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Where does Gandalf get his 4-A rating from.

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Blademan9999

Blademan9999

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Gandalf is rated 4-A for defeating Durins bane.

Durina bane's only feat is fighting Gandalf.

This is an obvious problem.

I seriously cannot figure out what the chain of characaters used to get Gandalf to multi-solarsystem level.
 
I cannot see who Gandalf scales from Varda.

And anyway even that feat should on get a 4-C/high 4-C rating, and the timescale is unknown, and the minimum energy required for 4-A is quadrillions of times higher then the minimum for 4-C
 
Blademan9999 said:
I cannot see who Gandalf scales from Varda.
And anyway even that feat should on get a 4-C/high 4-C rating, and the timescale is unknown, and the minimum energy required for 4-A is quadrillions of times higher then the minimum for 4-C
Click to expand...
At least Multi-Solar System level (She created an innumerable number of stars)

It looks accurate
 
Again, unkonwn timeframe, and minimum energy of 4-A is quadrillions of time that of 4-C

After all to achieve 4-A you have to make and energy blast so large that even after spreading out for lightyears it's still strong enough to destory stars.
 
The most powerful Maiar are apparently not supposed to be extremely inferior to the Valar.

It is possible that they should all be rescaled to High 4-C instead though.
 
1. Where is that from?

2. Gandalf the Grey is far from the most powerful Maiar.

3. The potrayals of Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron are WILDLY incompatible with them being tier 4. I mean even Sauron was intimidated into surrendering by a mundane army.
 
Yes, but Tolkien appears to have been extremely inconsistent regarding the power levels of the characters, and the Maiar are not supposed to be astronomically weaker than the Valar.
 
Where is that from?

And was that specified to be in their mortal forms?

And honestly it would be more reasons to take the tier 4 as being an outlier considering the shear number of incidents that contradict it.
 
Timeframe

likely Multi-Galaxy level (Helped build the physical universe)

Maybe, likely 3-B would work better
 
Blademan9999 said:
I STILL don't see the chain of scalings that get from Gandalf the Grey to the Valar.
Click to expand...
I had to hop through at least 7 pages and hit a few dead ends. I'd walk you through it but I forgot. Ask a knowledgeable member.
 
I am kinda wary of scaling normal Maiar to the Valar, due this not being based off a lot at all. That seems shaky as all hell in a verse that doesn't remotely care about something like vs tiers and precise powerscaling.

Someone like Sauron could probably scale to Arien, though. IDK.
 
@Azathoth

Well, I would appreciate your help with figuring out how we should handle this.
 
I really don't even know where to start, but a level where not everyone and their mother is Multi-Solar System level to Multi-Galaxy level based on backwards scaling to twelve of the strongest entities in the setting is probably a good place.
 
I'd also like to point out that it's already acknowledged that many Maiar are on a similar level to the Valar in their unfettered state. This does not make the same true for all physical incarnations.
 
So, looking through the thread, it seems everyone was upgraded because:

  • There is a quote that states some Maiar were "nigh as great as themselves" in comparison to the Valar.
  • Fingolfin inflicted minor damage to a heavily weakened Morgoth.
This seems like something you definitely wouldn't upgrade an entire verse over.
 
Well, it seems like a major mistake has been made then. Help to properly revise the pages would be very appreciated.
 
Some revisions probably could be made to the verse anyway, but at this point I think most of the pages should probably be revised to where they were pre-revision before anything is done.
 
In addition, the Valar probably need to be changed from 4-A to High 4-C.
 
@Azathoth

Okay. Thank you very much for the help.
 
Well thanks, it seems the problem is finally going to solved and now Gandalf will have stats that make sense.
 
Well, I hope so, but I think there were problems before this as well.
 
It depends on when Azathoth finds the time to handle it.
 
They will be.

It's just kind of a pain because I need to revert like half the pages in the verse to a point where they weren't all Tier 4 to Tier 3
 
Okay. No problem. Thank you for the help.
 
Why exactly is Varda 4-A though? Like isn't creating constellations High 4-C? Either way I'd prefer a calc to give the Valar an actual number to sit at honestly.

Also if we're moving on downgrading Sauron then I'd suggest High 6-A for him and the Mair. Why? Well for one the creation of Numenor seems to have been fairly casual work for Osse but the main kicker is Arien. Arien, you see commands the full power of the Sun and is responsible for illuminating Arda.

Why is this significant? Well it's still able to illuminate Arda even after Eru's reshaping it as a sphere in response to Numenor's invading Aman. This is also corroborated by Tolkien's intending the Legendarium as a history of our own world as detailed in the foollowing quote from about 5:40 of thisvideo and other quotes found here. G: I thought that conceivably Midgard might be Middle-earth or have some connection?

T: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean.

G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era.

T: No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes. The idea being that Tolkien's Legendarium is intended as an almost Hyborian Age taking place on our planet. This would lead me to conclude the sun is capable of exerting the same amount of energy it does in reality (90 Petatons if memory serves). Since Arien is a lesser Mair basically all the Mair scale to this (With Sauron scaling significantly above this)
 
This also ignores Tolkien retconning Arda in some editions to have always been a round Earth as detailed below and on the Tolkien Gateway.

In his later life, Tolkien began to have misgivings about the "flat earth" cosmology of the First and Second Age, and made outlines of a plan to create an alternate "round world" version of his legendarium in which the world had always been round. He never completed this revision before his death, and so the "flat earth" stories were published in The Silmarillion. Tolkien's misgivings were primarily astronomical, having to do with the scientific absurdity of a sun that orbits the earth, a moon that glows from its own light, and stars that are points set in a firmament over the earth. How could our world emerge from such a beginning? The Round World version is one of the variants of J.R.R. Tolkien's Legendarium, published in the final volumes of The History of Middle-earth. In this version, the setting of his legendarium is more realistic and less mythological: the Earth was always round, and Arda was the name for the whole solar system instead of just the Earth.

In the Round World version the Sun and the Moon were not the fruit of the Two Trees, but actually preceded their creation. The significance of the Trees and the Silmarils was that they preserved the light of the Sun before it was tainted by Melkor when he ravished Arien.

Similarly, the stars were not created with the Awakening of the Elves, but the occulting clouds were removed to reveal them, and it wasn't Varda who kindled them, since her power was limited to Arda while the stars were set in Eä.

This version emerged in writings from 1958-1960, but it was never developed beyond the stage of drafting and Tolkien didn't continue the revisions. Thus the Flat World version was chosen by Christopher Tolkien for the published The Silmarillion. Tolkien had previously attempted to write a round world version of the Ainulindalë and the Fall of Númenor, but in both cases he returned to the flat-earth model. Beside this, references to the seas being first "bent" after the Fall of Númenor, to the "Sunless Years", and to the trolls of the Twilight, survived in Lord of the Rings.

The Round World version can be deemed by Tolkienists as the definite 'actual' story behind the text; the text of the Quenta Silmarillion then, can be seen as just the legends based on the 'reality', written by the ancient people of Middle-earth. In his last years, Tolkien didn't view his legendarium as having an Elvish origin, but a Mannish one, and thus the legends contained in it could be inaccurate. This can be seen as a commitment to retain the older legends in the context of Mannish transmission, without need to rewrite the tales, as Tolkien had attempted at first. I do admit that this is fairly speculative however and so I invite whatever conclusions we can draw on this.
 
I agree that the Valar should be rescaled to High 4-C.
 
Are you willing and able to perform the changes Azathoth?
 
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