Why Aren't Black Hole Related Feats Quantifiable?

[Reppuzan]

This morning I checked my email to find that someone has nerfed Geo Stelar's and Solo's stats from 4-B to 5-A on the premise that Black Hole Feats were suddenly declared unquantifiable. That's going from Foe to Yottatons with barely an explantion.

It would be an understatement to say that I'm vehemently against this edit.

So before I start an edit war I'd like to ask a few questions.

1. Why isn't Black Hole Scaling valid?

2. If not, would using calculations based on the black hole used (since it's a real black hole, Sagittarius A* ) make it valid for this particular example?

 

[SomebodyData]

In fiction, the black holes tend to not work as they do in real life, thats why.

I think

 

[DontTalk]

which type of black hole feat are we talking about? Not all are unquantifiable, but many.

Black hole creation for example works as AP feat, while destruction usually doesn't.

 

[Promestein]

Black hole scaling is not always valid due to black holes usually working much differently.

In addition, surviving a black hole is unquantifiable.

Just read this.

 

[Reppuzan]

Geo Stelar is scaled off the fact that Sirius is able to control the Supermassive Black Hole in the middle of the Milky Way Galaxy seemingly effortlessly and sucked an untold number of planets into nonexistence when doing so. In fact, it is stated that he has the ability to control any black hole he is aware of, with no specified limit on said range.

Sirius can also control Apollo Flame, who creates miniature stars as part of his attacks, and can easily force out the Three Sages of Planet AM and Cepheus (who are Small Planet Level at the very least) and resurrected every deleted boss in the game with no effort on his part (though he does call Apollo Flame troublesome).

Geo can easily prance around inside Sagitarrius A* as well with no ill effects as a showcase of his lifting strength and durability as well as leave whenever he wants as a testament to his speed. This is the same Black Hole that is large enough to fit the Sun and several planets of our Solar System inside. In addition, Sirius blasts holes in the battlefield while fighting Geo, meaning he blasted through the super dense gravity of a black hole that can easily crush a star. Geo can also survive this attack as a further showcase to his durability.

Geo then defeats Sirius (but admittedly with great effort), meaning that his AP exceeded Sirius's ability to survive the pressure of his own black holes as well as the star-like attacks of Apollo Flame.

In addition, Geo can also create black holes large enough to engulf the entire battlefield (meaning a sizable portion of Sagittarius A*), which he uses to trap his opponent before detonating it with a sword slash. Once again, he's capable of doing this while inside the single biggest black hole in our galaxy.

How does this stack up?

 

[Promestein]

Again, surviving a black hole is not quantifiable. Black holes have infinite mass and any 3-dimensional object would logically be destroyed instantly within one. So, anything about having the durability to survive a black hole is not valid as anything but a specific ability to survive within black holes.

The other things look fine, to my knowledge and understanding of things, but I'm not an expert on this, so.

 

[DontTalk]

Durability wise not much. Converting tidal forces (resistence to force) into durability (resistance to energy) is not really possible. At least I know no method of doing so. If he is able to take hits from someone with equal attack potency on the other hand you can scale from that.

For moving Sagittarius A*, that feat seems fine in my opinion.

 

[Reppuzan]

I suppose. That explains why we don't have Solar System Durability Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash...

Still, shouldn't his AP be Solar System Level at the least? He did beat Sirius who sucked in at least a dozen planets halfheartedly.

 

[Reppuzan]

So is it okay to change his AP and Durability back to Solar System Level (no "At least")?

 

[DontTalk]

I would think it seems ok.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Well, the result was like 100 kiloFoe. Would that qualify for "at least"? Especially since it was done with no effort?

 

[DontTalk]

Well, I will leave that estimation to those that know the series.

 

[Reppuzan]

It got changed back and locked... I don't mean to complain but why did this happen again?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Ask Antvasima, Reppuzan. He doesn't know about this thread, that's why.

 

[Antvasima]

Black Hole feats in fictio are generally unquantifiable unless the black hole in question behaves exactly like a real one, and creating one does not automatically scale to physical statistics.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. After reading the above explanation I am not so certain any more.

The reason for the change was that after we considered Super Mario Galaxy Bowser creating a black hole as a specific feat that did not scale to his or Mario's general statistics, Dino Ranger Black thought that other characters with black hole fears should receive the same treatment for the sake of consistency.

 

[Reppuzan]

I just thought that if Mega Man was able to defeat someone who can command enough force to swing around literally any black hole in his vicinity, he would be Solar System Level based on the calcs provided by the The Everlasting and the fact that Sirius is able wield this kind of power effortlessly while fighting Mega Man at the same time.

As for consistency's sake, Sirius transfers all of his power to the Crimson Dragon after his defeat, resulting in Crimson Dragon Sigma, which Mega Man also defeats as part of the plot.

So it's the less about the creation of the black holes anymore but more about the amount of kinetic energy required to manuever them (particularly the Milky Way Galaxy's Supermassive Black Hole) across the galaxy (Sirius is able to move his black holes between solar systems in 24 hours based on the timeframe given to Mega Man by the Sages in the post game).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, did the black holes behave like real ones in the sense that they destroyed absolutely anything that came into contact with them?

Regardless, we can probably only gauge them by their scale. If the largest black hole was capable of sucking in several solar systems, then that is a legitimate 4-A feat.

However, I don't think that it should necessarily scale to durability or other physical statistics.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Did Sirius move the said black hole through physical means? From what I heard and been told, moving something through means of hax and other source of power doesn't scale to the characters actual AP. Someone made a similar mistake with My Little Pony characters, calling them Moon and Star level for moving the Sun and Moon via magic. Plus, as far as I'm concern, Sirius still kept his AP. It's his durability and Megaman Starforce's stats that were changed.

 

[Reppuzan]

According to the Sages, said planets were sucked into "nonexistence" so I assume they were pulverized into oblivion as you said, so they were realistic in that regard.

I was just under the assumption that Sirius was able to channel this kind of force into his attacks considering the hard fight he provided Mega Man who absolutely crushed the Crimson Dragon after Finalizing. He fought Mega Man to a near standstill. In addition, Sirius easily fought off King Cepheus and the 3 Sags of Planet AM at the same time, who are all Small Planet - Planet Level. Considering the fact that Mega Man trounced all four of them (though Cepheus's primary power is through his control of Andromeda, it is still mentioned that he is fighting to delay Sirius's Black Hole Attacks).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, trouncing four planet level foes does not remotely automatically scale to being at least 10^15 times more powerful.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

According to the Sages, said planets were sucked into "nonexistence" so I assume they were pulverized into oblivion as you said, so they were realistic in that regard.
I was just under the assumption that Sirius was able to channel this kind of force into his attacks considering the hard fight he provided Mega Man who absolutely crushed the Crimson Dragon after Finalizing. He fought Mega Man to a near standstill. In addition, Sirius easily fought off King Cepheus and the 3 Sags of Planet AM at the same time, who are all Small Planet - Planet Level. Considering the fact that Mega Man trounced all four of them (though Cepheus's primary power is through his control of Andromeda, it is still mentioned that he is fighting to delay Sirius's Black Hole Attacks).

That would still make him planet level, however.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

It's just hard to scale them since many characters can use black hole attacks

 

[Reppuzan]

I just find it weird that characters like Zeus from the Hercules movie have AP scaled to Solar System Level for being able to casually move around stars yet here an exception is being made despite the fact that it runs on similar logic. Black holes are collapsed stars and are thus calculated by the Schwartzhild Radius equation right?

Put it this way. If Zeus is Multi-Solar System Level for shifting stars (and has the durability to match), why is Sirius (and by extension Mega Man, who duked it out with him in close combat) only considered Planet Level in statistics.

I also find it farfetched that a mere Planet Buster can take on a Multi Solar System Buster. Especially since said Solar System Busters can defeat people like Apollo Flame, who throws around small stars as part of his casual arsenal of attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, being able to destroy multiple solar systems should not automatically scale to durability, lifting strength, and striking strength, but unfortunately most profiles in this wiki likely do not take this into account.

 

[Reppuzan]

Then at the very least why were the links to Mega Man's different forms taken out? Those had nothing to do with his physical stats.

It also feels kind of lonely considering the fact that I'm the only one defending Mega here...

 

[Antvasima]

I vaguely remember removing a link that I thought was a black hole energy calculation. My apologies if this was incorrect. Which profile was this in?

 

[Reppuzan]

Mega Man's profile had three links that lead to his Star Break , Tribe O , and Noise Change profiles under the Key.

In addition, he ca create his own black holes when in his Black Ace form, which he uses to instantly one shot the final boss even after getting a boost from Sirius. According to the post, that would put him at Large Star Level at the least.

 

[Antvasima]

All right. I will unlock the profiles. You can fix them accordingly.

 

[Antvasima]

However, we can likely only classify his black hole's power by the scale of what it can do.

 

[Reppuzan]

Quick question before I finish editing. Would his durability be on the same level as his AP considering the fact that Apollo Flame threw stars of similar size and magnitude at Mega Man during their fight?

 

[Antvasima]

His AP shouldn't be changed unless his "black holes" have been shown as able to devour entire stars or solar systems. Throwing a full size star at somebody does however qualify for that kind of level.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the character having a full size star thrown at him or her, that is trickier and depends on the circumstances. It is just an ignited giant ball of gas after all, so a comparatively very small character shouldn't remotely feel the entire force of the impact from the force used to hurl one.

 

[Reppuzan]

Alright done.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I'm glad we have that settled. Sorry everyone. I left to watch the Star Wars movie. Quite a good start if I do, say so myself.

 

[ClassicGameGuys]

Sagittarius A* is a real life black hole with a real life given mass, Sirius moved that mass quickly enough to reach a nearby planet in 24 hours, Sirius emitted that much kinetic energy from his body, Sirius states Apollo Flame is on par with him, Geo defeated Apollo twice before Sirius himself. What more is there to debate? Geo is multi-solar system level (small galaxy level going by OBD scale I edited but meh)

 

[Antvasima]

I asked DontTalk about this, and he thought that it was okay, so I edited the pages back to their Solar System level state.

The tricky parts with black holes in fiction is basically when they don't behave at all like real ones, such as non-infinite characters withstanding a singularity, wrestling with them as if they were tangible, dispersing them through physical force, or if they suddenly appear and disappear. I am not the best at gauging where exactly to draw the line however.

 

[MasterWinduTheThird]

Sagittarius A* is a real life black hole with a real life given mass, Sirius moved that mass quickly enough to reach a nearby planet in 24 hours, Sirius emitted that much kinetic energy from his body, Sirius states Apollo Flame is on par with him, Geo defeated Apollo twice before Sirius himself. What more is there to debate? Geo is multi-solar system level (small galaxy level going by OBD scale I edited but meh)

I say Apollo Flame, Rogue, Sirius and Geo should be at least 4-A, but whatever.

Also, it was Sirius' power that controlled Sagitarrius A, not some hax ability.