Woody Woodpecker (Original) vs Zeref Dragneel [Battle for 2th Strongest Non-Smurf 5-A]

[AnonymousBlank]

Voting Zeref, incon at most.

The plot manip doesn’t seem to be versatile at all and severely lacking in feats to deal with Zeref’s stuff from what has been said so far which means arguing it trumps Zeref’s kit is a NLF.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The woodpecker's madness leaves someone completely out of reality (in the metaphorical sense), like the policeman or the wolf.

Tbh I'm not exactly sure where Zeref's insanity would fall by comparison. He was basically losing his grip on himself

Sealing

I think another thing to consider is what Woody would do in-character. SBA assumes both combatants are in-character, and in this moment, while Woody does seal the bull away, he later releases the bull.

That's an important thing to consider: What would Woody do in-character? Zeref spamming death hax is in-character for him, his starting move is pretty much always an all-encompassing wave of death hax

Sorry it was "mental" not "metal"
Mind Manipulation (Can hypnotized people with a gesture[43], can hypnotized his own reflection[43])

This seems to be more of a legitimate win-con than the Sealing, but then comes the question of "when will he use it"? Especially given Zeref's starting move, along with other things like Zeref's passive Fear Inducement via his sheer aura, this seems like it'd be pretty hard to achieve. Woody needs to make a gesture, whereas Zeref doesn't even need to do that

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. I've never seen this discussed anywhere. It's not even on the plot hax page and I haven't seen anyone else talking about this rule.

Again, this has to do with other verses compared to this one. Woody's Plot Manipulation depends on the concept of "Woody Woodpecker episodes," where each episode must always end with Woody winning due to that being what the fans want to see in each episode.

Zeref is not a Woody Woodpecker character, nor is a VS match like this a Woody Woodpecker episode

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Since the hax plot seems to be the most controversial thing here, I've called theglassman12 to comment here later.

Anyway, as to whether plot hax would work here. He said.

That's not how verse equalization works
Verse equalization by default let's all of their abilities taken into account

If in doubt, you can ask him.

That's an important thing to consider: What would Woody do in-character?

It's a crazy cartoon, it could literally be anything.

The episode where he learns mind manipulation, he uses this hax for literally the entire episode.

What I'm saying is that the plot hax would make him use this since he's supposed to win.

Tbh I'm not exactly sure where Zeref's insanity would fall by comparison. He was basically losing his grip on himself

It's still not the same.

I mean, with that argument I could give resistance to madness to woodpecker because his incarnation is pretty much the personification of madness in terms of how he acts.

Again, this has to do with other verses compared to this one. Woody's Plot Manipulation depends on the concept of "Woody Woodpecker episodes," where each episode must always end with Woody winning due to that being what the fans want to see in each episode.

Zeref is not a Woody Woodpecker character, nor is a VS match like this a Woody Woodpecker episode

I answered this above.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Anyway, as I said, I asked theglassman12 to give his opinion on how the hax plot would work. So I ask you to wait for him.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll wait for the Plot Hax stuff because I take some serious issue with that given how incredibly easily it can devolve into a No-Limits Fallacy cesspool but Theglassman12 might help out with making things clearer

 

[Theglassman12]

@CloverDragon03 Is there any evidence that Zeref is capable of killing beings with low godly regen? Because I do not see any form of regen negation or immortality negation on a Low-Godly level, especially with the new immortality negation states you need to prove the character’s death hax can bypass high level regen as it’s a NLF to say otherwise.

As for the whole plot hax stuff, saying Zeref isn’t a woody woodpecker character, therefore plot hax won’t work goes against verse equalization, where everyone’s abilities are taken into account regardless of how their systems differ. Woody’s plot hax is applicable in this fight, however given Woody doesn’t have any way to kill Zeref, this all depends on what exactly does Zeref have to answer against Woody’s other hax, if he’s able to resist or get around the other hax then it’s an incon since neither can put down the other, if he doesn’t resist any of Woody’s abilities that can lead him a victory then Woody would end up winning by battle of attrition and landing the one move he needs to win.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Zeref's death hax can kill Mavis, who has the same immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, and 4) and regeneration (Low-Godly, possibly Mid-Godly) as him

I lowkey forgot about verse equalization, I rarely see it come up as a major factor (I also don't really deal with plot hax in general so yeah)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@CloverDragon03 Is there any evidence that Zeref is capable of killing beings with low godly regen? Because I do not see any form of regen negation or immortality negation on a Low-Godly level, especially with the new immortality negation states you need to prove the character’s death hax can bypass high level regen as it’s a NLF to say otherwise.

I need to read these new pages, I didn't know that death hax was now limited like this.

As for the whole plot hax stuff, saying Zeref isn’t a woody woodpecker character, therefore plot hax won’t work goes against verse equalization, where everyone’s abilities are taken into account regardless of how their systems differ. Woody’s plot hax is applicable in this fight, however given Woody doesn’t have any way to kill Zeref, this all depends on what exactly does Zeref have to answer against Woody’s other hax, if he’s able to resist or get around the other hax then it’s an incon since neither can put down the other, if he doesn’t resist any of Woody’s abilities that can lead him a victory then Woody would end up winning by battle of attrition and landing the one move he needs to win.

Zeref's death hax can kill Mavis, who has the same immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, and 4) and regeneration (Low-Godly, possibly Mid-Godly) as him

I lowkey forgot about verse equalization, I rarely see it come up as a major factor

So the hax plot can be applied here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Supposedly yes, as it'd fall under verse equalization

I fear for the day Woody can solo Azathoth simply because the fans demand he win

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@CloverDragon03 Is there any evidence that Zeref is capable of killing beings with low godly regen? Because I do not see any form of regen negation or immortality negation on a Low-Godly level, especially with the new immortality negation states you need to prove the character’s death hax can bypass high level regen as it’s a NLF to say otherwise.

As for the whole plot hax stuff, saying Zeref isn’t a woody woodpecker character, therefore plot hax won’t work goes against verse equalization, where everyone’s abilities are taken into account regardless of how their systems differ. Woody’s plot hax is applicable in this fight, however given Woody doesn’t have any way to kill Zeref, this all depends on what exactly does Zeref have to answer against Woody’s other hax, if he’s able to resist or get around the other hax then it’s an incon since neither can put down the other, if he doesn’t resist any of Woody’s abilities that can lead him a victory then Woody would end up winning by battle of attrition and landing the one move he needs to win.

Taking the opportunity to ask, it seems that Zeref has a passive aura of fear and paralysis.

How would the passive hax plot work in this case?

If this is > plot hax because of the "displays of power", I think this vs can be closed since zeref would have a passive for woodpecker inaction.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbh, it's not even a display of power. Zeref simply appears and the two are left paralyzed by fear

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Tbh, it's not even a display of power. Zeref simply appears and the two are left paralyzed by fear

I didn't understand.

By "power displays" I mean about plot hax, since some have already said in the topic that because it doesn't have more development it won't be as effective.

I'm asking glass about this. How would it work.

I don't want to say "Woody resists it because he always wins in the episode (Plot Hax)"

 

[Theglassman12]

@CloverDragon03 That should be listed in his abilities if he’s able to kill someone with that level of regen and immortality.

@Phsccarvalho Id assume it can work, but not to the extent of him flat out being able to lose since “the fans demand him to win”. Though like I said if Woody doesn’t have a way to incap Zeref then it would be an incon. However if Zeref does indeed have a way to permanently kill Woody then Zeref might be able to kill Woody and get the win since this would be above Woody’s pay grade.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@CloverDragon03 That should be listed in his abilities if he’s able to kill someone with that level of regen and immortality.

I can do so. I have the appropriate scans

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho Id assume it can work, but not to the extent of him flat out being able to lose since “the fans demand him to win”. Though like I said if Woody doesn’t have a way to incap Zeref then it would be an incon. However if Zeref does indeed have a way to permanently kill Woody then Zeref might be able to kill Woody and get the win since this would be above Woody’s pay grade.

Well, Woody has wincon forms like Mind Manipulation (by gestures), Sleep Manipulation, Sealing, Madness Manipulation. And maybe probability manipulation can mess up Zeref's movement.

And Zeref seems to be able to kill him.

 

[Theglassman12]

Then it all depends on who’s able to land their winning move first, either Zeref manages to kill him beyond recovery, rendering his plot hax somewhat moot. Or Woody lasts long enough to land a winning blow.

 

[CloverDragon03]

In that case, I'd stick to my vote of Zeref. Between passive fear and paralysis inducement, plus the large AOE of his death hax, I think he takes this more often than not

 

[Phsccarvalho]

In that case, I'd stick to my vote of Zeref. Between passive fear and paralysis inducement, plus the large AOE of his death hax, I think he takes this more often than not

Do you have any AOE video of Death? Because the Animator can redraw scenes from the episode to prevent the woodpecker from dying.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Here is Mavis inadvertedly using the AOE move, called Death Predation

Zeref has the exact same magic and actually knows how to use it, unlike Mavis in this scene

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Then it all depends on who’s able to land their winning move first, either Zeref manages to kill him beyond recovery, rendering his plot hax somewhat moot. Or Woody lasts long enough to land a winning blow.

Couldn't plot hax help Woody hit first? Of course, Zeref has the means to kill him, but he still doesn't resist plot hax (working like a manipulation of fate)

Here is Mavis inadvertedly using the AOE move, called Death Predation

Zeref has the exact same magic and actually knows how to use it, unlike Mavis in this scene

If it's visible and doesn't seem to be a conceptual skill, I think it can be redone by the animator.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Zeref himself has Conceptual Manipulation though, via his use of the Space Between Time, a Type 2 concept.

Also, as for the AOE, if you check a bit further back in the video I sent you, you'll see that living beings start to die even before the wave comes out

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Zeref himself has Conceptual Manipulation though, via his use of the Space Between Time, a Type 2 concept.

I know, but I'm more concerned with passives or those with a lot of AOE.

Also, as for the AOE, if you check a bit further back in the video I sent you, you'll see that living beings start to die even before the wave comes out

I understood.
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I'm just going to ask glass (as I already did) how plot hax can help in the fight and then I'm going to call everyone who sent a message here to confirm the votes.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho maybe, it depends on how much protection he gets especially when he needs to land his winning move first. If it can grant him divine protection through his plot armor then it might lead to Woody winning, though Zeref also has some potential wincons so this looks inconclusive to me.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho maybe, it depends on how much protection he gets especially when he needs to land his winning move first.

Well, that's not very developed.

He wins in episodes, and the explanation would be what the fans demand. But how much it influences the "script" or the "events" is not something concrete. And there's also the animator thing to reanimate, but it was only shown to happen when it was to save Woody from death.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

For those who care, a way to upgrade Woody to 4-C has recently come up, which may or may not happen, and I think I'll crt it.

That wouldn't matter for this fight as his AP doesn't matter, but it does matter here because it's the battle for a spot in the top 10 non smurf 5-A.

I mean, I can just change the title and stuff, so I guess it doesn't really matter. But this crt will give him some abilities that may or may not help.

 

[Zeinx1]

What was the result of this versus thread

Who won ?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

What was the result of this versus thread

Who won ?

It kind of doesn't matter anymore, that was for 5-A but now Woody is 4-C. Then I lost interest.

 

[Zeinx1]

It kind of doesn't matter anymore, that was for 5-A but now Woody is 4-C. Then I lost interest.

I understood thank you