it would be limited petrification at most, as the requirement for it would be to succesfully soul rip the opposition, instead of being an inherent property of the hax or an immediate one.

TL;DR
Soul destruction, exchange antimatter and matter erasure, get rid of petrification resistance and add a limited to it. And add all the required justifications

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Holy hell I NEVER SENT THIS

Dw about it. It happens to the best of us.

Can you link it then? Because the last one was a broken link :1, the one I linked, Mio was already being deconstructed before Z could see her, but he was aware of it by his own words.

That was the one I linked. From the framing of it, Mio had died from the battled that had occurred around them. Z walks in and mocks them for thinking they could win with the power they possess. If Z had been present there already Noah wouldn't have had his weapon lowered like he does in his later encounter with Z (which also has Mio die beside him).

Which is why I say it is inherent to soldier physiology since in Aionios, a normal death is hard, since city person vanish, Melia and Nia don't die, Shulk and Rex trascend flesh, Moebius just vanish as well. While animal and non clock tied sentient beings either vanish by being killed by a non-clock tied warrior (be it freed soldier or a city person) or petrifies leaving a corpse in case of being killed for lifeforce of a clock. However, I also am doubtful, because City person get food, so animals also leave a corpse.

Then it seems that it would be limited petrification at most, as the requirement for it would be to succesfully soul rip the opposition, instead of being an inherent property of the hax or an immediate one.

TL;DR
Soul destruction, exchange antimatter and matter erasure, get rid of petrification resistance and add a limited to it. And add all the required justifications

I'd never believe that animals and machines vanish naturally for that reason and that its required to get their materials for multiple story related quests. All the above there though I can agree with so overall I agree with Soul Destruction, Antimatter exhange, Limited Petrification, removing the resistance and updating justifications (e.g rewording Antimatter for Ontos, EE resistance)

 

[ImNot4nUser]

I hate bumping (it's beneath me) so last time I will bump this...

BUMP​

 

[CloverDragon03]

Looking through this again to make sure, and yeah, I'm all good with the Soul Destruction, Limited Petrification, Resistance to Petrification removal, and swapping the Antimatter and EE stuff between Malos and Ontos

 

[Hypertornado099]

I'd never believe that animals and machines vanish naturally for that reason and that its required to get their materials for multiple story related quests. All the above there though I can agree with so overall I agree with Soul Destruction, Antimatter exhange, Limited Petrification, removing the resistance and updating justifications (e.g rewording Antimatter for Ontos, EE resistance)

I think what OP is saying is that Noah's deconstruction only works if he also kills the enemy with it, so a regular attack wouldn't reduce you to particles unless it also kills them

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’m pretty sure the Deconstruction part isn’t meant to be a main talking point anyway, just an example of abilities the OP believes should have a “Limited” attached to them. They prefaced that part with an “aside from”, leading me to believe it’s not really a talking point for this thread in particular

I could be wrong, but that’s my takeaway from this