• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Why does Creation count as an AP feat? (Staff only)

Status
Not open for further replies.
RashFaustinho

RashFaustinho

230
51
Quick question regarding the Attack Potency tiering:

Why is the creation of something (like a Universe), or his merging, being treated as an AP feat?

There are some verses that are abusing this to get a tiering that doesn't make any sense (IMHO). Why should the creation of something, or, the feat of influencing something "big" (i.e. merging two galaxies) should result in a combat applyable Attack Potency?

I get that this SHOULD be the most logical consequence (you can create something, you can destroy it) but a lot of verses seem to NOT work like that.

Often, when looking at certain characters, certain creation feats do not equal their combat efficiency when they're fighting.

Note: Staff only
 
Not an expert on the topic, but I think it's because creation feats requires create matter and we can have energy from matter creation.
 
Calaca Vs said:
Not an expert on the topic, but I think it's because creation feats requires create matter and we can have energy from matter creation.
Click to expand...
What bothers me it's not that they have the energy to do it - What bothers me is assuming that they can use that same energy to fight or hurt an opponent

Again, it may sound logical, and it is at least in a realish-world perspective, but it doesn't look like this rule is followed in fiction - Like, at all.
 
Not necessarily.

Take this into consideration:

X character created a city-worthy construction, so he gets City level energy. Said energy is something he can use and comes directly from his body.

Then Y character comes and Falcon Punches X character, almost killing him.

So, if X character can use his own energy with no harm but Y character's strike could harm him, that means Y character packs more energy.

It's usually like that. I also think your argument about offensive purposes falls in a fallacious argument, but I'm not sure so take that with a grain of salt.

The rest is legit, tho. That's how powerscaling works when applying Newton's Third Law.
 
Well, I suggest you to wait more input. I'm not the most knowledgeable user around about the topic.
 
i agree most creating is just reality warping not ap

just because a character had energy able to make star doesnt mean he can use that energy as attack power
 
The staff have discussed this topic extensively several times before, and the answer is basically "in lack of better options", since instantly creating, for example, a pocket universe containing several full galaxies inside of it, is not quantifiable otherwise. I am uneasy with it, but we don't have any better available alternative than simply scaling by size for large scale creation feats, or GBE for creating celestial bodies.
 
I personally don't agree with this standard. Fiction treats creation and destruction differently. Energy has different applications and characters should show that they can use their creation energy in a destructive manner.
 
Possibly, but we have not figured out a better standard for this yet. Perhaps you can ask DontTalkDT and Azathoth about it?
 
AKM sama said:
I personally don't agree with this standard. Fiction treats creation and destruction differently. Energy has different applications and characters should show that they can use their creation energy in a destructive manner.
Click to expand...
Is this statement not generalizing. Can you provide evidence that this is the case? Because, this idea will cause a major revision across the site.
 
For pocket dimensions I could see that being the case, but things like creator dieties being Low 2-C or Planet creation implying a planet level character both seem like fair assumptions
 
Andytrenom said:
For pocket dimensions I could see that being the case, but things like creator dieties being Low 2-C or Planet creation implying a planet level character both seem like fair assumptions
Click to expand...
I mean, I disagree. What make a small pocket realm any less legit that creating a planet or universe? Especially if said pocket realms have planets and stars. Either way, I wait for more input.
 
@Dragon Normally they seem more like a non AP related ability than a blatant demonstration of power a creator diety creating the universe would be. That said it's just something I don't find 100% legit as opposed to something I actively want to change
 
How is that? In both cases they are creating realms of varying sizes with their power. How are they different? It seems like we are judging them on title alone.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Is this statement not generalizing. Can you provide evidence that this is the case? Because, this idea will cause a major revision across the site.
Click to expand...
I don't think the burden of proof falls on me when the opposing side claims that the energy used by a character to create a planet (or other heavenly body) can be used as destructive power without any proof. Most of the times, the character in question never displays a destruction feat of that level (and at other times, the creation is achieved by reality warping which doesn't scale to AP).

I personally don't think it's fair to assume this as default.
 
Haven't we've already done that in previous threads? Aren't you the ones who should debunk those previous reasons. This is not the first time this has come up, yet the standard has stayed the same. Plus you just made the claim that fiction generally treats it this way which is not something brought up in our standard.
 
Andytrenom said:
Actually Reality Warping often scales to AP here
Click to expand...
I don't have a problem with a character getting a tier by reality warping. If a character can make a galaxy disappear with a clap, then he should be galaxy level with reality warping.

But the idea of just assuming every character can use the creation energy in a destructive manner without proof just doesn't sit well with me.
 
I don't want to give the impression that I'm arguing against Pocket dimensions=AP since I only have skepticisms about it, not full blown problems but

A character being able to destroy with the same energy he uses to create is what should need to be proven, not him being unable to do it
 
Creation feats are a bit case by case, but often times creating planets and stars required harnessing similar levels of energy as destroying them. And that's especially true of the planets, stars, and pocket realities are creating out of nothingness. Genjutsus/illusions are a completely different story, but creating a pocket reality with countless stars out of nothing where the stars are indeed physical is easily Tier 4.

Same with giving birth to universes and multiverses. Those are often blatantly Tier 2, especially if performed by characters intended to be "All powerful gods".
 
I personally think as long as they demonstrate the powers used for the Creation are combat applicable, it should be fine.
 
I moved this to the staff forum, to keep the discussion from quickly growing completely out of control. The topic has also been discussed repeatedly previously, so I don't wish to waste too much of our limited time and energy on it over and over.
 
@DDM I think the question is if the creation feats scale to someone's destructive ability, not whether they require the same amount of energy as destruction feats
 
I vehemently disagree with this "you need to prove it can be used as destructive energy" notion.

Creation is a concept in general that is more difficult to acomplish, power and effort wise, than destruction is. If you are able to create something to your specifications, you should have 0 issues inputting that same energy into a destructive action, especially if energy manipulation is nothing but a cake walk.

This argument is also assuming that characters are unable to use their energy for different actions, which doesnt make any sense. It's akin to saying a person who uses energy to walk suddenly cant use energy to hold something. Why assume their uses of energy are only limited to certain actions without a shred of evidence to support that?
 
It should be a more case by case basis

For example creating celestial bodies out of your own energy (not hax) should be treated as the same as destruction, because the GBE of that celestial body still needs to come from you

And in the case of "we don't know if they created it with hax or actually put energy into it" then i'm not sure how we should treat that
 
This has been discussed dozens of times and the answer is always the same.

  • Character X, Y or Z waves his arms and a universe pops into existence.
This means the character in question infused his body or his arms with mystical energy that, when dispersed, accomplished the feat of creating said universe.

There is absolutely no reason to assume they can't infuse their energy blasts with the same energy they put into use for creating whole dimensions, planets, galaxies or universes.

Take something similar to Boros' CSRC, which requires him to use all the energy sealed inside his body, completely exhausts him, and reduces his lifespan a lot. Theoretically, one could say he would be able to infuse the energy he used for that into a normal punch, but logic would dictate that the effects would be the same, and it'd be just one-single super punch that'd exhaust him completely and have significant side-effects, just like CSRC, so it wouldn't scale to Striking Strength or Normal AP.

But something like creating a universe with no visible side effects to your stamina, health, or reserves? We can easily assume they can infuse their serious physical attacks and energy blasts with the same energy.
 
If thats a problem, then the burden of proof is on those who claim "creation is nothing but a hax for x character"

And even then thats not entirely true. Hax abilities do require you to use energy in some cases, so it should not become a "one size fits all" kind of standard. So yeah on that I do agree its case by case.
 
Kepekley23 said:
*wall of text*
Click to expand...
But shouldn't there be some type of proof that it requires any energy for them? Or should the burden of proof be on the person saying it was hax like Kukui said?
 
TataHakai said:
For example creating celestial bodies out of your own energy (not hax) should be treated as the same as destruction, because the GBE of that celestial body still needs to come from you
Click to expand...
The energy still comes from the character, doesn't mean the character can use that same energy to destroy.

@Kukui

That works both ways. If your argument is that you can put energy into creation so you should be able to put the same energy into destruction, because both are just energy manipulation and they shouldn't be limited to only certain actions, then what stops me from saying that the character can create a galaxy if he is able to destroy a galaxy.

Point is, both are different applications. Just because you can do something with energy, doesn't mean you can do the other thing with the same efficiency.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Fwyzzverse
Timeframe | Creation Feats (Revision)
Replies
33
Views
2K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
SunDaGamer
  • Locked
Minor change on the Creation Feats page
Replies
12
Views
1K
Antvasima
Antvasima
D.bunk01
Why does Doma's ice sculpture feat count towards his AP?
Replies
3
Views
503
SeijiSetto
SeijiSetto
  • Locked
Why can't characters be assigned a 5-C tier without calculations?
Replies
32
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
omegabronic
(STAFF ONLY) EE AP revision
8 9 10
Replies
399
Views
28K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top