World of Warcraft Discussion Thread: For suffering!

[DaReaperMan]

Thrall=Shalamanye=Gorehowl>Mannoroth>Thrall. Want this scanned and referenced or are you gonna take my word for it this time?

In fact, **** it, here we go!

Thrall=Shalamanye

Battle for Undercity, either side.

Shalamanye=Gorehowl

World of Warcraft: Wolfheart Page 345
World of Warcraft: Wolfheart Page 346
And before you say it, i explicitly said that shit involving High Elves, Jarod, or Maiev was retconned, not the whole damn book, in fact the rest of it is proven canon in-game.

Gorehowl>Mannoroth>Thrall

Warcraft 3: By Demons be Driven

Mannoroth one-shots Thrall, "Gorehowl one-shots Mannoroth"

And you know how this circular scaling vanishes? Grommash just scales to what he did with Gorehowl because he ENTIRELY lacks anti-feats anyway.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Damn this be making my head spin. Let's drop this for now and continue when the profiles are made

 

[Greatsage13th]

Any idea where Bwomsandi, Sylvanas' and Bolivar scale?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Damn this be making my head spin. Let's drop this for now and continue when the profiles are made

How about we just don't continue it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Any idea where Bwomsandi, Sylvanas' and Bolivar scale?

At least 7-A, likely 6-A

Don't ******* care

7-A | 7-A

Bro does nothing

 

[Greatsage13th]

Helm of domination has no amps?

 

[Greatsage13th]

How about we just don't continue it.

I don't know. I am going to bring up one thing. Grom killed Cenarius one on one or he had an entire fel orc army at his disposal during the encounter?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't know. I am going to bring up one thing. Grom killed Cenarius one on one or he had an entire fel orc army at his disposal during the encounter?

From Dialogue Grom either did it on his own or with a small detachment of Fel Orcs

 

[Greatsage13th]

From Dialogue Grom either did it on his own or with a small detachment of Fel Orcs

In warcraft 3, he more or less bulldoze through 3 separate night elf bases with his army before ganging up on Cenarius.

 

[DaReaperMan]

In warcraft 3, he more or less bulldoze through 3 separate night elf bases with his army before ganging up on Cenarius.

I mean, are you surprised? Lol

 

[Greatsage13th]

I mean, are you surprised? Lol

What I'm trying to say is, He would downscale a little from 6-A sine he didn't slaughter Cenarius all on his own.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also, are you absolutely sure the Jarod vs Maiev event did not happen?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also, are you absolutely sure the Jarod vs Maiev event did not happen?

Yes. When the major event that came of what Maiev did(Being removed from being leader of the Watchers) is acted like it never happened in more then a few cases, then we literally can't take Maiev nearly killing 6-A(Semi-serious) Malfurion either.

Bluntly put, Maiev would be 6-A At most 5-B if we could consider her involvement with Wolfheart canon, but I can't, in good faith, say it is.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yes. When the major event that came of what Maiev did(Being removed from being leader of the Watchers) is acted like it never happened in more then a few cases, then we literally can't take Maiev nearly killing 6-A(Semi-serious) Malfurion either.

I mean...you can't take a part of the story as canon and the other as non-canon if they occured at the same time.

Bluntly put, Maiev would be 6-A At most 5-B if we could consider her involvement with Wolfheart canon, but I can't, in good faith, say it is.

Wouldn't there be a timeskip between wolfheart and legion for the most part?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean...you can't take a part of the story as canon and the other as non-canon if they occured at the same time.

Wouldn't there be a timeskip between wolfheart and legion for the most part?

One side is contradicted, the other isn't. It's two storylines in one book that don't intersect.

Maiev tried to kill one of her people's Racial leaders and the other one ordered that Jarod take her place as leader of the Wardens.

Do you honest to God think that Maiev somehow, off-screen, redeemed herself in the span of a few years after she committed HIGH TREASON for trying to kill one of the most respected leaders on the planet bar none??? Are you mad???

 

[Greatsage13th]

One side is contradicted, the other isn't. It's two storylines in one book that don't intersect.

Maiev tried to kill one of her people's Racial leaders and the other one ordered that Jarod take her place as leader of the Wardens.

Do you honest to God think that Maiev somehow, off-screen, redeemed herself in the span of a few years after she committed HIGH TREASON for trying to kill one of the most respected leaders on the planet bar none??? Are you mad???

Okay, let me ask you this question in particular. When does this story take place?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Okay, let me ask you this question in particular. When does this story take place?

Cataclysm. Maiev is reaffirmed to be leader of the Watchers in Warlords of Dreanor. Ony like 5 years passed between those expansions

 

[Greatsage13th]

Cataclysm. Maiev is reaffirmed to be leader of the Watchers in Warlords of Dreanor. Ony like 5 years passed between those expansions

Anything that confirms it took place during cataclysm?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Anything that confirms it took place during cataclysm?

Multiple times, even on the back of the damn book.

I'm gonna be very blunt with you mate, trying to explain away how Maiev did something she was never stated to do is faulty argumentation at best

And I just checked, it was 4 year separating WoD and Cataclysm.

How in the **** would Maiev be allowed anywhere near any Night Elf place if she committed high treason. and Tyrande even knew where she went!

 

[Greatsage13th]

Multiple times, even on the back of the damn book.

I'm gonna be very blunt with you mate, trying to explain away how Maiev did something she was never stated to do is faulty argumentation at best

And I just checked, it was 4 year separating WoD and Cataclysm.

How in the **** would Maiev be allowed anywhere near any Night Elf place if she committed high treason. and Tyrande even knew where she went!

Likely pardoned. Judging by how it went for Illidan.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Likely pardoned. Judging by how it went for Illidan.

Illidan was pardoned after he saved the leader of the entire ******* race's life

When was the last time Maiev did something for the Night Elves?

Battle for Azeroth. that's when she did something for the Night Elves.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Illidan's pardoning bar is far higher than what Maiev would have to do to achieve her pardoning my guy. Just compare their crimes to one another and one would be several meters longer than Maiev's

 

[DaReaperMan]

Illidan's pardoning bar is far higher than what Maiev would have to do to achieve her pardoning my guy. Just compare their crimes to one another and one would be several meters longer than Maiev's

Let's see, Illidan injured/killed several guards and a general and was given a life sentence in prison, as well as making a new well of eternity which was unpopular.

Maiev murdered numerous High Elves and nearly killed Malfurion(The leader's husband) and the only reason she was allowed to life was becuase Jarod couldn't bring himself to kill her.

Yes, this woman who was given the death sentence would surely have gotten off without something monumentous, especially since she and Tyrande totally liked eachother in the first place

If you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm, and there was no way in HELL Maiev did something big enough to get pardoned that we didn't know about

 

[Greatsage13th]

Let's see, Illidan injured/killed several guards and a general and was given a life sentence in prison, as well as making a new well of eternity which was unpopular.

You severely watered down that last one they practically viewed him as the devil. Creating another well of eternity pretty much puts anything Maiev done to absolute shame. He also in addition to the above: slaughtered a night elf fishing village, made an attempt on Tyrande's life same thing with Malfurion, Killed off most of Maiev's watchers, soul sucked most of the moon guards' lives during his time as a captain, committed treason twice...that's a very big difference.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You severely watered down that last one they practically viewed him as the devil. Creating another well of eternity pretty much puts anything Maiev done to absolute shame. He also in addition to the above: slaughtered a night elf fishing village, made an attempt on Tyrande's life same thing with Malfurion, Killed off most of Maiev's watchers, soul sucked most of the moon guards' lives during his time as a captain, committed treason twice...that's a very big difference.

Illidan was pardoned by Malfurion and Tyrande.

I shouldn't need to explain why neither would be willing to do anything for Maiev

 

[Greatsage13th]

Illidan was pardoned by Malfurion and Tyrande.

I shouldn't need to explain why neither would be willing to do anything for Maiev

Yes. Yes you should. Despite the known bitterness and spite between Tyrande and Maiev. You must know that Maiev was a huge douche and acted out of insanity for the most part during Wolfheart. Also another factor for her pardoning would be because of Jarod mostly that one guy that most night elves revel.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes. Yes you should. Despite the known bitterness and spite between Tyrande and Maiev. You must know that Maiev was a huge douche and acted out of insanity for the most part during Wolfheart. Also another factor for her pardoning would be because of Jarod mostly that one guy that most night elves revel.

And why the **** would Tyrande or Malfurion for that matter want an insane woman neither of them like(Remember when Maiev left Tyrande to die in WC3 which Malfy found out about?) not only back into night elf society, but basically as their literal chief of police after she committed high treason? Even Illidan, who both were favorable to, wasn't even OFFERED the chance to rejoin society.

Even disregarding the bad arguments you're putting up, you're jumping through assumptions on top of assumptions on top of assumptions to try an explain away an inconsistency when there is nothing to back up what you're saying. Headcanon is something I have in regards to Warcraft too, but you don't see me dumping that shit in with the actual facts

 

[Greatsage13th]

Sounds like what you're saying is absolute? You do realize that Jarod was the one that was supposed to decide Illidan's initial sentence but he tossed that decision making to Malfurion. Who to say Malfurion wasn't going to do the same exact deal to Jarod?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sounds like what you're saying is absolute? You do realize that Jarod was the one that was supposed to decide Illidan's initial sentence but he tossed that decision making to Malfurion. Who to say Malfurion wasn't going to do the same exact deal to Jarod?

Becuase what I'm saying requires less assumptions.

"Who to say" proves your making an assumption on the matter

 

[Greatsage13th]

Becuase what I'm saying requires less assumptions.

"Who to say" proves your making an assumption on the matter

Hey you're also making more assumptions based on heacanon by writing off parts of wolfheart as non-canon when they are stated to take place in the same timeframe as cataclysm, saying that Maiev shouldn't be the chief of police because of her crimes is redundant because Activision blizzard would simply leave a lot of things unanswered so no. You over there, using your own explanations to prove these events did not transpire is nothing more than a baseless assumption requiring your own personal theory to achieve without official statements by the author or the ones working behind the scenes. That's as clear as it gets. Whether or not the events are canon or retconned shouldn't be taken as fact from anyone here other than those that contributed to the writings.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hey you're also making more assumptions based on heacanon by writing off parts of wolfheart as non-canon when they are stated to take place in the same timeframe as cataclysm, saying that Maiev shouldn't be the chief of police because of her crimes is redundant because Activision blizzard would simply leave a lot of things unanswered so no. You over there, using your own explanations to prove these events did not transpire is nothing more than a baseless assumption requiring your own personal theory to achieve without official statements by the author or the ones working behind the scenes. That's as clear as it gets. Whether or not the events are canon or retconned shouldn't be taken as fact from anyone here other than those that contributed to the writings.

That's just the thing.

What takes more assumptions?

"Oh, she must've been pardoned because of XYZ and Tyrande and Malfurion must've been super merciful or gave the rights of judgement to Jarod!"(Which by the way was never stated, shown, or even implied)

"It got retconned"

If you can come up with hare-brained explanations on lore you are quite literally Clueless about, making countless assumptions on things that are never shown or implied or stated, and if you cant handle that this is a Blizzard Entertainment verse, and as such there is going to 5 billion ******* retcons and you're going to have to dig deeper to be able to give an answer, then don't waste your time dude.

Maybe someone can ask Blizzard themselves at the next BlizzCon if they actually go(Cause I sure as **** won't), but until we get any kind of definitive answer on what happened with Maiev, the inconsistencies outnumber anything else to the point where Jarod was stated to be leader of the Watchers in the visual guide and that got taken out within the month in an update makes it an oversight. like it wasn't supposed to be so.

Bluntly put, if you still disagree, I don't care. Yes, you should question, but you're inserting headcanon and assumptions on something we have no clue about, with inconsistencies stretching as far back as Cataclysm itself. You're Warcraft 3, I'm literally everything except Shadowlands. There's a massive difference in our knowledge of this verse and how ******* BLIZZARD treats its verses as a whole, and it shows

 

[Greatsage13th]

That's just the thing.

What takes more assumptions?

"Oh, she must've been pardoned because of XYZ and Tyrande and Malfurion must've been super merciful or gave the rights of judgement to Jarod!"(Which by the way was never stated, shown, or even implied)

"It got retconned"

If you can come up with hare-brained explanations on lore you are quite literally Clueless about, making countless assumptions on things that are never shown or implied or stated, and if you cant handle that this is a Blizzard Entertainment verse, and as such there is going to 5 billion ******* retcons and you're going to have to dig deeper to be able to give an answer, then don't waste your time dude.

Maybe someone can ask Blizzard themselves at the next BlizzCon if they actually go(Cause I sure as **** won't), but until we get any kind of definitive answer on what happened with Maiev, the inconsistencies outnumber anything else to the point where Jarod was stated to be leader of the Watchers in the visual guide and that got taken out within the month in an update makes it an oversight. like it wasn't supposed to be so.

Bluntly put, if you still disagree, I don't care. Yes, you should question, but you're inserting headcanon and assumptions on something we have no clue about, with inconsistencies stretching as far back as Cataclysm itself. You're Warcraft 3, I'm literally everything except Shadowlands. There's a massive difference in our knowledge of this verse and how ******* BLIZZARD treats its verses as a whole, and it shows

Really, whether if you're right or wrong one thing is for certain and that is Blizzard messes up it's own timeline all the time and if they said it happened so, it happened so. But if there is very major discrepancy in between 2 major events that contradict each other are present within the same exact timeline in a short timeframe. The most basic thing that we could determine with absolute certainty without the use of analysis, theories or whatnot. It's that it happened "somehow". Yes that's it. It "somehow" happened. We don't know what "somehow" is but that "somehow" is what caused it. So just drop the game theory brain logic and the smack talk as a whole and accept that nothing ever makes sense.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Really, whether if you're right or wrong one thing is for certain and that is Blizzard messes up it's own timeline all the time and if they said it happened so, it happened so. But if there is very major discrepancy in between 2 major events that contradict each other are present within the same exact timeline in a short timeframe. The most basic thing that we could determine with absolute certainty without the use of analysis, theories or whatnot. It's that it happened "somehow". Yes that's it. It "somehow" happened. We don't know what "somehow" is but that "somehow" is what caused it. So just drop the game theory brain logic and the smack talk as a whole and accept that nothing ever makes sense.

And now you go to the other extreme of ignoring all context and events and hyperfocus on the feats. sigh

The most major event coming from that storyline got repeatedly and consistently screwed, so why should the storyline be considered canon? The other half of Wolfheart can be considered canon because it's pretty much separate from the high Elves and shit.

Let me put it in terms you'd understand, if BoBoiBoy had an episode with some really good feats and a storyline, but a few episodes later the storyline gets contradicted to hell and back, would you still use those feats? I wouldn't, personally.

I should say, this isn't even bias towards Maiev, she wouldn't even be 7-A because she nearly killed a Semi-serious Malfy, which is SOLID 6-A and her feats in 5-B would still apply

 

[Greatsage13th]

The most major event coming from that storyline got repeatedly and consistently screwed, so why should the storyline be considered canon? The other half of Wolfheart can be considered canon because it's pretty much separate from the high Elves and shit.

Look below

Let me put it in terms you'd understand, if BoBoiBoy had an episode with some really good feats and a storyline, but a few episodes later the storyline gets contradicted to hell and back, would you still use those feats? I wouldn't, personally.

If they are canon I'd use them. Like those characters' post original series key contradict a lot of the original status quo (using his triple split for too long gives him dementia, Ying sneezing nullifies her power until her next sneeze, Boboiboy can't use his secondary tier elements without completing his entire set of first elements yet he could use secondary tier without having all of them unlocked in the original series, Fang was permanently grounded to Earth but post Original series flung him into outer space "somehow" and etc) yet we still use them because it is a canonical event despite being contradictory to the prequel...(looking at you Star Wars)

I should say, this isn't even bias towards Maiev, she wouldn't even be 7-A because she nearly killed a Semi-serious Malfy, which is SOLID 6-A and her feats in 5-B would still apply

Fair but Gul'dan was 5-B based on what?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Look below

If they are canon I'd use them. Like those characters' post original series key contradict a lot of the original status quo (using his triple split for too long gives him dementia, Ying sneezing nullifies her power until her next sneeze, Boboiboy can't use his secondary tier elements without completing his entire set of first elements yet he could use secondary tier without having all of them unlocked in the original series, Fang was permanently grounded to Earth but post Original series flung him into outer space "somehow" and etc) yet we still use them because it is a canonical event despite being contradictory to the prequel...(looking at you Star Wars)

Fair but Gul'dan was 5-B based on what?

Thats the thing though, I said a few episodes. not an entire season or more. Remember how I said it's contradicted even in Cataclysm? Yeah...

I am open to criticism, but this is one of the most infamous retcons Blizzard has done for a reason, and seeing as we have to go for later info, yeah, bluntly put, I can't in good faith actually say that story line is really canon because it's ending is contradicted, and the ending is maybe the most important part of any story, so how can I, in any good faith, say that we can use feats from Wolfheart's High Elf Storyline for anyone?

Jeez, can you not hover your mouse a link and click too?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Jeez, can you not hover your mouse a link and click too?

I'm on mobile since this very morning till night. What do you think?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm on mobile since this very morning till night. What do you think?

Then tap the link to Alternate Grommash at the very bottom of the AP section...

 

[Greatsage13th]

Then tap the link to Alternate Grommash at the very bottom of the AP section...

Has Gul'dan done the same? As far as we can tell he got atomized by Illidan, is a bug compared to the eredar brothers and feared Mannoroth that disgusting lizard. He had similar issues to Malfurion. His gigantic golem that he raised also got oneshotted by 7-As like Varian.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Has Gul'dan done the same? As far as we can tell he got atomized by Illidan, is a bug compared to the eredar brothers and feared Mannoroth that disgusting lizard. He had similar issues to Malfurion. His gigantic golem that he raised also got oneshotted by 7-As like Varian.

Physical feat

Yeah he doesn't directly scale to them, minor damage is what he's pulling.

Bro probably feared Mannoroth due to his frail physical form and Archimonde existing and he'd know if Gul'got disloyal.

He summoned a Fel Reaver that got one-shot by Varian. IE not his magic.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yeah he doesn't directly scale to them, minor damage is what he's pulling.

He'd still be 6-A+

Bro probably feared Mannoroth due to his frail physical form and Archimonde existing and he'd know if Gul'got disloyal.

But he did nothing when Garrosh grabbed him by the jugular or when Mannoroth was slain by Grom. Isn't that a bigger feat of disloyalty to not strike back at that time?

He summoned a Fel Reaver that got one-shot by Varian. IE not his magic.

And how strong is a fel reaver?