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| Character | Key |
|---|---|
Woody Woodpecker | Base (version 5-A) |
Zeref Dragneel | Fairy Heart Form |
Rules:
Speed: Is Equalized
Everything else: SBA
Votes:
Annoying Bird:
Rehabilitated Emo: (1) @CloverDragon03
Inconclusive:
Last edited:
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Woody Woodpecker (Original) vs Zeref Dragneel [Battle for 2th Strongest Non-Smurf 5-A]
- Thread starter Phsccarvalho
- Start date
Rules:
Speed: Is Equalized
Everything else: SBA
Votes:
Annoying Bird:
Rehabilitated Emo: (1) @CloverDragon03
Inconclusive:
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Has the Bird's plot manip ever stopped type 2 concept manip before?
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- #4
It is not necessary. Zeref is type 2 for controlling a type 2 concept power, but it's not passive or anything like that.
From what has been accepted from the plot hax, since the beginning of the battle Woody is destined to win because of the demand of his fans and the animator can erase and reanimate the episode to save Woody from death.
And Woody has wincons, so it would be like passive fate manipulation, only better.
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The plot will just make Zaref not use concept manipulation or anything that would ruin the espisode
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Unless the animator has feats of restoring a type 2 concept then his plot manip doesn't matter for Neo Eclipse as it not only has universal range but erases stuff on a type 2 conceptual level, and the plot manip would only matter if he could affect type 2 concepts since Zeref would passively rewind himself to a point before he was manipulated by the animator.
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- #7
It doesn't matter, even without the animator doing anything, it's already in the plot that Woody will win at the end of this episode.
So no matter what Zeref tries to do, it's already in the cards that Woody will win.
Neo Eclipse is not passive in the "started the battle and it happened" sense, passive plot manipulation is.
It was like LoK said:
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Neo Eclipse ain't passive sure, but his conceptual rewind is, so unless the bird's plot manip can affect type 2 concepts, then Zeref would just rewind himself to a point in time before the fight started and be personally unaffected by it. His plot manip would prevent most things from happening to himself that Zeref could do, but unless he can restore himself on a conceptual level which by his current profile he can't do then he'd at the very least be incapacitated.
Plot manip is only as powerful as it's showings, and the generic statement of "always wins" falls largely in the No limits fallacy category if we start assuming he can could always beat things he's never encountered before. especially things like concept manip.
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- #9
Zeref needs to go through the door. So not everything is already in the plot for Woody to win.
It's not an NFL when literally Woody has hax capable of affecting Zeref. It would be an NFL if Woody and Zeref resisted everything Woody had but plot hax.
So Zeref won't go through the door because that would be a defeat for Woody, but in this episode he's already destined to win.
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He doesn't need a door, he just makes a portal, he simply put the portal in the fairy tail guild's door way because it's ironic.
Nothing in woody's arsenal can permanently affect Zeref since it can't get around Zeref's own passive conceptual rewind hax which would just undo anything done to him.
Edit: Unless Woody has feats of affecting concepts with his plot manip then he can't do anything to Zeref here.
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- #11
He still needs to go through the portal, which won't happen because of plot hax.
He can't do anything if he's mad or sealed.
And I asked @Theglassman12 about how if this could for the hax plot, and he said. If you don't believe it, you can ask him.
Yeah no this wouldn't stop Woody's plot hax
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And this is Straight from the plot manip page itself, so unless Woody has feats of affecting type 2 concepts then idrc what theglassman12 says because it's wrong until proven otherwise.
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- #13
This is not wrong, Woody has the ability to incapacitate Zeref either with madness or sealing. The passive hax plot will ensure he wins.
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he can't seal zeref since he'd need to seal the Space Between Time, which is a type 2 concept, which he can't interact with to seal in the first place.
and since he can't seal the SBT his madness hax gets undone.
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- #15
Zeref is not one with his power, if Woody seals Zeref he will not be able to use his power.
In addition to having others, such as madness manipulation, mind manipulation and sleep manipulation.
Also, rollback OS has been shown to roll back destroyed things, not his status. In case he's crazy, mind controlled or asleep.
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After absorbing the fairy heart Zeref's power itself is the SBT as Zeref himself stated as such, also zeref rewind isn't trigger just when he's hurt as the space between time can control all of Zeref's time and space on a conceptual level so unless woody can affect Zeref's magic power, which he can't as you need space time manip and type 2 concept manip to do so, he can't prevent the rewind from taking place.
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Why would Zeref have type two concept manipulation for manipulating a dimension with time magic ? it doesn't make sense, that wasn't even something abstract and not universal to be a concept
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- #18
In its profile it only says that it reverses damage, nothing more. So nothing that doesn't hurt him is being reversed.
Also nothing in the profile says that he is his own magic or the Space Between Time.
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Zeref has literally reversed time even on the things around him, it's not just his injuries.
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- #20
Yes, it reverted when it was destroyed and it reverted destroyed things.
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His profile states he has full control of space-time so no it doesn't just work on injuries.
there was a whole crt about why affecting the SBT is considered type 2 concept manip, it can be found here
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- #22
The passive has been shown to be like this, when it's destroyed, it also reverts to destroyed things. This passive reversal hasn't been shown for things that don't hurt or destroy him. Otherwise there is the passive hax plot that determines Woody's victory.
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Zeref himself states that he has full control over time and space, so no it isn't just when he's injured.
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- #24
What has not been demonstrated. Yes he does, but the passive form of reversal has only been demonstrated when he is injured/destroyed, reviewing injured/destroyed things. Not any kind of negative status like mind manipulation or sleep.
And we have the passive hax plot.
You say that it doesn't work, it would be the same thing as saying that a character with passive fate manipulation that leads him to victory would not be effective in zeref because he has an ability that is a type 2 concept. Plot hax can very well interact with Zeref since he has no AE, non-existent physiology, transduality or the like. And then anything can happen as long as Woody wins in the end.
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The passive form of his hax is the hax Zeref puts the statement on so this is just wrong.
Fate manip and plot manip are entirely separate powers and equating them isn't the same thing here. Woody's plot manip is basically worthless if he lacks a wincon to win with, which is the case here since anything he does to Zeref gets passively undone by his concept manip.
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- #26
Evidences? Because his power was only demonstrated being passive in reversal when he is destroyed / injured.
he has wincons, zeref does not resist plot hax, so he is affected by the plot of the episode which is Zeref vs Woody.
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Here
Zeref states that the rewind power is the power to fully control space-time not just his injuries. This is what's currently accepted, so if you have an issue with it make a crt I guess.
His plot hax only states "he wins" plus the animator can create a fountain for him to de-age in that's the only feat I am aware of. The former is incredibly vague and is easily a NLF as saying he can overcome concept manip despite never having countered it before is a ridiculous leap in logic. The latter is basically worthless in this fight since the animator can't manipulate type 2 concepts.
It's clear that we aren't going to agree with each other here so I'm not going to continue to beat a dead horse, we've both said are takes on it so now we have to wait to see what others think.
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- #28
Of course the power to rewind time uses power of time. But where does it say that all uses of your abilities are passive?
The second is just an additional justification, for something in the future.
The first one that matters. And it says so. Zeref who will be affected by the plot not his power, and him being affected means that Zeref is in the palm of the plot, it's not NFL.
ok
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- #29
Bump
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- #30
Bump
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- #31
Bump
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I'm very concerned about the potential for a massive No-Limits Fallacy involving Woody "always being destined to win." This is especially the case given that it seems to be something specific to the show (as the context for it is the bad guy of the specific show asking Woody to let him win for once). This isn't even mentioning the fact that Woody has zero resistance to Zeref's very spammable death hax, which can even kill people with the same kind of Immortality as Woody (Types 2 and 3)
Overall, I'm voting Zeref. I think the plot hax is being abused to the point of a No-Limits Fallacy and Woody has no way to resist Zeref's most spammed form of offense
Overall, I'm voting Zeref. I think the plot hax is being abused to the point of a No-Limits Fallacy and Woody has no way to resist Zeref's most spammed form of offense
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- #33
The program is literally the show itself where everything happens.
Even the place they record is the Walter Lantz studios, which is where the woodpecker episodes are made.
Buzz is making reference to him always losing in the episodes of the show, and pica pau says that he can't do anything about it since as long as his fans demand it, he will win.
That's the problem, Zeref will be affected by plot hax, being able to be interacted with by woodpeckers as well as having no resistances. He would already be in an episode that Woodypecker would win in the end.
And again, it's not NFL.
I'm not saying Woody Woodpecker is going to use powers he's never used in ways he's never used because he's going to win. I even said that if he didn't have a viable means of victory, whether by incap or death, the hax plot probably wouldn't work.
I'm saying that plot hax will do an episode where woodpecker wins using the things he already has.
Well, I'll count your vote and see if I can get some staff members who are more knowledgeable about Plot Hax to give their opinion here.
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The problem is that I don't see a viable win con for Woody's plot hax to take advantage of. Killing Zeref is completely off the table, as none of his abilities seem to give him the means to do.
We then move to incap, which seems... pretty unlikely, honestly. His best option seems to be annoying the hell out of Zeref with his madness manipulation, but that seems pretty unlikely when you realize Zeref is... pretty mentally insane himself. The man went 400 years just trying every single method of dying possible and none of them worked, and his curse forcing him to kill anyone he cared about drove him to the point of insanity. I don't see Woody's madness manipulation working.
And then there's BFR, which from what I've seen comes entirely from situational gimmicks, and while Woody can manifest the tools necessary to make these gimmicks happen via his Subjective Reality, getting them to work on Zeref (especially when these seem to require some setup time, which Zeref definitely wouldn't give him) is a whole other beast.
Zeref is not a Woody Woodpecker character, nor has it been demonstrated that non-Woody Woodpecker characters can be forcibly made into Woody Woodpecker characters to fit the narrative.
We then move to incap, which seems... pretty unlikely, honestly. His best option seems to be annoying the hell out of Zeref with his madness manipulation, but that seems pretty unlikely when you realize Zeref is... pretty mentally insane himself. The man went 400 years just trying every single method of dying possible and none of them worked, and his curse forcing him to kill anyone he cared about drove him to the point of insanity. I don't see Woody's madness manipulation working.
And then there's BFR, which from what I've seen comes entirely from situational gimmicks, and while Woody can manifest the tools necessary to make these gimmicks happen via his Subjective Reality, getting them to work on Zeref (especially when these seem to require some setup time, which Zeref definitely wouldn't give him) is a whole other beast.
I also wanna touch on this, because this highlights my issue. This is specifically about Woody Woodpecker episodes, involving Woody Woodpecker characters.
Zeref is not a Woody Woodpecker character, nor has it been demonstrated that non-Woody Woodpecker characters can be forcibly made into Woody Woodpecker characters to fit the narrative.
Dragonite007
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Woody makes Zeref dance Macarena and Zerefe dies for Cringe
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- #36
I never said he would kill Zeref.
That's not how it works, Zeref isn't totally crazy or crazy, and he doesn't even have resistance to it, so he doesn't resist.
It has other ways, be it sealing or metal manipulation that only one gesture is needed.
If that were the case some toon characters could not have plot hax because it comes from the studio.
In Looney Tunes itself there are these kinds of things like warnes studios, warner animators who manipulate the episodes and so on. And it was never talked about, for example.
Yakko from Looney Tunes has a plot ahx of calling a department at universal to pull characters from the show. Yakko fought Kratos and at the time and that was his main wincon, and nobody talked about "Yakko can only call universal, Kratos is not universal, so he resists or is not affected"
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Well he doesn't resist it because he did in fact go insane, but going insane has not stopped him from being a proficient combatant. He's kept fighting despite going insane from his own curse.
The link for the Sealing doesn't work, and Metal Manipulation just straight up isn't even on his profile
Two things:
- That's Looney Tunes, not Woody Woodpecker. What one series does doesn't affect what another series can do.
- That's on the Kratos supporters for not arguing this if it's really the same thing. This specific kind of Plot Manipulation seems to revolve exclusively around the concept of "in this particular show, Woody will always win because the fans demand it." This is not a Woody Woodpecker episode.
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- #40
The woodpecker's madness leaves someone completely out of reality (in the metaphorical sense), like the policeman or the wolf.
Sealing
Sorry it was "mental" not "metal"
Mind Manipulation (Can hypnotized people with a gesture[43], can hypnotized his own reflection[43])
I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. I've never seen this discussed anywhere. It's not even on the plot hax page and I haven't seen anyone else talking about this rule.
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