Worm: The Gold Miscellaneous

[DMUA]

Alright, this should be the last of the threads on revising Worm, and if I manage this right, we won't have to look at this again until we read through Ward

let's go

Armsmaster and other dudes like him
You see, I originally planned to title this section Taylor Hebert, and how she should scale to Armsmaster for fighting him in close quarters, but...

Armsmaster shouldn't be 9-B without tinkertech. Let's look at a bit of the scene where he indeed fights Rachel's 9-B dogs

Brutus growled at his quarry, moving a half step too close, and Armsmaster seized the opportunity. The chain extended with a faint whirr and the flail moved with surprising quickness to collide with Brutus' shoulder. From Brutus' reaction, I would have thought he'd just been hit by a wrecking ball. Either Armsmaster was far stronger than he looked, or there was something about his weapon that was giving it a little extra oomph. Given that he was a tinker, it could have been anything.
	~ Tangle 6.6​

Now, Taylor does present the possibility that Armsmaster was indeed that strong. But, let us take a quick analysis, and consider, which is more likely, for a superhero classified as a specialist in gear and special weapons.

• He has some device to increase his kinetic energy in some way, which you can tell is activated by the whir generated from his high tech weapon
• Armsmaster uses his giant mascles to hit 3000 pounds of raw dog in the side of the head with a glorified hunk of metal, sending them reeling from sheer chad energy

.... Yeah, doesn't stand too well. So, he should be 9-C physically, 9-B via tinkertech. Second key stays the same.

He and Taylor might be able to backscale from Mannequin (Worm), who does blow apart the vents and drywall in his first appearance, but that would send them to 9-C+ at best.

Speaking of Mannequin, his car flipping feat is done with 4 arms. His normal lifting strength should probably be cut in half to Class 1, which I don't think anyone would scale to. They would, however, scale to Armsmaster being able to lift Taylor, which is in the Above Average Human range. Not sure what lifting feats Defiant has, but I'm sure someone can dig stuff up.

Rachel Lindt
Generally fine, but 9-A shouldn't be for Dogs in general. Bastard is stated to be more in line with the transformation, and generally is stronger than all the others. It should be 9-B with Dogs, 9-A via Bastard. Lifting strength could maybe sit as Class 1, since even while only a portion of his proper 9-A stats, Bastard was able to ragdoll mannequin

The F Driver
Was calced at very high end High 6-A

The G Driver is supposed to be a beefy upgrade to that, so maybe it could upscale to High 6-A+, along with Eidolo and the like? At the very least, Alexandria's invulnerability should scale to her dura to "At least High 6-A+". Up for discussion.

Edit: Also, as a side note, Damage mentioned that the extra abilities on Scion should be removed, as it already says he has all other abilities in Worm.

High 8-C
Considering that Alexandria's feat is using GPE for something she actively stops from falling and doesn't lift into the air at any speed, we may have to toss that. Not sure where that leaves everyone's stats, considering the only calculated feat we have in turn is done by an Endbringer

thereby the floodgates for Low 7-B everyone have clearly been opened

Conclusion
I don't really have much to put here beyond the fact that I'm slowly recovering from the agony that was the ending of Worm

 

[DMUA]

Bump

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Looks fine to me. I'd ask you to call over the original person who did the High 8-C calc to discuss if it can be redone, but that person was Xcano, so...

 

[DMUA]

Well, even if I asked him

The calc uses instantaneous velocity in an instance where Alexandria actively stops it from moving, thereby preventing that energy from actually being present

wait I said they used GPE

which they didn't

either way the same principle applies and is nulled on both

 

[Promestein]

Sure

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, even if I asked him

He has an account on SpaceBattles, and I've PM'ed him there before. If you want I can bring up the points in this thread with him.

 

[DMUA]

oh

Do that if you wanna, I guess

 

[DMUA]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

The OP looks fine to me.

 

[DMUA]

Wok mentioned on discord that The Smiurgh is able to mod Leviathan with Nanotech, which should be noted on their page

Also it says they were the first endbringer to appear, so that also needs alteration

Either way, I left parts of the OP open to Discussion for a reason. I don't entirely know about what to do with Alexandria and whatnot, it's better to ask for global input

 

[Damage3245]

So that'd be Nanotechnology + Biological Manipulation for The Simurgh?

 

[DMUA]

Ehh

Probably just tech, since Endbringers are strictly non-biological

 

[Damage3245]

The Endbringers have a pretty non-standard biology but I'm sure they still count as biological. They do bleed after all. And if the Simurgh is altering a particular part of Leviathan's biology to give him Nano-Thorns then I'd say that counts.

 

[DMUA]

I guess if we want to count a physics warping mound of endless mass filled layers as biology, we can count it

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah so I'm not done yet either, but just wanted to add some stuff on real quick as I read it.

Eidolo

• Non-Corporeal and Heat Manipulation with a power.

He began to glow, a brilliant azure. Eidolon took on the form of a living field of distorted space. Air ignited on contact with him.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Existence Erasure.

He tapped into an erasure power he hadn't had since he had fought Behemoth the first time. Destroying matter. No defense to penetrate, nothing to attack or avoid. Merely a vast area cut away. Scion moved, but the affected area was as broad as a tennis court. The golden man lost a hand. Thunder crashed as air rushed in to fill a space where even the oxygen molecules had been cut away.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Probably Reality Warping. Idk what else to call overlaying the cliff faces of other universes onto the main one to create indestructible cliffs.

The power was a familiar one. One he'd used to curtail Leviathan's movements in the Kyushu fight. He reached into another Earth and pulled the cliff faces into this world. Scion blasted the cliff faces, but his golden light only affected the cliff on this earth. The moment he stopped, more emerged. He stopped to strike again, this time obliterating the cliff faces on this Earth and the one in the other reality.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• BFR.

He used the new power to shove himself and Glaistig Uaine into the next reality. He fixed his eyes on Scion, then lashed out, shoving part of the golden man into one reality. Scion reeled, then retaliated. Glaistig Uaine created an obstruction, the tornado-mass of swirling blades and iron that emerged fast enough to absorb the beam's impact. Eidolon slashed with another reality push, and Scion disappeared.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Density Manipulation.

It was a strong defense against aimed attacks, but it wouldn't help against something indiscriminate enough. He had a matter creation ability that was perhaps worth trying, and he had a density warping ability that could perhaps deflect blasts while letting him stand on the air. He was reluctant to give up either of them. Both were options, possibilities. Warping of time and space tended to have an effect, so the offensive power was a good one to have on hand. The density warping ability was key to his staying airborne.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Instinctive Reaction.

The light penetrated the bubble, and Eidolon was gone, a quarter-mile away. Reactive teleporting. He felt the bubble form around him.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Creation.

Eidolon used his matter creation power. As with the Faerie Queen's monster of steel, this was derived from a single point, an expanding creation of matter. In this case, however, it was an explosion. Carbon unfolded from a single point. Eidolon chose Scion's right ear canal as the center point. The carbon expanded as a sphere, and there was a glimmer of Scion's reaction as the orb expanded until it was a hundred feet across. A distortion, golden flesh stretching.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

Glaistig Uaine

• Non-Physical Interaction.

Up until Scion radiated golden light. Nine tenths of Eidolon's body was destroyed. The remainder was cast out across the sky. Too far apart to pull himself together. The Faerie Queen did it instead, using the long-ranged telekinesis, bundling him together.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Creation.

Eidolon focused on Glaistig Uaine. She responded by creating a spirit that formed a construct of metal, like a dragon the size of a small island flowing from a point the size of a grapefruit. The metal construct grew faster than the laser tore through it. It slammed into Scion.''
	~ Interlude 27 (Eidolon)​

• Everything that Eidolo has because she has Eidolon.

Scion (Worm)

• Non-Physical Interaction for the same quote as on Glaistig Uaine.

• A ton of resistances, given how most powers don't work on him. Don't have specifics yet.

Taylor Hebert

• Should get Doormaker and Clairvoyant as Optional Equipment while Khepri. Her thing sorta wouldn't have worked at all without taking those two right from the start, and used them the entire time until Doormaker died from the strain. This would probably allow her to grab other characters besides the few that resist, should she so desire.

Yeah that Eidolon interlude sure is something. Not done reading yet though.

 

[DMUA]

I'd think that's more just spacial manipulation and warping different cliffs into the reality he's standing in

Also, Doormaker lost his powers, not died from strain, I think. Still also good

 

[Wokistan]

It would get into reality warping territory once he starts dragging stuff in from parallel universes though, wouldn't it? Scion had to nuke the cliffs in that universe to damage the ones he spawned, which is very unusual. It seems like Labyrinth's power but it doesn't give Eidolon pseudo autism.

Yeah doormaker just had his shard totally drained, and Glaistig Uaine killed him so she could make the portals instead. Same point though

 

[DMUA]

Eh, basically Eidolon's entire arsenal is some form of reality warping anyways so I guess you can call it that and keep away the classification debackle

 

[Damage3245]

Is it okay if I make the change to Scion's 2nd key?

 

[DMUA]

Sure

 

[Poiesis_Element]

Just a quick note (very minor): I've just noticed that the link to Leviathan's page in Eidolon's attack potency section sends you to the Mass Effect version of Leviathan. Could somebody fix that, please?

 

[Damage3245]

Fixed it.

 

[DMUA]

I just added some calcs to the Gold Calc Morning and ugh

Well, High Hypersonic Scion is a go, should scale to everyone as they can match him speedwise hand to hand

 

[Wokistan]

Another thing to add: Crawler (Worm) getting "possibly High 8-C". This is scaling off Weld. This is a WIP, but I have a Weld sandbox, and he's tanked attacks from both Leviathan (Worm) and Echidna (Worm), while also tearing into Echidna.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

he's tanked attacks from both Leviathan (Worm) and Echidna (Worm), while also tearing into Echidna.

I kind of doubt there's any instances of Leviathan hitting him that didn't immensely warp or split his body, and I'm iffy on him tearing at Echidna is High 8-C, or Echidna herself for that matter.

 

[Wokistan]

I linked the thing on the weld draft. He got slapped by leviathan. Clearly not dead. Legends dura comes from surviving a leviathan hit even though he was out of the fight for a while at the end of it, though he also fights Alexandria clones.

As for Echidna, nobody else really hurts her that wouldn't be this tier or higher anyways. Time stopped string used against her oen KE, each member of the triunverate, ballistic, and Sundancer were the only ones to really inflict any sort of damage from what I remember. Well, besides weld. Echidna tanks a rather large explosion and some of eidolon's house sized gravity slams, and was said by tattletale to be around the are of Leviathan, so I think her own High 8-C is fine.

There's a reason weld and crawler are just "possibly" though.

 

[Randomlamdom]

Just going to post this

"I used my ability to read the physical states of the creatures I controlled, reading my swarm much as I'd check a spider's level of hunger, its health, fertility or the amount of venom available.

Almost across my entire swarm, people were threatening to lose their minds. Literally.

It was stress, a factor I hadn't taken into account. I controlled their bodies, but I didn't control their minds. They were bystanders, watching this all unfold, and even though I regulated their heartbeats, kept their breathing level, the mental stress accumulated." - speck 30.5

Taylor should have body puppetry, not mind manip

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I linked the thing on the weld draft. He got slapped by leviathan. Clearly not dead. Legends dura comes from surviving a leviathan hit even though he was out of the fight for a while at the end of it, though he also fights Alexandria clones.

You've read most of Worm, so I'm sure you're aware that what Weld can 'survive' is far more extreme than what Legend can 'survive'. Leviathan could have flattened Weld's torso and he would eventually reshape himself, while if Leviathan did the same to Legend he'd be stone-dead. They're really not comparable.

 

[Wokistan]

Yes weld has type 2, but it's not like it said weld got flattened or whatever. Iirc Taylor said that when he was all torn up in the cauldron base was the worst state she had ever seen him in, and she was thw one who noted leviathan slapped him.

I linked to the Echidna quote in that sandbox where he gets body slammed by her and she tties to crush him and it didn't work. He wasn't mutilated there either.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As for Echidna, nobody else really hurts her that wouldn't be this tier or higher anyways. Time stopped string used against her oen KE, each member of the triunverate, ballistic, and Sundancer were the only ones to really inflict any sort of damage from what I remember. Well, besides weld. Echidna tanks a rather large explosion and some of eidolon's house sized gravity slams, and was said by tattletale to be around the are of Leviathan, so I think her own High 8-C is fine.

She takes plenty damage from other capes, but regenerates through it normally. But "tearing into" a minuscule piece of her like Weld did doesn't require the same strength as ripping apart her whole body, much the same a wasp or bee doesn't require 10-B energy to sting a human.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yes weld has type 2, but it's not like it said weld got flattened or whatever. Iirc Taylor said that when he was all torn up in the cauldron base was the worst state she had ever seen him in, and she was thw one who noted leviathan slapped him.
I linked to the Echidna quote in that sandbox where he gets body slammed by her and she tties to crush him and it didn't work. He wasn't mutilated there either.

She commented that he "slapped [Weld] down", and in the same line she says Leviathan "dispatched Brandish", who was later explained to have been killed outright. She's clearly not going into detail on every kill, namely because Weld isn't the big focus of that scene as opposed to when he gets betrayed by the Case 53s. So he likely received similar damage to the person who was outright killed, and didn't 'tank' Levi's attack in any sense of the word.

The force of Echidna's body slamming on him isn't really anything more than her weight + momentum hitting him, which wouldn't be High 8-C. She's also (initially) trying to absorb him; she doesn't smoosh literally anyone else, regular humans included, with the same maneuver.

Weld being High 8-C in general is just silly, and ignores him struggling with moving around cars with the force of his attacks. He's just not remotely close to the weight class of Endbringers and the Triumvirate, otherwise you'd imagine they'd make a damn big deal about a Wards member being near Alexandria's strength.

 

[DMUA]

I think I'm leaning towards Dargoo here

Though, should we just go through with this? I initially delayed the push for application due to the fact that Wok was still reading through stuff, but not much powerwise happens in the epilogue

That said, I did add some calcs onto the Gold Calc Morning which nobody really commented on, and I should probably also say that Glory Girl should be downgraded to 9-B, since the statement about swinging a bus like a baseball bat is not only an offhand statement from a very spooked and inexperienced Taylor, but even if she did ever actually perform a feat like that, it still only reaches like 10 Megajoules, not to mention her forcefield being completely wrecked by a simple gunshot

Also, she only has her superhuman stats (save flight speed) via forcefield, as is noted in Ward, so she'd probably have something different physically. Dunno what yet, but maybe something street level happens (or already has happened and I missed it as per usual). And, at that, her forcefield should be something like "varies" or "unknown", since I think Wildbow stated that it could survive a hit from Scion without breaking, and it's more like RWBY's aura in how it works rather than conventional durability, with Victoria noting how timing is key for how she fights

Also, the only description of Victoria really blurring in flight is when they were launched by Ballistic into the sky one time, and even then

It took a minute to check that none of them had suffered any permanent damage. After some debate, they moved the bodies to a more secure, dry spot, inside the building. Glory Girl managed to make her way back two minutes after the Travelers were gone, helped with the last body that still hung on the wall. By the time they were done, the rain was pouring down.
	~ it took her two whole minutes to return by the end of the fight​

 

[DMUA]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Wokistan]

Not yet ant

@DMUA her forcefield is actually the weirdest thing. She got used to tank a shot from scion at one point, which is also backed by WoG. It seems to protect against 1 hit from anything but goes away if damage above a certain threshold is done to it, sorta like a reverse Gavel. Maybe her file should just be moved to a sandbox for now though, given how she's the ward main character and all so she probably has quite a lot to go through.

As for the High 8-C thing: The scene of Weld being hit by Echidna was Echidna dropping all her weight on him, and she's huge. She knows she can't absorb Weld, as this happens after he cuts some people out of her, so unlike the other characters the reason to not scale of "she knows how her power works so isn't going to try to kill" doesn't work for Weld. Her knowing how her power works goes against things, even.

As for her physicals, she's said by Tattletale to be about as strong as Leviathan, and damaged that anti endbringer vault herself. Also tanked house sized gravity slams from Eidolon, of all people. Not being as tough as leviathan only means she doesn't have tier 6 inner layers because she's not a real endbringer. There's also her tanking Leet's bomb, which caused a blast big enough for near blind taylor to see over the buildings around her. She's also able to move at 80 mph, which is quite a lot of KE when one considers her size and that it would be flesh and not very hollow most of the time. I don't think she herself is the issue here.

It seems odd to call it an outlier for Weld because he actually cuts Echidna more times than he does other AP things due to not showing up terribly often, but I think his durability's much less sketchy here (and as such, Crawler's AP). Weld doesn't necessarily need to be High 8-C AP if that's whats decided

 

[DMUA]

Maybe her file should just be moved to a sandbox for now though, given how she's the ward main character and all so she probably has quite a lot to go through.

4 arcs and her biggest changes are forcefield range and fighting style

Feats may, may happen later, but as of right now I think it isn't that drastic, unless I missed something good flightspeed wise in the sections where she's flying around

 

[Antvasima]

The other staff members seem capable of handling this on their own, so I will unsubscribe to the thread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

As for the High 8-C thing: The scene of Weld being hit by Echidna was Echidna dropping all her weight on him, and she's huge. She knows she can't absorb Weld, as this happens after he cuts some people out of her, so unlike the other characters the reason to not scale of "she knows how her power works so isn't going to try to kill" doesn't work for Weld. Her knowing how her power works goes against things, even.

The amount of pressure Echidna would be placing on him, due to the size discrepancy, is OOMs below High 8-C. Note that he kind of just gets stuck in her afterwards:

Miss Militia was already drawing together a rocket launcher. She fired a shot at the general location where Weld was. He forced his way free of the resulting wound a moment later, the dog tucked under one arm, Grace under the other.

Echidna's huge, yes. Which is why someone incredibly tiny compared to her slicing through her flesh with a bladed weapon as small as a pinprick compared to her - something various other capes in the Street-leveler weight class could do - isn't remotely impressive.

Like seriously, if you scaled everyone who damaged Echidna to the Endbringers you'd end up with half of Worm in their weight class.

I don't think she herself is the issue here.

I'm fine with shelving that if we can remove Weld from the plate. Her scaling to the Endbringers is passable, Weld is mindnumbingly ridiculous.

It seems odd to call it an outlier for Weld because he actually cuts Echidna more times than he does other AP things due to not showing up terribly often, but I think his durability's much less sketchy here (and as such, Crawler's AP). Weld doesn't necessarily need to be High 8-C AP if that's whats decided

Again: Random dude in BB Wards being as strong as an Endbringer would be a stupidly big deal in-verse. Curious how it's never mentioned. I have a hard time believing the Case 53s that tore into him like scrap metal are Leviathan-level too. The scaling is just a logical mess and shouldn't happen.

He definitely needs to not have High 8-C AP or durability, I agree there. His durability is even more sketchy, as most of the 'feats' here are passable for his Type 2.

I still vehemently oppose this.

Here's Weld getting pinned by cars and Mannaquin binding him with regular chains.

Weld was fighting. Cache and Clockblocker stood frozen in time as Weld defended them against a series of attacks. The boy's skin was glowing from the ambient heat, the fine wire strands of his hair melted into a single smooth layer. He might have been rendered nude as the flames ate at his clothing and costume, but he wore the same fireproof suit as his teammates, the arms and upper body tied around the waist. I watched as he paused at the rear of one car, crouching with his two sets of arms at the bumper, then unfolded explosively, steam or vapor billowing around him as he launched the car through the air. It wasn't much distance, only ten or so feet, but the car rolled and slammed into Weld, knocking the junior hero into his frozen teammates and pinning him there. Weld pushed hard against the flaming hulk of the car, attempting to make room to free himself, but another car sailed through the air to land on top of Cache and Weld. While Weld hacked at the cars, shearing through the undercarriage to make for pieces that were smaller to move, Mannequin began moving through the parking lot, pushing at more cars to get them closer to Weld and his teammates. A minivan, a sedan, a pickup, pushed into Weld's immediate surroundings. Weld managed to push the car that was pinning him from the side. Holding the stack of vehicles up over his head, he found a point where he could set his foot without the scorched frame collapsing and kicked the car away. As he tried to figure out how to manage the pile of flaming cars that sat atop him and his teammates, Mannequin struck. Like a piston, Mannequin slammed into him, thrusting him away, then danced back into the cover of the flames and smoke. Weld slid on the pavement until he collided with a car, and the cars that he'd been supporting collapsed. There were crunching sounds and the noise of metal striking metal. I directed the beetle around one particularly thick cloud of black smoke and saw Weld hacking the cars to pieces, his arms a pair of oversized blades. Mannequin threw a car at him, and Weld lunged forward to slam it down into the ground with both hands. Mannequin used the opening to leap forward, his feet momentarily resting on Weld's shoulders, before he hopped down to the ground. Spools of chain unfolded in Mannequin's wake, and he bound Weld, dragging him away from his allies. Mannequin backed away from Weld to stare up at me. Weld, for his part, had absorbed the metal of the chains and disconnected the excess from his body. When he reshaped his hands into weapons, it was faster than I'd seen him do it during our attack on the PRT headquarters. Weld gave me a salute, using a knife-hand that was as long as he was tall. Both Weld and Mannequin had seemingly unlimited physical reserves. Both had equipment they could spring from nowhere ― Mannequin had his concealed equipment and weapons, Weld had his crude shapeshifting abilities. That wasn't to say they were evenly matched. Mannequin could have hit Weld with everything he had, and I doubted he would have even slowed Weld down. The opposite wasn't so true ― I suspected that one solid blow from Weld would leave Mannequin a wreck. The problem was that even though Weld was strong, he was heavy, and this put him somewhere near the upper limits of what you'd expect an athlete to be able to perform.

Obviously as strong as Alexandria.

 

[DMUA]

Like seriously, if you scaled everyone who damaged Echidna to the Endbringers you'd end up with half of Worm in their weight class.

I actually did end up looking through a good chunk of the fight and I don't really remember any particular person doing notable damage besides guys like Legend or whatnot, specific quotes would be nice

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I actually did end up looking through a good chunk of the fight and I don't really remember any particular person doing notable damage besides guys like Legend or whatnot, specific quotes would be nice

The very comment you're quoting already has a cite on Miss Militia using a rocket launcher to blast a piece of her off to free Weld. I'm surprised you read through most of the fight and presumably my comment and didn't notice that.

I'll bring out some more cites though, sure.