Demise does a thing

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah I know we just finished another Zelda CRT but this one is for a single feat that scales to at most 4 dudes, maybe even just to a single statistic for a whopping whole 1 character, and I've been sitting on this for 4 months.

So we all know Demise used to be tier 4 for creating a dimension with a star, only for it to be removed because the statement was a mistranslation. But then I found another statement that blatantly called the dimension Demises creation... only for it to be mistranslated again but this time the original text might imply, something?

So here's the deal, Fi says this about the dimension Link and Demise fight in:

• "Furthermore, owing to the(our?) present location in the unique space controlled by Demise's magic powers, Skyward can't be used."
• "It's a place that's not in my (Phai's) information storage. It is speculated to be a space controlled by Demise's magic powers. Possibly because of that, Skyward can't be used."

So Fi calls the dimension a space controlled by Demises magic powers. This isn't just him ruling over the realm in the way a king or queen would control a kingdom, it's specifically noting how his magic powers are controlling it and it's why Link can't use Skyward Strikes like he can in the rest of the game. As for what this means? Really that's what this is to figure out. It would 100% be a range feat, it's said the space itself is under his control and Link being in there locks out his skyward strike so at least Demise would have his magic ranged upgraded to stellar (Before anyone brings up him already having that range that shit is horribly outdated from scaling to back when Vaati was 4-A). At a high end? Could put his magical power at straight up star level given that it controls the space itself, but it's not exactly the most concrete thing in the world.

If we go the route of treating it as a 4-C feat (Whether solid or as a possibly) this would only scale to himself, endgame SS Link (Who would need a new key for his endgame self even without the 4-C stuff), Hylia, and true form Ghirahim. In terms of where Demises power sits compared to other characters in the series the only concrete scaling we have is his weakened imprisoned form being much stronger than the Master Sword, so these characters pretty much just sit in their own bubble where they scale to nobody and nobody scales to them (Besides obvious stuff like the complete Triforce and golden goddesses dunking on them because duh). But again, that's only if we think it can applicable to AP which is.

tldr; Demise gets stellar range with magic, maybe 4-C AP but not entirely sure about that one. Personally fine with a possibly rating myself, not entirely sold on a solid 4-C rating. Also I'm going to bed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ultimately speaking the main issue I see is that controlling a space doesn't mean much for AP. You would need to show he can, in totality, alter the space or change it as he sees fit. Just cutting off teleportation and making a storm cloud just isn't enough in in view.

Demise scaling to a nerfed TOTK Ganondorf is (probably) fine though. EDIT: Wrong reading of Imprisoned Form there my bad.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I heard there were plans to indicate Zelda having a UES in the form of an energy source known as Force (Which is what Light Force, Life Force, and Force Gems all translate to in Japanese, and Triforce being stated as the strongest Force in Hyrule). But needs to be a full on AP feat but this could technically mean ED feats can scale to physicals for Zelda. But we only know he controls the space of the realm thus stellar reality warping, and we don't know if he created the realm or if he can move the sun?

Anyway, stellar range looks given, but going to wait for more input regarding AP.

 

[Chariot190]

Can elaborate later but I'd only give him range, controlling a space and creating it are not the same.

Even assuming he controls the whole of the space is a bit generous as it is.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah it just being range is about what I expected, not really a whole lot you can get out of just controlling the space.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Ultimately speaking the main issue I see is that controlling a space doesn't mean much for AP. You would need to show he can, in totality, alter the space or change it as he sees fit. Just cutting off teleportation and making a storm cloud just isn't enough in in view.

Wouldn't casually changing the sky from blue to straight up black with just a handwave count as "altering the space"
And that darkness only disperses after his death it remains throughout the entire boss fight

 

[Chariot190]

Brother, he made a storm. The very fact it's a storm means it didn't extend out into the void, millions of km, where the sun is located simply due to how storms work. The only way it could reach that far to reach the sun, is if the sun was puny as **** and not out in a natural space.

Storms simply can not do that I fear, regardless of his range.

btw if it wasnt said already this would give Demise pocket reality manip & limited power null.

 

[Dust_Collector]

btw if it wasnt said already this would give Demise pocket reality manip & limited power null.

Yeah this would. Think he already has those abilities but he'd finally have something to explain why he has them.

 

[Chariot190]

I heard there were plans to indicate Zelda having a UES in the form of an energy source known as Force (Which is what Light Force, Life Force, and Force Gems all translate to in Japanese, and Triforce being stated as the strongest Force in Hyrule). But needs to be a full on AP feat but this could technically mean ED feats can scale to physicals for Zelda. But we only know he controls the space of the realm thus stellar reality warping, and we don't know if he created the realm or if he can move the sun?

Anyway, stellar range looks given, but going to wait for more input regarding AP.

I plan on cooking something to a degree that'd enable a bit more to scale directly, but it has more do to with just how magic in general functions rather than Force.

Though, it is kinda funny, as far as sustainability feats go and having them scale to stats due to a UES, Vaati might have the most explicit one I've ever seen even though it's probably only 7-c/7-B

 

[Jason_Courne]

Brother, he made a storm. The very fact it's a storm means it didn't extend out into the void, millions of km, where the sun is located simply due to how storms work. The only way it could reach that far to reach the sun, is if the sun was puny as **** and not out in a natural space.

What? He made the sky turn from blue to black, a storm doesn't do that

 

[Chariot190]

What? He made the sky turn from blue to black, a storm doesn't do that

As someone who lives in a place that gets tornadoes often enough and just yesterday it rained quite a bit, they absolutely do without question
Storms in that very game also get portrayed that way as making the sky dark as ****, it's also why it starts lightning

 

[Jason_Courne]

As someone who lives in a place that gets tornadoes often enough and just yesterday it rained quite a bit, they absolutely do without question

Tornadoes and thunderstorms are two very different weathers, and those are for scenarios where the sky is completely blotted out by the weather, but we can clearly still see the clear sky itself turn from blue to straight black

 

[Chariot190]

Also, one thing that makes me iffy on scaling him to it is in every other case a mf makes or sustains something in Zelda, on death the thing in question gets ******.

Like the Moon ceasing to exist in Majora or Vaati's castle above that I linked. In this case the dimension isn't effected, only the storm is on death.

Tornadoes and thunderstorms are two very different weathers, and those are for scenarios where the sky is completely blotted out by the weather, but we can clearly still see the clear sky itself turn from blue to straight black

Do you really think it doesn't storm when we get tornadoes brother? I'm starting to think you've never seen a storm before.

Also yeah, you already linked that lad, and as I just said, that is simply how the game portrays thunderstorms, don't believe me? Tentalus' boss fight is an example off the top of my head, it storms in it and the sky itself, not just the clouds, are black. Unless you wanna make fodder temple boss 3-A for changing the sky itself black when it's obviously a storm, idk what to tell you.
(And why do you think it suddenly starts lightning in demise's boss fight?).

 

[Jason_Courne]

Also, one thing that makes me iffy on scaling him to it is in every other case a mf makes or sustains something in Zelda, on death the thing in question gets ******.

The thing is Demise didn't create it or sustain it, he heavily warped it, and after his death the changes were undone

Also yeah, you already linked that lad, and as I just said, that is simply how the game portrays thunderstorms, don't believe me? Tentalus' boss fight is an example off the top of my head, it storms in it and the sky itself, not just the clouds, are black. Unless you wanna make fodder temple boss 3-A for changing the sky itself black when it's obviously a storm, idk what to tell you.

Those two are completely different examples, Tentalus's storm completely blotted out the sky, whereas we can directly clearly see the blue sky as it becomes black for Demise's feat

 

[Chariot190]

The thing is Demise didn't create it or sustain it, he heavily warped it, and after his death the changes were undone

Creating a storm ain't heavily warping anything, you're taking the absolute largest possible logical leap here because "it got very dark", even though we know it's because he just changed the weather. We don't do that, unless you have statement saying he did so, cool, but I already know you don't.

Those two are completely different examples, Tentalus's storm completely blotted out the sky, whereas we can directly clearly see the blue sky as it becomes black for Demise's feat

Do I need to circle the parts in tentalus' feat where there's no clouds in the way but the sky itself is black? Because I can if I need to. It's basically identical to Demise's shit.

And even if it wasn't that still doesn't change the fact it's due to a lightning storm either way.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Creating a storm ain't heavily warping anything, you're taking the absolute largest possible logical leap here because "it got very dark", even though we know it's because he just changed the weather. We don't do that, unless you have statement saying he did so, cool, but I already know you don't.

The sky... went from BLUE to ******* BLACK, even though we can clearly see the sky itself without any clouds or storms getting in the way it still goes directly from BLUE to BLACK

You're making an entire assumption that Demise's storm was responsible for suddenly CHANGING THE COLOR OF THE SKY

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, because it was.

Dude changed the weather, it was a lightning storm, we know he made a lightning storm simply due to the fact it began lightning, and it began storming. We also know from the skybox change it was a storm due to the thunderclouds that got added (I mean that literally, textures of storm clouds were added, you can check the ripped textures if you want, they're readily available).

We also know, from multiple other examples, that storms in this game outright make the sky pitch black, not the clouds mind you, but the sky itself. As pointed out, Tentalus, made a storm, and not the clouds which were a dark grey, but the blue sky itself became pitch black, something you can see with ease given the clouds aren't even blotting out the sky and there's huge gaps between them.

By your logic, Demise spontaneously creating a storm, something we know is a storm, and effectively every addition and change corroborates that confirmation as being a lightning storm, is actually him changing THE WHOLE REALM to look black for the **** of it (while also creating a storm because he just do), even though we know the heavily stylized anime game simply portrays storms as having a pitch black sky. And let's not even get into other games, Vaati and Ganon 3-A for making a black sky too? Obviously not.(and bruh, they have a LOT of examples of that).

And even then, the best you'd be able to argue here is he changed the atmosphere to black given, ya know, space be black and nothing indicates it extended out to space. And it wouldn't even grant a tier because he didn't effect the sun, the entire reason why a pocket realm feat gives low 4-C, but just empty space which aligns with the fact we're already giving him big dick range for having control over it.

 

[Chariot190]

And I mean that btw, we don't give AP for funny color. See Toppo's feat from DBS, we only use it because him doing that is something the 3 gods fighting failed to do, not because he simply changed the color, there was talks of it being just range and hax at first.

 

[Jason_Courne]

In Tentalus's storm feat, we see the entire sky is covered with storm clouds, even upto the horizon, you are mistaking simply DARK CLOUDS for changing the ENTIRE SKY BLACK, so you are already using a bad example

Whereas in Demise's feat we plainly see the OPEN sky change from blue to pitch black, which is supported by him repeatedly being stated to have control over the dimension

 

[Chariot190]

Please don't make me have to screenshot blatantly obvious cloudless sky sections and draw big red circles around it.
Because it's at the point I'm obviously going to have to spoonfeed you something anyone can see.

Whereas in Demise's feat we plainly see the OPEN sky change from blue to pitch black, which is supported by him repeatedly being stated to have control over the dimension

Damn, almost like every other storm feat in the game (and it isn't even the open sky, there's clouds either way, just gaps between them, which, lol and behold, like other storm feats, not just from SS, but numerous Zelda games).

You're also ignoring how in Demise's feat the sky box gets a bunch of clouds added to it, storm clouds mind you. And this isn't, again, an assumption, all this stuff is readily available and ripped from the files already.

Like lad, argue you all you want, we know he made a lightning storm.
Maybe if he didn't make a storm and thus we have a readily available explanation that aligns with a bunch of other evidence for the color shift, you'd have a point (except not really because we don't give AP for this type of shit at all to begin with and we're already giving him range for it, he didn't effect the sun aka the only reason this would be anything to begin with, there's no proof it effected the whole dimension especially given that dimension has a space due to the sun's existence, I could go on).

 

[Jason_Courne]

Please don't make me have to screenshot blatantly obvious cloudless sky sections and draw big red circles around it.
Because it's at the point I'm obviously going to have to spoonfeed you something anyone can see.

They aren't "cloudless", that's just how a ******* thunderstorm looks some clouds are darker than others

You're also ignoring how in Demise's feat the sky box gets a bunch of clouds added to it, storm clouds mind you. And this isn't, again, an assumption, all this stuff is readily available and ripped from the files already.

Yet we can clearly see the sky directly in the scene turn black, with NO CLOUDS COVERING IT

Maybe if he didn't make a storm and thus we have a readily available explanation that aligns with a bunch of other evidence for the color shift, you'd have a point (except not really because we don't give AP for this type of shit at all to begin with and we're already giving him range for it, he didn't effect the sun aka the only reason this would be anything to begin with, there's no proof it effected the whole dimension especially given that dimension has a space due to the sun's existence, I could go on).

Lightning storms don't just change the color of the sky, they'll blot out the sun yes, but they don't cause the color blue to become black

 

[Chariot190]

They aren't "cloudless", that's just how a ******* thunderstorm looks some clouds are darker than others

Except no? You can zoom in with the bow even, there's some patches of sky that are straight up cloudless, not dark clouds, straight up pitch black nothing (and again, this isn't me presuming, we, again, have access to all the skyboxes and textures ripped from the game). Jesus Christ I'm really going to have to spoonfeed you this aren't I? Sigh, I guess I know what I'm doing when I get home.

Yet we can clearly see the sky directly in the scene turn black, with NO CLOUDS COVERING IT

Just like a bunch of storms.
And we know he made a storm, ergo, it's dark because that's just how the game depicts storms.

Lightning storms don't just change the color of the sky, they'll blot out the sun yes, but they don't cause the color blue to become black

Except in Skyward Sword, the heavily stylized game with a water color aesthetic that depicts things in a stylized manner not 1:1 with reality not withstanding even irl bad storms can make the sky itself look black simply due to how light refracts between clouds but whatever

Youve also failed to actually tackle the multitude of other points, all you've said is "he made it all black" ignoring the confirmed storm he made, and then saying "nah dude, that isn't cloudless sky it's just pitch black clouds instead" for Tentalus, while ignoring how this isn't AP either way, didn't effect the sun, we don't know if it covered the whole realm, space do be a thing, the fact by this logic every dark sky feat is 3-A, how in Demise's very feat you keep quoting we know storm clouds were generated simultaneously and the sky box itself changed to reflect (pretty sure this shit is on no clip even, when the sky turns black, the game spawns in storm clouds), etc.

No offense, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (you're legit arguing for a like a quintillion times power jump because he made sky black and ignoring all possible other explanations bro), prove he effected the whole realm doing this, as well as the sun, because funny color change ain't shit by itself even if that was what happened (it ain't but regardless). And then try and justify the spontaneous storm effects and why demise would randomly make the sky black for the **** of it instead of the storm he actively had reason to make and ended up using.

Do that for now given I won't be home for a bit to draw out and crop out screencaps of a boss fight anyone can watch and see for themselves.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Except no? You can zoom in with the bow even, there's some patches of sky that are straight up cloudless, not dark clouds, straight up pitch black nothing (and again, this isn't me presuming, we, again, have access to all the skyboxes and textures ripped from the game). Jesus Christ I'm really going to have to spoonfeed you this aren't I? Sigh, I guess I know what I'm doing when I get home.

Then those are just the games rendering ******* up, in the cutscene we clearly see nothing but storm clouds

Just like a bunch of storms.
And we know he made a storm, ergo, it's dark because that's just how the game depicts storms.

Except that's not it, because Tentalu's storm was meant to cover the ENTIRE HORIZON

Except in Skyward Sword, the heavily stylized game with a water color aesthetic that depicts things in a stylized manner not 1:1 with reality not withstanding even irl bad storms can make the sky itself look black simply due to how light refracts between clouds but whatever

YES LIGHT REFRACTS ON CLOUDS, IF ONLY WE HAD A CLEAR SHOT THAT DIDNT HAVE THE SKY COVERED BY CLOUDS
OH WAIT, WE DO

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Jason is spittin some fact rn ngl

 

[Chariot190]

Then those are just the games rendering ******* up, in the cutscene we clearly see nothing but storm clouds

You obviously haven't looked close enough, for Tentalus there's 3 layers of storm clouds, yes some are darker than others, but, behind them is a pitch black sky box. Before you start throwing claims "uh it's just the game ******* up rendering", which it objectively isn't as we KNOW what it's meant to be, because again, we have ALL THIS shit ripped directly from the game's files. Like hot damn dude.

Except that's not it, because Tentalu's storm was meant to cover the ENTIRE HORIZON

And it does, to bad we also see that the skybox is black, ergo your demise argument is bad, not much more to say.

YES LIGHT REFRACTS ON CLOUDS, IF ONLY WE HAD A CLEAR SHOT THAT DIDNT HAVE THE SKY COVERED BY CLOUDS
OH WAIT, WE DO

You're right, we do, and it's pitch black in Tentalus as well

Jason is spittin some fact rn ngl

Jason is straight-up wrong and so are you I guess.

 

[Chariot190]

Except actually, all that happens in Tentalus fight is the white clouds of the skybox become dark gray, two layers of storm clouds get added, and the light blue part becomes black.
A storm, with the sky portrayed as black, kinda like how Demise makes a lightning storm, something we know is what he did and the sky becomes black at the same time. Wow who would've thought?

And yet here we are arguing if a storm is actually reality warping a whole realm for the sake of funny big number (which it wouldn't get anyway) when there's **** all for evidence to even being to humor such an argument.

 

[Jason_Courne]

You obviously haven't looked close enough, for Tentalus there's 3 layers of storm clouds, yes some are darker than others, but, behind them is a pitch black sky box. Before you start throwing claims "uh it's just the game ******* up rendering", which it objectively isn't as we KNOW what it's meant to be, because again, we have ALL THIS shit ripped directly from the game's files. Like hot damn dude.

Tentalus's storm completely covers the area and the skybox being black is just to give off the visuals of a storm

A storm, with the sky portrayed as black, kinda like how Demise makes a lightning storm, something we know is what he did and the sky becomes black at the same time. Wow who would've thought?

It's not even a ******* storm, it's just dark clouds, the storm only comes into existence after the second phase of his boss fight
So this is automatically false equivalence

 

[Chariot190]

Tentalus's storm completely covers the area and the skybox being black is just to give off the visuals of a storm

That is literally not true though, Tentalus' storm covers the area, yeah, and so does Demise's, because once again, you're kind of dismissing the fact an absolute fuckton of storm clouds get spawned in for Demise's too, and even the arena for Demise' changes to reflect that by having storm cloud skybox occur, you probably can't tell, that well in-game, but you can easily see the trick deployed when looking at the full skybox for Demise's dimension. Yet in both storms you can see the actual blue skybox now black, thus, funny storm having black sky is just par for the course.
The skybox turns black in both, both generate storms at the same time. You're cherry picking Demise's to say his basically doesn't count.

Proceeding to jump to "oh, Demise must have turned the WHOLE dimension black for funsies lol" for the sake of funny upgrade, not withstanding it wouldn't give shit to begin with and the hilarious lack of evidence to even reach that conclusion either way, especially as we're already counting this as just range, as absolutely asinine.

It's not even a ******* storm, it's just dark clouds, the storm only comes into existence after the second phase of his boss fight
So this is automatically false equivalence

Oh, but that's not true, it starts lightning in phase 2 (it actually starts to do so before he even gets back up and does anything), but the shit is already spawned in brother.

It'd be a false equivalence if the storm clouds weren't already there and if the arena changed at all when it began lightning, but it didn't, aka that shit happened when he first waved his arm. And do me a favor and actually explain why this shit would be tier 4 anyway, instead of just range, and prove it affected the whole dimension as well, you keep ignoring half the points made against this and keep going "nah dude he turned sky black".

 

[Jason_Courne]

That is literally not true though, Tentalus' storm covers the area, yeah, and so does Demise's, because once again, you're kind of dismissing the fact an absolute fuckton of storm clouds get spawned in for Demise's too, and even the arena for Demise' changes to reflect that by having storm cloud skybox occur, you probably can't tell, that well in-game, but you can easily see the trick deployed when looking at the full skybox for Demise's dimension. Yet in both storms you can see the actual blue skybox now black, thus, funny storm having black sky is just par for the course.
The skybox turns black in both, both generate storms at the same time. You're cherry picking Demise's to say his basically doesn't count.

The difference is

1. Tentalus's feat is meant to cover the entire area, and the black skybox is meant to cover up any gaps
2. We get a clear ass view of the dimension changing colors without any clouds in the way

Also Demise's feat aint a storm though, in phase 2 it's a storm, but in phase 1 it isn't

 

[Chariot190]

There is no dfference, you're just trying to say there is for god knows what reason.

Tentalus' feat "is meant to", no, not an argument, ignoring the fact you don't know what they actually intended but tough luck given we can see the actual sky beyond the clouds as there are gaps, and it's pitch black just like Demise. It could cover 99% of the sky (it doesn't, there's actually some pretty damn massive gaps in the clouds if you look around, especially with zoom in, doesn't help the 3rd layer of clouds is a transparent layer which is the only reason they look as dark to begin with) arguing the clouds just blot out everything doesn't work with gaps that large), it still doesn't change the fact the sky itself is pitch black, what, is Tentalus 3-A for changing the sky to black too now? Oh what about Vaati's storm feats too? Sky turns pitch black there too.

Demise's feat was always a storm, just because it didn't start raining or lightning till phase 2 doesn't change the fact the storm clouds had already manifested and were there the whole time. Even irl clouds don't immediately start spewing shit, it ain't instant but that's just corroboration (especially because he doesn't even do anything, the first lightning strike happens before he even gets back up after Link knocks him down), it doesn't change the fact they were there even in phase 1 and nothing changed.

Now stop wasting my time and actually explain why this shit would extend to the whole dimension to begin with (You think it should isn't an argument, need a statement or at least heavy implication) and why it'd be AP and not range even if it did, and hell, why would it even be "warping" the dimension too instead of say, light manip? Even once you randomly decide to ignore the fact he just made a storm by dismissing even the fact we get storm clouds as early as phase 1, you still need to prove a bunch of other shit.

 

[Jason_Courne]

There is no dfference, you're just trying to say there is for god knows what reason.

Considering one is an actual storm that covers nearly the entire ******* area where the black box is meant to hide behind the storm and only provide a backdrop
Whereas the other is just some ****** clouds

Even irl clouds don't immediately start spewing shit

Yeah IRL clouds don't turn black when some dude waves his hand or just suddenly become thunderstorms cuz some guy got his ass kicked

Now stop wasting my time and actually explain why this shit would extend to the whole dimension to begin with (You think it should isn't an argument, need a statement or at least heavy implication) and why it'd be AP and not range even if it did, and hell, why would it even be "warping" the dimension too instead of say, light manip? Even once you randomly decide to ignore the fact he just made a storm by dismissing even the fact we get storm clouds as early as phase 1, you still need to prove a bunch of other shit.

Stop wasting MY time by comparing some random ass clouds to a ******* thunderstorm

1. Demise has control over the entire dimension, this is repeatedly stated both in game and by the official verse encyclopedias
2. With a casual wave of the hand he causes the entire dimension to grow dark

It's literally point A and point B

 

[Chariot190]

Considering one is an actual storm that covers nearly the entire ******* area where the black box is meant to hide behind the storm and only provide a backdrop
Whereas the other is just some ****** clouds

Hide behind? Bruh there's huge gaps where you can see that shit clear as day, some gaps legit hundreds of meters at points given the clouds move, you've played the game right? You should know this. This argument is bad, it's just you cherry-picking and coping with why one storm is allowed to have a blatant black sky box, but this other one is actually 4-C reality warping of a whole dimension (while ignoring the metric fuckton of blatant and demonstrable evidence against that being the case).

Yeah IRL clouds don't turn black when some dude waves his hand or just suddenly become thunderstorms cuz some guy got his ass kicked

You're right, we should can all zelda storm feats because clouds turning a different color or becoming storm clouds aint like irl so they obviously can't be compared am I right? It's just magic lol, why would we treat them as functioning the same?
Be real now.

Stop wasting MY time by comparing some random ass clouds to a ******* thunderstorm

1. Demise has control over the entire dimension, this is repeatedly stated both in game and by the official verse encyclopedias
2. With a casual wave of the hand he causes the entire dimension to grow dark

It's literally point A and point B

Lmao, so you don't have any actual evidence?

You're just saying "well he controls the dimension so he MUST have turned the WHOLE thing black". not how it works, for all we know that could be light manip, or a dozen other things, it could be localized too, why does it need to cover the whole dimension? It could just be the area we see affected (like how we treat literally every other feat, let alone verse, like this). We need proof it affected the whole dimension, your need for big number sure as **** ain't it chief.

What, did the storm cover the whole dimension too because he controls the dimension so by that logic EVERYTHING he does needs to affect the whole of it without any proof? Even out into space? **** no, this argument is awful, no offense but you gotta actually prove that shit, the burden of proof is on you to prove funny black skybox affected the whole dimension. And once you do, if you even can, we'll be right back at the start because we're already giving him big dick range for having control over the dimension so nothing was actually accomplished

Hell, ignoring the fact it's literally funny storm, I could just as easily argue it's the same blackout stuff Ganon does at points, given literal reincarnation with a lot of shared powers, hell if anything that has more grounds to be the case as we're never once told this feat was due to his control over the dimension.

Your whole argument is literally a leap in logic my dude.
And you STILL haven't given any evidence, let alone why it'd be tier 4.

 

[Nierre]

I heard there were plans to indicate Zelda having a UES in the form of an energy source known as Force (Which is what Light Force, Life Force, and Force Gems all translate to in Japanese, and Triforce being stated as the strongest Force in Hyrule). But needs to be a full on AP feat but this could technically mean ED feats can scale to physicals for Zelda. But we only know he controls the space of the realm thus stellar reality warping, and we don't know if he created the realm or if he can move the sun?

Anyway, stellar range looks given, but going to wait for more input regarding AP.

Yeah there definitely needs to be a UES for Zelda. I was actually thinking about this a few months ago when I finished Spirit Tracks (the Force Gems reminded me of the Gratitude Crystals in Skyward Sword)

 

[Chariot190]

There's definitely a UES for Zelda when it comes to magic, for the most part anyway. Doesn't extend to physicals tho but in every case I can think of, the dudes scale physically anyway because Link's durability ends up scaling to the magic, and they can hurt him physically
I was hoping to cook something up with Walt and Dean for this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's definitely a UES for Zelda when it comes to magic, for the most part anyway. Doesn't extend to physicals tho but in every case I can think of, the dudes scale physically anyway because Link's durability ends up scaling to the magic, and they can hurt him physically
I was hoping to cook something up with Walt and Dean for this.

So in other words, the system itself is a Non-Physical Energy System based on the system itself. But happens to scale to physical durability via Link tanking attacks and striking strength via trading blows similar to how FE scaling is handled. Sounds about right.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Hide behind? Bruh there's huge gaps where you can see that shit clear as day, some gaps legit hundreds of meters at points given the clouds move, you've played the game right? You should know this. This argument is bad, it's just you cherry-picking and coping with why one storm is allowed to have a blatant black sky box, but this other one is actually 4-C reality warping of a whole dimension (while ignoring the metric fuckton of blatant and demonstrable evidence against that being the case).

It's not cherry picking because one is an actual storm whereas the other is just some dark clouds
One has nearly the entire area covered by a storm whereas we are given a clear ass view of the sky

You're right, we should can all zelda storm feats because clouds turning a different color or becoming storm clouds aint like irl so they obviously can't be compared am I right? It's just magic lol, why would we treat them as functioning the same?

Don't act like you weren't the first person to bring this shit up, this is YOUR logic

You're just saying "well he controls the dimension so he MUST have turned the WHOLE thing black". not how it works, for all we know that could be light manip, or a dozen other things, it could be localized too, why does it need to cover the whole dimension? It could just be the area we see affected (like how we treat literally every other feat, let alone verse, like this). We need proof it affected the whole dimension, your need for big number sure as **** ain't it chief.

Sun makes sky blue, Demise makes sky black

 

[Chariot190]

It's not cherry picking because one is an actual storm whereas the other is just some dark clouds

Why do you keep saying that as if it's going to change it's literally a storm. This is actual copium, they're storm clouds, and rain and lightning start spitting shortly before phase 2. Just because they don't instantly doesn't mean it isn't a storm.

One has nearly the entire area covered by a storm whereas we are given a clear ass view of the sky

Blatantly wrong, who do you think you're fooling here? When giant huge chunks of sky lack clouds, you can't pull the "oh well, it's MOSTLY covered so it's different", anybody with functioning eyes can tell you that the actual skybox is visible at points (especially if you just like, look up), it's not at all subtle, and it's pitch black too, hell even if only 1% of it was visible through the gaps in the cloud layers, it'd still make the foundation of your argument bunk, if any of the light blue sky became pitch black your argument holds no water.
A clear ass view of the sky? Yeah, like in both.

Don't act like you weren't the first person to bring this shit up, this is YOUR logic

It's actually your logic bruh, it's you who's complaining because the storm clouds (that's what they are, this isn't up for debate, they're the exact same as every other storm cloud in game, the sky box in demise's boss arena literally becomes stormy as you can blatantly see in the noclip I sent you, and it begins raining and lightning, from said very clouds, even though nothing was added or changed between that point and when he waved his hand to make funny black sky).

And because of that, your argument is "well it's not like irl so-", ok by that logic let's just not use any storm feat because who's to say if the energy is the same as irl as well? This is a non-argument.

Sun makes sky blue, Demise makes sky black

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
My brother in christ, do you not know how an atmosphere works?
Also lmao ok where's that stated? And once again, where's the evidence?

Literally, all you've done is go "sky went black so whole realm became black so it's 4-C", that's it, needless to say that's nothing.
I don't think I have to explain what the burden of proof is or that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you've given a grand total of zilch. instead of dodging every single claim or question or even alternative, actually prove it.
And no, him controlling the dimension doesn't mean it affected the whole of it unless we have actual evidence to say it did in that instance because by that logic even the storm would have affected the whole dimension based on the exact same reasoning you gave prior (that simply being "well he controls the dimension"), and needless to say if the storm did do that, then I'm going to have to question the validity of that dimension even having a functioning space and realistic sun because a storm sure as hell ain't going out into space.

This is an actual waste of time, if you can't 1. Prove he affected the whole dimension in that instance. 2. That funny color is 4-C (it isnt, feats like this aren't uncommon, even dbz has feats like this that get nothing but lukewarm hax). 3. It isn't just range (something we're already giving him).
Then yes, waste of time. (Not withstanding it's just a storm but whatever).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wouldn't casually changing the sky from blue to straight up black with just a handwave count as "altering the space"

If it was like, a conceptually change of color it could (for example, Joker destroying the color white). But contextually, since Phase 2 involves a thunderstorm and the realm returns to a normal clear sky after Demise is defeated, it's more likely that he conjured a storm or something to that effect. Which wouldn't require Tier 4 levels of energy, just enough energy to conjure a thunderstorm over a large flat space.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Why do you keep saying that as if it's going to change it's literally a storm. This is actual copium, they're storm clouds, and rain and lightning start spitting shortly before phase 2. Just because they don't instantly doesn't mean it isn't a storm.

Most common definition of a storm

A storm is any disturbed state of the natural environment or the atmosphere of an astronomical body. It may be marked by significant disruptions to normal conditions such as strong wind, tornadoes, hail, thunder and lightning (a thunderstorm), heavy precipitation (snowstorm, rainstorm), heavy freezing rain (ice storm), strong winds (tropical cyclone, windstorm), wind transporting some substance through the atmosphere such as in a dust storm, among other forms of severe weather. - Wikipedia

There were no strong winds, precipitation, lightning, or temperatures, they were just clouds


Not to mention storm clouds bunch together whereas the clouds in Demise's dimension are spread apart over a large area with many noticable gaps

 

[Chariot190]

As if that changes literally anything I said holy shit.

This is some Grade A denial.