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Why is he tier 0? (Azathoth in Demonbane)

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You can ask some of the Demonbane experts for more information if you want. I'm just saying what they've told me.

However if a mere avatar of his was sealed within his own dream by a figment of his imagination then that does not he isn't Tier 0 in the slightest.

How does EGD having full control of the figmented world inside Azathoth's imaginary dream at all mean that he is on Azathoth's level or could stalemate him? And again technically everyone is powered by Azathoth. That doesn't change anything about his power or tier or make everyone comparable to Azathoth.
 
I don't think being able manipulate all if existence really implies that he had any real authority to like rewrite the dream if he wanted to or anything of the sort, and existence on the highest analog still exists inside Azathoth's dream, so manipulating all of it would still not affect him at all.

And where is the whole knowledge thing shown? All concepts exist within and are below Yog-Sothoth, if I recall correctly, who is bound by the Dream.
 
@Ryu

Who would be some good people to ask? Like, I'm not trying to start a flamewar or spite DB or anything, I'm just generally trying to work through some confusion and whatnot.

And yes, I agree, that would then imply that the avatar is High 1-A and not 0 instead. However, I'm mainly debating the validity of the avatar statement given that every source I've looked up so far says the whole Court of Azathoth got sealed in the Polyhedron to begin with. Him having full control isn't necessarily what I'm saying compares him to Azzy, it's drawing on Azzy's own power and being independent from Yog. Also @Hadou, Demonbane's powers are expressly stated to violate logic and possibility, so it seems rather likely that the dream itself is being affected and not just the nature of what is and isn't.
 
I'm aware of the page and whatnot. I've gone to the blog post where the tiers for the characters were listed as well as the reasonings behind them, and I have found no indication of Azzy in his court being intended to be an avatar; it seems strongly to be referring to the main thing, evidenced in this:

A window on all of space-time, granting its user arcane secrets and knowledge in exchange for terrible sacrifices,

in Demonbane, the Shining Trapezohedron is a portal to a prison universe containing Azathoth itself; the Court of Azathoth,

for those sent there to be tortured for all of eternity.

It is the most powerful offensive weapon. This is the type of weapon used to take to battle against Nyarlathoptep.

EGD was described as being capable of doing this, and some of these Demonbanes are *also* High 1-A beings (Like Demonbane Two-Sword)

There was Demonbane driven by nobody at all. There was Demonbane driven by a non-human There was Demonbane that was not a robot. There was Demonbane made out of flesh and blood. There was massive Demonbane. There was little Demonbane. There was Demonbane with the form of a beast. There was Demonbane with no form at all. There was liquid Demonbane. There was vapourous Demonbane. There was Demonbane in the form of ionized matter. There was Demonbane with an ethereal body. There was Demonbane with two swords. There was Demonbane which resembled blood. There was Demonbane with two engines. There was Demonbane with three faces and six arms. There was Demonbane that brought an infinite amount of soldiers. There was Demonbane who rode a dragon. There was Demonbane that is a space battleship. There was Demonbane with light sword that can cut through a star. There was Demonbane that was God. There was Demonbane that was fell into evil. There was Demonbane that fused with a human. There was Demonbane that was reborn as a human. There was Demonbane that existed in that past. There was Demonbane that exist in the present. There were Demonbane that existed now. There were Demonbane that would exist in the future. There were Demonbane from other possibilities. There were Demonbane that had no possibility. There were Demonbane that traveled through the end of space and time.

In the same blogpost, Azathoth is *also* called God (in the singular) which further emphasizes EGD as being one with all the possibilities of Azzy's dream.

Additionally, this is stated about Azathoth, and while not pertaining necessarily to EGD, it does seem to have some metafiction implications:


When he wakes, it will end

It will simply vanish, and there will be no one to know or remember it

Or perhaps it simply will have never existed at all

So is the world really nothing more than a fantasy?

But even the god who dreams at the center of the world, the god who created all things, can never, ever destroy it
 
I think that there's a real possibility. That or the other rating.
 
Well, like I said, a relevant limitation from an outside source must be established for this downgrade to happen. It is either established or not. I'm not too knowledgeable on the verse, so I can't make any big decisions regarding it, but it sounds like if Azathoth can be genuinely sealed away against his will, even if it does not hinder him, that he should still be High 1-A due to the principle of being able to be sealed away against his will.
 
You can ask Matt or Azzy.
 
Then I think DarkLK should clarify this, as he's the one who made the claim in the first place. I'm also going off of what was in that blog and what I've gathered off the internet. I'll also ask Matt what he thinks based on the verbiage used in the blog (which implies that even the non "dream self," if that is truly the case, is *also* limited, as the true form is explicitly stated to not be able to do something, even in a metafiction sense (which is contradictory to the 0 rating) so maybe the best course of action is actually 2 High 1-A keys, or maybe even an At least 1-A and High 1-A key. (Since the ST is rated at 1-A and not High 1-A)
 
I am personally pretty tired of Demonbane at this point. The author constantly contradicts the original canon with DYN Freaks, and it was just an obscure hentai-ish fiction that almost nobody has sufficient information about to start with.
 
I can understand and agree with that, @Ant. There would never be this kind of confusion if it weren't so contradictory about its parameters, with the author, from what I understand, not really helping matters out.
 
Guys, it's pretty well obvious by now that anything that supposedly happened is just a "dream". That in itself is metaphorically said enough.
 
@Prospect

True, but that doesn't really address the contradictions made in the canon about the characters which have been presented. If a tier 0 character *can't* do something, even if the thing in question is metafictional, then they're not tier 0 to begin with. If they can be limited in any way, even the smallest, most inconsequential way, then they're not tier 0 by its very definition, which is not having any limitations or caveats within the story's verse.
 
Wait, so there's different canon, too? That throws in an entirely new can of beans to this mess.
 
Yes, DYN Freaks. It is basically kindergarten fight level compared to the original canon though, so the ACF wiki ignored it, and per extension ourselves.
 
Anyway, there was somebody familiar with Demonbane who said that he would try to revise and improve our profiles for the verse a little while ago. Perhaps that will help?
 
It would be useful if he were able to. Aside from the aforementioned contradictory and possibly erroneous statistics (likely due to misunderstandings), a lot of those profiles are barebones and really don't describe in enough detail why such characters are rated as they are.
 
Well, that's also a alternative though i think ALRF was going to help the guy i mentioned, maybe him?
 
Well, in any case the profiles definitely need a revision. It also shouldn't be a massive loss if we delete them.
 
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