• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Why is Soul manipulation treated as a dura neg?

DTG499

DTG499

2,619
544
We treat Soul and Ki as two different things on this website but they are both metaphysical concepts that have no true objective way of being measured or scaled to AP.
 
You answered your question....
Soul Manipulation is metaphysical (depending on the verse) meaning it ignores the durability of the target by attacking the metaphysical aspect of it.
 
Ok that makes sense but some verses scale soul manipulation to AP and use soul manip to attack on a physical level. The same way most verses treat Ki they use the metaphysical power to attack on a physical level.
 
Those verses are very rare and typically have justifiable reasons to have soul manipulation tied to AP/DB. Undertale was the only one that worked that way to my knowledge.
 
It isn't assumed that most characters can survive without a soul. And even normal human level characters have killed universal beings via soul extraction.
 
Yeah sure removing someone’s soul is dura neg just like removing someone’s Ki. But when the soul has direct ties to the AP out of someone’s attacks just like Ki I don’t think it should be default dura neg.
 
If a verse uses their soul exactly like how most other verses use ki/chakra/chi as an energy system then that soul manipulation isn't considered durability negation., It's just soul manipulation. Much like if a character moves an object with their spirit it isn't automatically durability negation.

A soul kamehameha style energy blast isn't anything more special than a chakra or key kamehameha style energy blast unless it explicitly is stated to attack the soul or something.
 
Even when it’s stated to attack the soul directly I don’t think it should be considered dura neg when that very same soul has a physical durability like how they show it in dragonball.
 
Wouldn't it still be Durability Negation if it bypasses the Physical Portion of whatever is containing the Soul regardless if the Soul is undamaged.

But if the Soul has no container then the attack just has NPI even if it doesn't damage the Soul it was still able to interact with the Soul.
 
But how? Since Ki is effectively the same thing as Soul but Ki is just used more often as something physical.
 
Ok so since it’s energy that comes from the soul why wouldn’t having high amounts of Ki defend oneself from an attack on the soul? They are both metaphysicals that scale to AP.
 
KI attacks that are able to attack Souls don't have Soul Manipulation rather they get NPI regardless if the attacks don't do any damage.

KI attacks that are able to attack Souls within a container by bypassing the container bcan get Soul Manipulation, Durability Negation, and NPI.
 
The container is only strong because of the soul so why would attacking the soul be any different from attacking the container?
 
Unless there is evidence that being powered by an energy source that comes from the Soul automatically means that you get NPI then Soul Based Attacks can attack the Soul.

It all depends if the container gains NPI from being powered by the Soul, if not, Soul based attacks can bypass the container.
 
NPI isn’t a factor in the conversation because logically you need NPI to interact with Ki but most verse don’t do that. I’m talking about soul manip being treated as hax by default when I think it shouldn’t be hax by default when they scale soul to AP the same way they scale Ki to AP.
 
Can you show an example of when Soul Manipulation is scaled to AP and not Quantity.

Soul Manipulation is different to Soul Based Attacks.
 
But aren't the majority of Bleach Characters souls and everything they do is Soul Based?

Soul Crush is still Soul Manipulation based on quantity of souls affected instead of AP which is currently in the hundreds ( Which may be upgraded into the thousands or millions )
 
DTG499 said:
Yes but they still have AP and dura ratings from those same soul based attacks.
Click to expand...
Soul Based Attacks and not Soul Based Hax.

Soul Manipulation can be either an Attack (which might fall under what you're asking about) or Hax (which doesn't involve AP but rather the number of individuals affected)
 
That’s all I’m saying, I want to draw a very strong distinction between AP based soul attacks and soul hax. I still think attacking the soul directly shouldn’t be a dura neg due the fact of it being the AP source for the container/body.
 
It'd be a case to case basis. You'd need to prove that these characters' bodies/containers are able to block/catch/tank Soul Based Attacks
 
But what’s the proof that the soul based attack can bypass dura when it clearly scales to AP or at the very least scales to Ki.
 
DTG499 said:
But what’s the proof that the soul based attack can bypass dura when it clearly scales to AP or at the very least scales to Ki.
Click to expand...
I did say it would be a case to case basis.

And stop using KI as an argument, people might get the idea you're trying to upgrade DB instead of legitimately answering your questions.
 
It is almost always physical durability negation because it bypasses their physical body and interacts directly with the soul. Whether or not their soul can then resist it is a different story.
 
Depends on context and what verse or what characters have NPI. And sometimes, Souls have some spiritual Ki as well. But it's not entirely Ki or energy.
 
Ki or Chi is just energy. There are different types of Ki in fiction, but regular Ki is just a natural energy source.

Also, the reason for soul manipulation negating durability is more complex than a simple "It's metaphysical". It's like taking their oxygen away from someone. It where you kill someone by taking away the very thing that gives them live and not through raw power.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It where you kill someone by taking away the very thing that gives them live and not through raw power.
Click to expand...
Absorbing the soul/Ki/energy/life force makes sense as hax. But simply “attacking” it directly does not make sense to me because it’s still the source of attack power and durability.
 
It is not? The act of using your own soul as a fuel for an ability is not durability negation. RWBY characters use their souls to create forcefields and strengthen their weapons, but only strike the enemy.

There is nothing inconsistent about it. If you can manipulate the soul of others, then you can ignore their physical body, which is durability negation.
 
Manipulate is a very broad term. I think there needs to be a stronger distinction between soul based attacks and soul hax. Because it seems like some verses get free hax just because there attacks are soul based.
 
DTG499 said:
Manipulate is a very broad term. I think there needs to be a stronger distinction between soul based attacks and soul hax. Because it seems like some verses get free hax just because there attacks are soul based.
Click to expand...
Damaging Souls and Having an attack that's soul based are 2 different things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Padaruyos
How is "countless" universes statement treated in this wiki?
Replies
4
Views
939
DarkDragonMedeus
DarkDragonMedeus
Ang4I00
Conceptual Soul is back(maybe) [DMC CRT]
2
Replies
43
Views
4K
SuperSonicTL
SuperSonicTL
Wikisource
Something like "at the conceptual level"
Replies
10
Views
2K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Ell_luxxy
  • Locked
Added Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 (Rinnegan User).
2
Replies
70
Views
5K
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
Is principle manipulation even stronger then conceptual manipulation?
Replies
2
Views
2K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Back
Top