Why is he tier 0? (Azathoth in Demonbane)

[Aeyu]

Even though he cannot be defeated, he still possesses a limitation; that being his ability to be sealed or restrained in some way. Though I understand its qualitative superiority to EGD and Yog-Sothoth, the fact still remains that being able to be affected by a power supposedly beneath your ken doesn't seem indicative of 0 to me, but rather a higher degree of High 1-A analogous to the Nameless Mist in the Cthulhu-verse.

 

[DMUA]

I'll agree with this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure that the whole reason why he was sealed is that he's asleep and not remotely trying to fight back against the seal. Though I don't know enough about DB to say if it's true.

 

[Ryukama]

I don't know tbh, though I have been told that it's an avatar of Azathoth's that got sealed, not Azathoth itself.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, I'm aware of the situation, but I still think that whether consensual or not, that provides a limitation, in that it's not a situation created by Azathoth, but a situation impressed on him by an outside factor, i.e, he can be affected by hax to some degree, however small.

 

[Ryukama]

Well if everything takes place within Azathoth's dream, then it is a situation created by him. And why would an avatar he uses having limitations mean his true self does?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'd say it only matters if the Seal really affected Azathoth in any meaningful way rather than just putting him into a box to use his powers.

 

[Aeyu]

It's still implicating a situation on him, though, however paradoxical it might be. This is a High 1-A being introducing hax onto this rendition of Azathoth, so I believe it's maybe a little more complex than just the nature of the dream, what with EGD transcending existence and all that. Also, where is it stated that the source of EGD's power was an avatar and not the real Azathoth?

 

[Ryukama]

The entire series takes place within his dream, and in his dream only an avatar of his got sealed. How does this imply he was affected at all? If an imaginary person defeats a lesser vessel that I used in my own dream does that mean that figment of my imagination is at all superior to me or can actually affect me?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

A figment of your imagination, no matter how powerful.... Is still just a thought in your head. It can't harm you in any way... Just like a 3rd dimensional object cannot affect a Infinite-D one.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

See, the only problem I can see is the assumption that demonbane=original. Unless I'm mistaken, we only erase them as such due to the lack of reliability of WOG

 

[Aeyu]

But where is it stated that it's an avatar? I'm not saying "oh you're wrong," or anything, I'm just legitimately curious, and maybe that should be clarified in Azzy's page. And well this is a little more metaphysical than that (At least IMO) If EGD is independent of Yog, why would he be considered part of the dream at all except maybe ephemerally? I get that him being lesser than Azzy is implicit in the definition of his existence (and I'm also aware of how the Cthulhu Mythos is structured), but here's the thing: Wouldn't an aspect of a 0 still be a 0? If that being is the source of EGD's power, and EGD is a High 1-A who is >= Yog-Sothoth, why wouldn't he be recieving his power from the source of the dream? It seems as though EGD can introduce as many contradictory situations and realities as it needs to, displaying that it has control over the nature of the dream, as well as being able to destroy all of existence.

 

[Ryukama]

1. As I said I don't know, just that this was what I was told.

2. Because even those beyond Yog are still part of Azathoth's dream, and nothing besides Azathoth is outside of his dream. How does EGD being independent of Yog at all imply he isn't part of the dream?

3. Technically everything is an aspect of Azathoth, that doesn't mean everything is Tier 0. And Tier 0s can essentially do whatever they want. If they want a figment of their imagination to capture a lesser vessel they possessed, then so be it. And that again doesn't imply that Azathoth actually has limitations. Just an imaginary vessel of his does.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Why do we assume demonbane=original though?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We don't. It's just that Demonbane stole most of the quotes that makes the Mythos 1-A/0

 

[Yobo_Blue]

We don't. It's just that Demonbane stole most of the quotes that makes the Mythos 1-A/0

Ah, I see. What are the quotes for Azathoth?

 

[Aeyu]

The main point defending this is that EGD can heavily manipulate the fabric of said dream, and go into as many contradictions as it sees fit, up to and including defending the notion that it could entrap the notion of the source of said power in the first place. If what is happening at this level is beyond causality, it could be some retroactive future force that allowed EGD to control Azzy to some degree, through Azzy's own power, allowing him to seal Azzy in the first place. So this would at least put EGD as being comparable to Azathoth, not to mention the nature of the power he was given implying that he could affect a presumed tier 0 due to the implicit nature of the abilities he is stated to possess. Under those terms, Azzy seems more like the one and only case of an At least High 1-A that could ever exist, in that though a situation was imposed on him by a being of comparable nature who, through retroactive non-linear causality, was able to harness those powers, he was still limited by the ramifications of his own dream/nature.

I'm sorry if that's all a mouthful x-x

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

The Writer has a lesser vessel get beat up during the Animal Man comic. "I made you do that".

 

[Ryukama]

Azathoth himself according to what the Demonbane experts have told me, never got sealed. Only that imaginary vessel did. Demonbane is a literal figment of Azathoth's imagination. Therefore they are not at all comparable nor can Demonbane actually affect him. Demonbane having reality warping within the dream doesn't at all indicate those things either.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

What are the quotes reused for Azahoth?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Doesn't this go into "Questionable Omnipotence "?

 

[Aeyu]

Then maybe there should be a key for the source of the power used, if the actual entity never appears. Because DB *is* getting his power from something, something which through nonlinear causality let him seal an aspect of Azathoth, whether complete or not. Additionally, my above thing was referencing how if Azathoth indeed gave him that power, wouldn't Azathoth be sort of limiting himself in away by even letting an aspect of himself be cancelled or nulled out? The key point still is that he isn't consciously aware of these events, nor is EGD restricted by Yog-Sothoth's framework.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Azathoth letting an avatar of himself be harmed is not necessarily limiting. This would be like saying Kami Tenchi is High 1-A because he has a 10-Bish avatar, and The Writer is High 1-A because they let a vessel of them, specifically Morrison be harmed by Animal Man and I believe eventually defeated. An avatar of Azathoth getting sealed away isn't really a direct limit to Azathoth, just to his Avatar. It doesn't affect him in any way. Nothing implies that Azathoth tried his hardest to like keep EGD from sealing him away. I have doubt that Azathoth cared.

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with TheHadouCyberspaceWitch

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

(someone actually agreeing with me one something like this here. ;-; it's heart-warming)

 

[Ryukama]

Lol it's no biggie. You're a smart person. Don't sweat it

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

>~< Thank youuuu

So Aeyu, does this answer your question?

 

[Aeyu]

While I don't disagree with you, even being able to be tapped as a source of power is indicative of at least a miniscule limitation. As I keep saying, EGD's power to control literally all of existence is derived from this form of Azathoth, whether the real one or the avatar, and it is implied to be capable of breaking laws of consistency in logic. Furthermore, I still am still asserting the potentiality that maybe what was tapped wasn't an avatar, but the real thing. Such a statement is not implied in the character's profile that I'm aware of. Regardless, it's still my belief that either this character needs a safe lower end like At least High 1-A, likely 0, or two keys. The profile definitely needs further clarification.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I think a High 1-A key for an Avatar and a 0 for the actual dreamer would make sense.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

"High Outerversal(Is a direct Avatar of the True Azathoth, being only conventionally limited by him, and also limited as being sealed away by the Double Shining Trapezohedron, and being used as a power source.) | True Infinity(Whatever his justification with the dream being existence and whatnot blah blah I don't remember it word for word)".

 

[Aeyu]

Still. Is there any verification of the implicit nature that the characters need to be separated? Otherwise, I generally agree, though I could define the keys if needed.

 

[Ryukama]

Technically Azathoth is the source of everything's power, since Azathoth dreamed up everything and entities who embody or are beyond everything. Also if Azathoth is willingly letting a figment of his imagination tap into the power of another figment of his imagination, how does that prove he has limitations?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

An Avatar of Azathoth is not equivalent to the actual Azathoth. That is the main reason separation is likely necessary.

 

[Aeyu]

That's the thing though. You've said these experts have said that the thing that was sealed was an avatar, but what's the proof of that (their statements, I'm not trying to sound insulting >~>) Everything I've seen seems to point toward the polyhedron implicitly holding Azathoth's true domain within it, as well as what's outlined in the profiles. Since it is the source of all the power, additionally, if EGD is able to harness this power to any degree outside of causality (space and time relative things) then that means that EGD's capability to manipulate the totality of the dream is by him harnessing Azathoth's power directly. The fact that Azathoth's power is being tapped into at all is what led me to (as well as the implication of being sealed through something's hax) the conclusion that the dream is being manipulated by EGD, thus implying, while the nature of it being miniscule, a limitation to Azzy's control over the nature of its own dream, which could possibly be implied with EGD being able to wipe out everything in the dream (exceptions being Azzy and Yog) and existing independently of Yog-Sothoth.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

He does exist independent of Yog, if I recall, Yog isn't entirely the same nature as he is in the original Mythos, he shouldn't be fully Omnipresent, so that may need to be revised. Uhm, also, I guess we would just need some people from the Knowledgeable Members List to talk here that are knowledgeable on Demonbane. I do believe it is an Avatar, but if it is not, then I suppose that Demonbane would just lack an Omnipotent if this is actually seen as a valid limitation.

 

[DMUA]

This reminds me of something right from the Omnipotence blog that was eventually turned into the Omnipotence page:

"Is it possible for an omnipotent to retract his Omnipotence?

Yes, as shown with Jesus, Omnipotents can lower themselves from Omnipotence"

Or something like that. I haven't read it in so long.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, I think that At least High 1-A, possibly 0 (Unused, niche rating, but I think aptly describes the situation) would work instead of blatant downgrade.

And well, I've read Kevyn Souza's blog (which is extremely well made, mind you ) and my point is more trying to defend the argument that since Azzy was unaware of what was happening, and EGD arguably exists outside of the dream, or at the very least existence, that the paradoxical, non-linear nature of logic at that level might dictate that EGD was capable of violating the laws of that verse to some degree, which was something outside of Azzy's "plan," and something he didn't account for, possibly leading to the situation where Azzy and his court were able to be sealed to any degree. This *implies* a limitation more than anything, which is why I would defend the aforementioned rating than a concrete downgrade, but both are possible, at least IMO.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Nothing happens outside of the knowledge of Azathoth. All knowledge, and the concept of knowledge itself, exists within him. The argument can be made that he knows nothing, but tier 0s aren't required to be Omniscient, as the concept of knowledge means absolutely nothing to them on any analog, and thus lacking it wouldn't serve as an actual limitation that is induced by any outside force. An "at least High 1-A, possibly 0" tier does not seem reasonable, as it implies that there is something that possibly limits Azathoth on a relevant degree, and if there is any such implication in-series that a valid element within his own dream limits him, he would only be High 1-A. But like I mentioned before, we should wait for a knowledgeable member to verify whether or not the Azathoth in question was an avatar or not.

 

[Aeyu]

Where is this shown though? The only defense for that I can see is that Azzy (DB) is supposed to be relative to Azzy (CM) which I don't really see. And the prevailing argument seems to be again and again that Azzy is the sole proprietor of its own dream, but the fact of the matter is that by EGD manipulating literally all of existence, that would imply that Azzy's dream is being manipulated too, and put EGD at a point where he would stalemate Azzy logically even if Azzy > EGD. So putting EGD at that level, and then the implication that he's being powered by Azathoth's court and indeed Azzy himself, at least to me heavily hints that EGD *was* manipulating at least to some small degree the real Azathoth, though this can't necessarily be confirmed either, which puts this character at an interesting crossroads, being the reason I suggested such a rating.

 

[TataHakai]

but tier 0s aren't required to be Omniscient

This is wrong, an omnipotent is required to have absolutely every ability and counter to that ability and the counter to that counter and so on, they can do anything which includes being omniscient

ANY weakness at all (Such as not being omniscient) automatically debunks omnipotence.