Possible 4-A Mori Jin upgrade

[BreezeHM]

Yes I do

You only have the total number. Not the statement for their durability. I don’t know how many times setto and I have to tell you this isn’t allowed. Do I have to show you two admins directly saying that this isn’t allowed for you to get it?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Whataboutism.
Tackle the concerns regardless of whata going on in Other verse and if you feel they dont fit that make yourself some crt

Two wrongs doesn't make a right

 

[DavidTPPM]

You only have the total number. Not the statement for their durability.

So? I have the calc for their durability (same way the calcs I posted have the calc for the speed feats) and I get everything else from direct on screen showings and statements, which Setto said is allowed. There's literally no calc stacking and I even gave you examples on how the essentialy the same thing was accepted several times.

I don’t know how many times setto and I have to tell you this isn’t allowed. Do I have to show you two admins directly saying that this isn’t allowed for you to get it?

You're telling me calc stacking isn't allowed but not telling me how this is calc stacking. I even gave you several examples on when feats that can be calced were used without being calced because they were so direct or had a statement (or both) and you basically just went "nuh uh".

Dude I'll say it for the last time and if you still can't give an actual argument or show me where the calc stacking is I just won't reply to you because this is just pointless.

The Yhwach feat is basically "Yhwach traveled the distance between 2 realms X times faster than Ichigo who can move at least at 4,4e5 meters per second"

This feat is "Mori is at least 2 quintillion times stronger than Satan who's has X durability".

Both times the only unknown variable that needs a calc is X and everything else is directly shown and stated. In both cases you simply multiply a known value with a calced value. If you can't show me where the second calc is then it can't be calc stacking. Simple as that

 

[DavidTPPM]

Whataboutism.
Tackle the concerns regardless of whata going on in Other verse and if you feel they dont fit that make yourself some crt

Two wrongs doesn't make a right

I'm not using the examples to say 2 wrongs make a right. I'm using them because obviously a huge super popular verse like Bleach shouldn't have all their rel+ and above calcs be calc stacking and because it's highly unlikely something that goes against the rules gets accepted 4x. I'm using it to point out that this is within the rules (which Setto confirmed).

 

[BreezeHM]

So? I have the calc for their durability (same way the calcs I posted have the calc for the speed feats) and I get everything else from direct on screen showings and statements, which Setto said is allowed. There's literally no calc stacking and I even gave you examples on how the essentialy the same thing was accepted several times.

You're telling me calc stacking isn't allowed but not telling me how this is calc stacking. I even gave you several examples on when feats that can be calced were used without being calced because they were so direct or had a statement (or both) and you basically just went "nuh uh".

I've told you how it's calc stacking in every post. You're just looking at it and saying it isn't stacking. I told you EXACTLY how what you're doing is wrong but sure i'll break down every single calculation you posted and how they're not stacking calculations.

Resurreccion Hikone's Speed - 0.72c (Relativistic+)
Grimjow is stated to move like Cloud-To Ground Lightning. Direct statement for lightning speed. That very same lightning speed was seen as standing still by Hikone. There's no calc-stacking, because there was never a calculation.
Yhwach's Darkness Speed - 4.89c (FTL)
Using distances is fine, because thats not something that can be changed and doesn't provide inaccurate results. Says so on the calc-stacking page itself.
Mimihagi's Speed - 4.89c (FTL)
Again using distance
Auswahlen Speed - 19.55c (FTL+)
Distance Calculation again

Now what do all these calculations have in common? Either direct statement and feat or a distance calculation that is allowed. Do you have any of those? No. The only thing you have is a 250,000x multiplier. There is no statement or direct feat that would give Satan's clones Star level durability. You are using a calculation to scale their durability to star level. Do you see how this is calc stacking?

Dude I'll say it for the last time and if you still can't give an actual argument or show me where the calc stacking is I just won't reply to you because this is just pointless.

I've told you several times, you just choose to ignore it.

The Yhwach feat is basically "Yhwach traveled the distance between 2 realms X times faster than Ichigo who can move at least at 4,4e5 meters per second"

Did you even read the blog? Yhwach's Auswahlen travelled the distance from the realm and back, which is where the 2x distance comes from.

This feat is "Mori is at least 2 quintillion times stronger than Satan who's has X durability".

Both times the only unknown variable that needs a calc is X and everything else is directly shown and stated. In both cases you simply multiply a known value with a calced value. If you can't show me where the second calc is then it can't be calc stacking. Simple as that

What needs a calc in Yhwach was the distance between Reiokyu and Seireitei, which is fine to use as said on the calc stacking page. Durability and Attack Potency cannot be used. Only In Yhwach case is multiplying by 2 acceptable because like I said, it travelled the distance twice. Stop doing false equivalences.

To break it down further for you so you see the calc stacking, lets examine the star level feat. The Star level feat comes from pushing Jupiter back into orbit by a calculation. You're saying that pushing Jupiter is a blatant star level feat, what is your basis for that? How can you tell that pushing Jupiter into orbit produces 5.693e41 J? I can tell you if distance pushed or the velocity was lower, it wouldn't be a star level feat. Not only that, a timeframe needs to be assumed. No matter what it's something that requires a calculation.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Grimjow is stated to move like Cloud-To Ground Lightning. Direct statement for lightning speed. That very same lightning speed was seen as standing still by Hikone. There's no calc-stacking, because there was never a calculation.

And Mori is stated to have destroyed over 2 quintillion clones. There is no calc stacking because there's no calculation.

Using distances is fine, because thats not something that can be changed and doesn't provide inaccurate results. Says so on the calc-stacking page itself.

The distance only works for finding out the difference between Ichigos speed and Yhwachs speed. Same way the clones only work to find out the difference between Moris AP and Satans durability. Same thing. So yh it works, I agree.

Now what do all these calculations have in common? Either direct statement and feat or a distance calculation that is allowed. Do you have any of those? No.

Yes I literally do. Statement and feat = the amount of clones and Mori destroying them. The only calc in the whole argument is the 4-C feat same way the only calc in the Yhwach speed feats are Yhwach actually traveling the distance. It's literally the same thing but with AP instead of speed.

The only thing you have is a 250,000x multiplier. There is no statement or direct feat that would give Satan's clones Star level durability. You are using a calculation to scale their durability to star level. Do you see how this is calc stacking?

No, what I have is a number of clones that got destroyed and Mori destroying them. Same way Satans durability needs to be calced, Yhwach traveling the distance had to be calced. That's only one calc so it's not calc stacking.
Do you see how you literally can't provide a 2nd calc to call this calc stacking?

Did you even read the blog? Yhwach's Auswahlen travelled the distance from the realm and back, which is where the 2x distance comes from.

? I never said about having any issues with it being so 2x the distance? The connection I'm drawing is that Auswahlen traveling the distance had to be calced same way Satans durability had to, but that there are no other calcs in neither of the arguments. So neither of them are calc stacking as they only use one calc.

What needs a calc in Yhwach was the distance between Reiokyu and Seireitei, which is fine to use as said on the calc stacking page. Durability and Attack Potency cannot be used. Only In Yhwach case is multiplying by 2 acceptable because like I said, it travelled the distance twice. Stop doing false equivalences.

Yes same way the only thing that needs to be calced in my post is Satans durability. You literally don't need to calc anything else. I literally asked you to show me what else needs to be calced and you couldn't. So it's not calc stacking.

To break it down further for you so you see the calc stacking, lets examine the star level feat. The Star level feat comes from pushing Jupiter back into orbit by a calculation. You're saying that pushing Jupiter is a blatant star level feat, what is your basis for that?

I'm not? Stop strawmanning me lmao. I'm saying Mori completely destroying 2 quintillion Satan clones is a direct feat with a direct statement. The jupiter feat needs to be calced and is the ONLY thing in the argument that needs a calc.

I can tell you if distance pushed or the velocity was lower, it wouldn't be a star level feat. Not only that, a timeframe needs to be assumed. No matter what it's something that requires a calculation.

Yes, the only thing that needs a calc in this whole argument. If it's calc stacking stop spamming and actually show the 2nd calc.

You can't. Because there's no calc stacking.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Hmm Alternatively, if we were to pretend there's calc stacking, we could just downplay Satan to 2.022E+36J for throwing Jupiter blatantly at MFTL+ speeds (in blink of an eye blitzed everyone on earth) which according to the wiki rules shouldn't need a calc (and isn't applicable due to ftl KE rules) and would scale him to the GBE of the planet. This would get the feat of destroying the clones to 4.0634127e+54J which is still just below 4-A (4-B) but this would upscale the value that ragnarok characters scale to and upscale anyone who scales to jeabongchim post ragnarok Satan to 1.0158532e+60J which is 4-A.

This would be funny af because it contradicts Satans profile and 4-C feats, but now there's exactly 0 calcs in the argument and no reason to not accept it.
Maybe a "At least 4-B, likely up to 4-A" or some goofyness like that.

 

[BreezeHM]

And Mori is stated to have destroyed over 2 quintillion clones. There is no calc stacking because there's no calculation.

Attack Potency is being stacked.

The distance only works for finding out the difference between Ichigos speed and Yhwachs speed. Same way the clones only work to find out the difference between Moris AP and Satans durability. Same thing. So yh it works, I agree.

No it doesn't. Because you're multiplying the amount of clones by the durability which was from a calculation. I don't know why you think Mori's energy is outputting quintillion times more to kill a 4-C character. Didn't I tell you to look at the Attack Potency page?

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well.

Also, kindly remember that Attack Potency is the measure of Destructive Capacity of an attack, and as such, is measured via its energy damage equivalent. Hence, characters that destroy mountains or islands are not automatically mountain or island level, especially if they are small. The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack.

Mori's kick is 250,000x what he scaled to. He did not output 4 quintillion times the energy.
Also if you want direct admin statements

Pretty sure we can't just add the durability of characters together for when they're hit by an attack like this.

A large Caliber round punching through two sheets of metal doesn't mean it has twice the energy as the metal's durability, just that it had enough energy to punch through both without losing a significant amount of energy.

Yes I literally do. Statement and feat = the amount of clones and Mori destroying them. The only calc in the whole argument is the 4-C feat same way the only calc in the Yhwach speed feats are Yhwach actually traveling the distance. It's literally the same thing but with AP instead of speed.

For the last time, the durability comes from a calculation that isn't allowed to be stacked. Do my words go through one ear and out the other?

No, what I have is a number of clones that got destroyed and Mori destroying them. Same way Satans durability needs to be calced, Yhwach traveling the distance had to be calced. That's only one calc so it's not calc stacking.
Do you see how you literally can't provide a 2nd calc to call this calc stacking?

I said before, what you're doing is range, and to do what you're doing you would need a statement of durability, hence the calc stacking.

? I never said about having any issues with it being so 2x the distance? The connection I'm drawing is that Auswahlen traveling the distance had to be calced same way Satans durability had to, but that there are no other calcs in neither of the arguments. So neither of them are calc stacking as they only use one calc.

Refer to the reply above this one.

Yes same way the only thing that needs to be calced in my post is Satans durability. You literally don't need to calc anything else. I literally asked you to show me what else needs to be calced and you couldn't. So it's not calc stacking.

Refer to the same reply.

I'm not? Stop strawmanning me lmao. I'm saying Mori completely destroying 2 quintillion Satan clones is a direct feat with a direct statement. The jupiter feat needs to be calced and is the ONLY thing in the argument that needs a calc.

Tired of repeating myself.

Yes, the only thing that needs a calc in this whole argument. If it's calc stacking stop spamming and actually show the 2nd calc.

You can't. Because there's no calc stacking.

Like @SeijiSetto, a literal Calculation Group Member and I told you its stacking. But you say there's no stacking. This my last reply to you since you just want to ignore site standards to fit your own agenda.

 

[Dereck03]

Main counterargument, the clone feat is only a range feat, you don't necessarily need higher amounts of energy to affect X amount if you have enough range and control over the area, mori has enough range to affect and destroy all of Satan's clones.

This falls explicitly into an example I mentioned some time ago.

This seems to be more related to the scope or range of the person affecting the others, as it can easily affect the million or 1 person but the potency will remain the same, more elaboration would be needed.

And although the examples shown are not the same, the premise is. No greater potency of energy can be determined here by the evidence shown and by default feat is a range feat.

And I prefer not to get into the rest about Calc stacking.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Attack Potency is being stacked.

But no calcs so it's not calc stacking and should be allowed.

No it doesn't. Because you're multiplying the amount of clones by the durability which was from a calculation. I don't know why you think Mori's energy is outputting quintillion times more to kill a 4-C character. Didn't I tell you to look at the Attack Potency page?

So the only calc is the jupiter calc and therefore it's not calc stacking .

Mori's kick is 250,000x what he scaled to. He did not output 2 quintillion times the energy.
Also if you want direct admin statements

He clearly did since he one shotted 2 quintillion clones in a single kick lmao. That's just physics. Breaking 2 rocks in one hit takes at least 2x the amount of energy necessary to destroy 1 rock. And i don't care what the admin (in a different thread nonetheless) said he it's clearly wrong. Destroying 2 objects requires at least 2x the amount of energy necessary to destroy one of them, that's basic physics.

For the last time, the durability comes from a calculation that isn't allowed to be stacked. Do my words go through one ear and out the other?

Yes and that's the only calc so there is no calc stacking. How many more times do I have to say "it's not calc stacking if you can't show me a 2nd calc"?

I said before, what you're doing is range, and to do what you're doing you would need a statement of durability, hence the calc stacking.

That's just wrong lmao. It's both range and power. You can't destroy 2 quintillion objects without having the power necessary to destroy 2 quintillion objects lmfao. And stop calling it calc stacking unless you actually show me a second calc because so far I've asked you to do so like 5x and you still couldn't.

Like @SeijiSetto, a literal Calculation Group Member and I told you its stacking. But you say there's no stacking. This my last reply to you since you just want to ignore site standards to fit your own agenda.

Appeal to authority + you can't show me a second calc. If you dip without even proving there's a 2nd calc then you just lost the debate.
Hell appealing to authority when said authority didn't even give their thoughts after my last reply to them is just funny because you don't even know if they actually agree.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Main counterargument, the clone feat is only a range feat, you don't necessarily need higher amounts of energy to affect X amount if you have enough range and control over the area, mori has enough range to affect and destroy all of Satan's clones.

This falls explicitly into an example I mentioned some time ago.

And although the examples shown are not the same, the premise is. No greater potency of energy can be determined here by the evidence shown and by default feat is a range feat.

Can you explain to me how does that work? Because it doesn't make even remotely any sense.

How can someone with baseline star level AP destroy 2 quintillion stars with a kick? This isn't some hax ability where range and power aren't related, nor is this a video game where an explosion can deal the same damage at the center and edge.

 

[DavidTPPM]

When a shockwave destroys multiple objects, the total energy needed is the sum of the energy required to destroy each individual object. In a vacuum where there are no external factors, the energy input must account for the destruction of each object, making it a cumulative process. So the energy needed to destroy all the clones HAS to be at least as high as the amount of clones multiplied by Satans durability.
I'm pretty sure we learned this in like, 2nd year of high school (although I didn't exactly pay attention tbh)

 

[Da3ggman]

Disagree FRA.

If DBZ Goku (Just an example) uses a massive Kamehameha to blow up 1000 Solar System Level enemies, that doesn't mean that Goku is 1000x Solar System: just that he has the range to apply that same Solar System level attack across the thousand enemies.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Disagree FRA.

If DBZ Goku (Just an example) uses a massive Kamehameha to blow up 1000 Solar System Level enemies, that doesn't mean that Goku is 1000x Solar System: just that he has the range to apply that same Solar System level attack across the thousand enemies.

It would mean exactly that as long as the source of the energy is just a physical attack like in this case because that's how basic laws of conservation of energy work. This is very basic physics.

 

[Da3ggman]

It would mean exactly that as long as the source of the energy is just a physical attack like in this case because that's how basic laws of conservation of energy work. This is very basic physics.

No?

If an MMA Boxer knocks out 1000 people in a day, that doesn't mean that he is 1000x times stronger than a normal person lmao.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If an MMA Boxer knocks out 1000 people in a day, that doesn't mean that he is 1000x times stronger than a normal person lmao.

MASSIVE false equivalence. Mori didn't individually kick each of the 2 quintillion Satan clones. He vaporized them all in a single kick. If an MMA Boxer KOes 1000 people with a single strike he absolutely IS 1000x stronger than necessary to KO a single person. So yeah, basic high school physics.

 

[Swordsaint456]

If an MMA Boxer knocks out 1000 people in a day, that doesn't mean that he is 1000x times stronger than a normal person lmao.

thats alot different. thats not within a timeframe needed for AP. i believe in this instance its within a timeframe applicable to AP. your analogy just doesnt hold up

 

[Da3ggman]

MASSIVE false equivalence. Mori didn't individually kick each of the 2 quintillion Satan clones. He vaporized them all in a single kick. If an MMA Boxer KOes 1000 people with a single strike he absolutely IS 1000x stronger than necessary to KO a single person. So yeah, basic high school physics.

thats alot different. thats not within a timeframe needed for AP. i believe in this instance its within a timeframe applicable to AP. your analogy just doesnt hold up

I wasn't aware of the exact nature of the feat; thank you for clarifying.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I wasn't aware of the exact nature of the feat; thank you for clarifying.

No problem. Do you still disagree? I can try to clear out any misconceptions regarding the feat you might have

 

[Da3ggman]

No problem. Do you still disagree? I can try to clear out any misconceptions regarding the feat you might have

I'm more neutral now. While I personally don't see anything wrong with the feat, more knowledgable and trusted mods see something wrong with it, and they probably know more than me on this subject. Not really leaning one way or another, though.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm more neutral now. While I personally don't see anything wrong with the feat, more knowledgable and trusted mods see something wrong with it, and they probably know more than me on this subject. Not really leaning one way or another, though.

Understandable

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bumperino

 

[DavidTPPM]

Anyway here's the full explanation on why this isn't calc stacking so that people don't have to read the entire thread to understand my point:

Calc stacking, in nature, is the act of calculating the difference between 2 characters and then applying the calc to an already existing calc. To use an example from the wikis CS page:

• Character A has a certain speed through a calculation. He can not dodge the projectiles from character B from 2 meter distance. But Character C can dodge them from 1 meter distance, so character C has to be twice as fast as character A.

As shown above, we use 1 calc to determine the speed of character A, then use a second calc to determine the difference between character A and character C. Then we multiply the results of the 2 calcs to determine the final value. In other words, we stack one calculation on top of another.

An example of something similar that is NOT calc stacking would be Jirobos 10x statement. If look at Jirobos profile, we see his base strength is determined by taking a calc for his feat in CM2, then dividing it by 10x. This is acceptable because the difference between base and CM2 was stated and therefore doesn't need a calculation. Another good example would be the OPM graph. In this case we take the difference between start of fight Saitama and end of fight Saitama, then apply it to the 4-A calc. This again, is acceptable because the difference between the 2 characters doesn't need a calc but is rather given to us by the author. Therefore we only calculate 1 feat (the 4-A serious punch²) and multiply it by the difference in power given to us by the author with no 2nd calc necessary, and therefore no calc stacking.

So finally getting to the feat that this CRT is about, this would be essentially the same thing. The difference between Moris AP and Satans durability does NOT need a calc. We see Mori completely destroy all of Satans clones and we get a WOG about how many clones there are. We then apply this difference to Satans 4-C feat.
This follows the exact same formula as the 2 previously mentioned feats.
A canonical difference value (10x CM2 boost, the OPM graph, the amount of clones, etc) * the feat performed by the character (punching giant choji, serious punch², planet toss, etc) = final AP value.

While calc stacking would require a calc to determine the difference between 2 characters, in these 3 cases the difference is stated/shown by a reliable source (2/3x its a WoG). Therefore the argument itself only uses a SINGLE calc and logically cannot be calc stacking as that would require an additional SECOND calc that determines the difference between 2 characters.

Here's an example of what calc stacking this feat would look like:

Satans durability = 2.27e43J
The distance between Mori and the furthest Satan is at least 3.9924e+16 meters because that's how far Mori was shown to sense people. Mori destroyed the clones with a hemisphere shaped shockwave. So using inverse cube law calc for a hemisphere gives us:
Surface area=3.333308664244114e+49 cubic meters
2.6666469313952912e+50 cubic meters= 2.66664693139529078e+56 cubic centimeters
3.33330866424411401e+55x2.2785042e+43=7.5949578e+98 J Universe level

In this case we would calculate the difference between Mori and Satan instead of using any canonically given values, and get an inflated result. Now I'm not saying that "there are other ways to calculate this feat which would be calc stacking, so this isn't calc stacking" here, I'm showing the fundamental difference between calc stacking and simply applying canonical difference values to calcs (something very common within the wiki).

So in conclusion, the feat is indeed NOT calc stacking and falls in the same category as many other feats and statements used and accepted on the wiki.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[Swordsaint456]

have any staff given their input on this

 

[DavidTPPM]

have any staff given their input on this

Some had doubts but nobody answered after I cleared things up so I'm mostly waiting on staff input rn ig

 

[Swordsaint456]

Some had doubts but nobody answered after I cleared things up so I'm mostly waiting on staff input rn ig

oof

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bum(mer)p

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[Swordsaint456]

BUMP!!!!!

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bumperino

 

[Zeinx1]

It doesn't seem to be getting any attention. Have you sent it to the authorities?

 

[DavidTPPM]

It doesn't seem to be getting any attention. Have you sent it to the authorities?

Ehm no, how do you do that? I barely know how to open a thread on the wiki so idk how to contact anyone to look at it

 

[Zeinx1]

Ehm no, how do you do that? I barely know how to open a thread on the wiki so idk how to contact anyone to look at it

Dude, I would love to help you, let me tell you.