When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[QuasiYuri]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I complained about some Umineko stuff for quite some times now ever since the big revision we did, and it's time to do more than complaining.

Thanks to anyone who helped, either directly or indirectly.

Anyway, I know it'll obviously be a controversial thread, but since I'm moving tommorow it would be very nice of you to not overflow the thread with "just commenting to watch" or "oh boy it's gonna be good" as well as derailing. Just hit the Watch button if needed. Otherwise I'll delete any derailling comments if they happen to prevent stuff from going well.
I could have done the thread later, but hey, impulse makes everything

The Creator or what mistranslation does to mfs ​

It's been quite some times since I claimed that The Creator wasn't a singular being, but rather a title. Sadly me being right on everything isn't universal knowledge yet it was a poor, old CRT before we even revised Umineko.
"Kami Tenchi" and "EGD" were exposed as inventions (or misconceptions in the first case) in threads regarding their verses, and now is the time for one of the most used mistranslation in VS debatting, "The Creator".

Memoirs of Lambdadelta english translation and how 造物主 is cruelly misinterpreted in this​

Across all of Umineko, including manga and extra stories, we only see "The Creator" being formulated that way a single time in the entire verse, which is in this sentence of the english version of Memoirs of Lambdadelta. It is the only single sentence who ever used the term 造物主 in that way.

Now when you see this, you immediately think "they are clearly differenciating the gods from this singular being. It is the only one referred as singular and it is even made into its own sentence."

The problem is: the translation was likely handled by a different team from the ones doing ep 1 to 8, and they seem to fail to grasp the context + they seemingly didn't make a good translation.

Our Creator page says that Creators can't be a thing, because japanese has no plural so it can't be a plural term. Except this is obviously wrong. I think it's quite common knowledge on anyone dealing with jap series such as WTC that japanese's way to define gender or plural is context and/or suffix.

One of the most common misconceptions is that 造物主 is read as "The Creator" as in, a single, monotheistic God. While it can be translated as a singular thing, it is a common mistake of machine translators for it to be taken as singular despite the word not having any difference between its singular and plural form.
In addition to that, the term itself is used to refers to the 3 divinity of Shintoism, as reported by japanese wikipedia (yes, the kanji used in the title are different, but that's because 造物主 redirects to it since it's the exact same meaning), meaning the word in itself isn't a proof of plurality nor singularity.

Now, let's look at this scene, everything looks normal, right? Except you have a part of the extent that just got removed, which you can found in the japanese transcript on japanese Umineko wiki right there (it is also in the japanese version of the VN as well as both the japanese and english version of the manga, during Lambda-Sayo exchange, so it's definitely something acknowledged in both medium). Although there's fanpatchs which corrected that part, so I'll not divulge too much into "lol bad" territory.

「はい、自分はもう、魔女です。自分が求めるものはたったひとつ。自分と異なる魔女に
よる、自分を魔女だと認めるとの推薦だけです。」

　それはまさに、あの少女と同じ願い。

Is the screen that ends with "same wish as that little girl".
But after, that Lambda is supposed to say this in the next screen (with Sayo's response, which you see in the screen, being after the sentence).

「……実にたくましい魔女だこと。なるほどね、あなたがそうだと自称する限り、誰にも
あなたが魔女でないと否定することは出来ないでしょうね。……でも聞かせて欲しいの。
神も造物主も、誰に認められずとも神であり造物主よ？　そしてそれは魔女も同じはず。
…誰が認めずともあなたが魔女であるならば、私が認めずともあなたは魔女であるはず。
そうでしょう？」

See how Lambdadelta's sentence ends with a very off "but tell me." in the english sentence? Well, all the part in bold is what she's meant to say, but isn't here in the english version. It roughly translates as:

"Let me ask you that then. Aren't god(s) and creator(s) still god(s) and creator(s) without anyone to recognize them? And that is the same for witches. In that case, if you are a witch without anyone's approval, then you don't need my approval to be a Witch. Am I right?"

Lambdadelta doesn't put "Creator" as something better than Gods and there's no indication of it being a monotheistic being above the rest. Although the point here is that the translation clearly has its problems.

Now when you compare it to the one for the main EPs... they always see Creators as a group of individual or a title, and never referred to 造物主 as "The Creator" in any way. Hell, you even have stuff like "two Creators" being said (although it was a comparison).

So with this, I demonstrated that "The Creator" is a one off thing from a seemingly worse translation than the main EPs. Now I'm sure there's people who could say stuff like "yeah they removed a sentence but it doesn't mean the first team is right or the second wrong", so we'll do more than that by using the japanese version as well as some supplementary materials!

Concrete proof that "Creator" is a title for some dudes (and Featherine is one of them)​

So our cosmology blog have a fan-translation supposed to "correct" the official one, by replacing every mention of Creators as plural (or "a Creator") by The Creator. But as explained above, there's no given reason to do such a thing, and japanese is all about context.

But from if you look at the Creators TIPS, nothing can tell you if it talks about singular or plural, right? Well, the answer is that the context is given by the previous TIPS, the one about voyagers (here's the transcript of the official english translation).
Short summary for those who don't know about these: EP4 TIPS have 3 of them following each others, basically explaining the hierarchy between witches and stuff. The Witches' TIPS (about Territory Lord) ends with a short mention of voyagers and how Lambda/Bern are part of them; and the Voyagers one ends with an explanation that witches higher than Voyagers are called Creators.

航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる. being the part that says this very sentence. (Oh, and in case someone might says the verb is up to interpretation, it is read as "yobareru", which is the passive form of "yobu", which means to "to call"; here it means "to be called". And the only other part that isn't the names of Witches/Voyagers/Creators is より高位 which means higher than/of a higher order than... -here being witches of a higher order than voyagers-).

Since japanese is defined by context, and context uses a plural group of individuals here, it means Creators is also supposed to be read as a group of individuals in its own TIPS.

But there's more to it. Besides small stuff like Beatrice talking about ascending to the "status of Creator" (造物主の座にさえ 上りつめるだろう, with ぞうぶつしゅ being the kana form of the kanji for Creators), you have the all-too-famous scan of Featherine reaching the status Creator / becoming a Creator, which we dismiss because of... a scan saying she reached it.

Like seriously, it doesn't talk about any last boundary stopping here, they said she reached the highest, forbidden heights, which in lore is what "Kingdom of Gods" is. Any stuff like being the last boundary of another domain is just people trying to justify something that doesn't need to.

And then you have the last and maybe biggest thing, Ryushiki07's own explanations regarding Featherine and Creators, which are basically everything you need to prove this point even more.
Question 1 and 2 are basically saying Featherine writes the world and is Ryushiki07 "i'm strong af" self insert, which he calls the strongest character. But what's interresting are question 3 to 5, that talk about what is Featherine's nature, why Voyagers fear becoming Creators, and also kind of an explanation of "Maria being the strongest Creator" statement in the story.

Auau type of existence

• Question 3:そもそもフェザリーズとは、どういう存 在なのでしょう?
  • A『Ep6』のTipsで、フェザリーヌ が「生き死にを繰り返している」とあったのは、 フェザリーヌ自身が駒だった頃、自分たちも 誰かにライティングされている登場人物であ るという事実を知り、自由意志と信じて疑 わなかったことが、誰かにライティングされ ている物だと気づいたために死んじゃったん ですよね。でも彼女は、自らもライターとな って帰ってきた。 そして恥も外聞もなく、自 分の作品の中に自分を描くことで真の自由 意志を得た。彼女は今、リレーマンガのよ うな世界にいるのかもしれないですね。自 分のキャラは自分で書くけど、それ以外は 複数のライターが書いているような世界に 存在しているのかもしれません。
• Question 3: What kind of existence is Featherine anyway?
  • A:In the tips of Ep6, it was said that Featherine "constantly repeats a cycle of life and death." When Featherine herself was a piece, she realized that she was a character being written by someone, and what she had believed to be free will was being written by someone else. That's why she died. But she came back as a writer herself and found true free will by drawing herself in her own work, without shame or embarrassment. She may now be in a world of relay manga. She may exist in a world where she writes her own characters, but other characters are written by several writers.
• Question 4:航海者が造物主になるのを恐れるとい うのは、そのあたりに由来するのでしょうか?
  • A:そうですね。 マンガって読んで いるときは面白いけど、いずれ読み飽きち ゃう。でも白いノートを与えられて自分で書いていれば無限に遊べるので、マンガを読 むより遙かに面白いかもしれない。ただし、 自分のアイデアが枯渇したり、描く行為に 飽きたら終わりますよね。しかも自分(作者) の望まないような展開やキャラクターは生ま れてこない。造物主というのは何でも生み 出せるが故につまらない生き物ですよ。
• Question 4:Is that where the Voyager's fear of becoming a Creator comes from?
  • A:That's right. Manga is interesting when you read it, but eventually, you get tired of reading it. But if you are given a blank notebook and write in it yourself, you can play with it endlessly, which is much more interesting than reading manga. However, if you run out of ideas or get bored with the act of drawing, it's over. Moreover, you (the artist) will not be able to create characters or developments that you do not want. A Creator is a boring creature because they can create anything they want.
• Question 5:------ 他人が作った面白い話を読めなくなる んですね。
  • A:造物主でないほうが、TVの前 に座っていればどんどん物語を見ることが できるのと同じで楽なんですよ。人間は、 自分が誰かの作品の登場人物であることす ら自覚しておらず、自由意志によって行動 していると信じているので、一番気楽な存 在です。一方でベルンやラムダたちは、チャンネ ルを自由に変えたり、ときどきシナリオライ ターに注文をつけて、話に介入できる階層。 ただし介入すると物語が変わってしまうの で、その事実はギリギリまで知らないふりを している。 フェザリーヌは、そこに踏み込ん で死んでしまったんでしょう。 白紙のノート に妄想するのは楽しいけど、そこにずっと話 を書き続けるのはかなりしんどいので、魔 女は死んでしまうわけですね。魔女というの は、「自分たちは、誰かの創作物じゃないか」 ということに気づき始めていて、なおかつ 異なる創作物を閲覧できる立場にいる者で、 上に行けば行くほど執筆者の立場に近づい ていき、本当に執筆者の域まで到達すると 終わってしまう。真里亞が「原初の魔女」と 呼ばれた理由は、飽きることなく、ゼロから ドンドンとアイデアや世界を膨らませていけ るからなんです。
• Question 5:---You won't be able to read interesting stories made by others
  • A:It's easier to not be a creator, just like it's easier to sit in front of the TV and watch more and more stories. Humans are the most comfortable because they don't even know they are characters in someone else's work, and they believe they are acting of their own free will. On the other hand, Bern, Lambda, and the rest of the hierarchy can intervene in the story by changing the channel at will and occasionally giving orders to the scenario writer. However, they pretend not to know this fact until the very last minute, because it would change the story. I think that's what killed Featherine. It's fun to fantasize in a blank notebook, but it's very hard to keep writing stories in it, so the witch dies. Witches are those who have begun to realize that they are someone else's creation, and they are in a position to view different creations. The reason why Maria was called "the Witch of Origins" is because she can expand her ideas and world from scratch without ever getting bored.

To summarise all the big infos here: Creators are the writers of the world (those who create fate, to take Lambdadelta's Memoirs words), Featherine is one of them and her avatars (witch, human, etc... selves) are her self-inserts, there are several writers, Voyagers fear boredom (after all it is their main disease) and Creators are booring af, they know about stuff but pretend they don't, Voyagers are those who know they are under someone's control but don't want to be the one under for this reason, and Maria is the Witch of Origins and all because she would never get bored, which is what it means to be the strongest Creator in the verse's context.

Overall, it establish without a single doubt that Creator is a title granted to several beings, whom Featherine is part of.

As such, we should delete "The Creator"'s page, change Featherine's last key to give her Creator stuff, yeet this note from the world, change any justification using "The Creator" and update the cosmology + verse pages accordingly.

Quite a big change already, isn't it? Well, there's more!

The Third Domain, the infinite ladder and their headcanons​

So now that we introduced the quite important Q&A and Creator info, it actually helps to tackle even more things.

A ladder is quite a big thing​

So the basis of High 1-B or p much anything involving 1-A comes from a single thing: Lambdadelta talking about an infinite ladder with infinite steps, which we consider to be restricted to the Witch Domain.
Well, I'm here to challenge this notion, and explains how it just can't be as limited as we think it is.

I would first get your attention to this specific scene, especially the sentences that appear on the first screen appearing since the timestamp.

In this english translation, Lambdadelta says that all beings can be put between two extremes, the extremes being the lowest part of the Human Domain, and the highest being the "Kingdom of God", with the infinite ladder being for everything in between, nowhere does it says that it is restricted to the Witch Domain, just that they are around "the middle". While the Witch world is part of that infinite ladder, the opposite doesn't have to be true.

Not convinced? Well, there's more to support that.

This statement is pretty much the same in the japanese version, being 全ての存在は、運命に翻弄される側と運命を生み出す側の二極の間のどこかに位置していると説明できる。

However the kanji translated as being there is 存在, which has another meaning, existence. As shown prior, Lambdadelta Memoirs is really badly translated, and the specific part of the sentence 全ての存在は can be commonly read as all of existence, making the idea that Lambda's talking not only about the Witch Domain even stronger.

In addition to that, you can't say that Lambda didn't know about Featherine's study or about anything outside the Witch Domain either, since she's the one who litteraly gave us the information about it for the very first time, meaning she knows about it all too well, and yet still think this ladder is for all of existence and not just her domain.

What it means is that the Witch Domain would actually only hold a finite amount of layers, and that the only character who may qualify for scaling to an infinite amount being avatar Feath.

But before any rebuttals using the Third Domain, please read the two others parts.

New layers in a new domain?​

With the idea of a Third Domain (which is how people decided to nickname where City of Books and Aurora's Study are, something I'll talk about in the next part) was born the idea of infinite new layers of a hierarchy.
My arguments will be against the hierarchy proposed in our current cosmology blog known as "3rd Domain Hierarchy".

First thing is: it clashes with Lambdadelta explanation, which only mention a single ladder for everything up to Creator. She knows about the Senate, she knows about the City of Books, she knows about Featherine's Study, she knows about Gods and Creators, yet never once did she made a difference between anything under Kingdom of God regarding the ladder. They all are mere layers of a single big ladder and it doesn't make sense for her to not say anything about it.

But wait, let's see what are the scans used to prove a new hierarchy, and an infinite one, at that.

Ignoring the first scan which just says that Featherine>Witches, the second one uses a sentence talking about Beatrice "stepping in her level".

Here's the japanese version of that exact part in the screen.

その意味において、自らの魔法体系を組み上げた彼女は、魔女としては初心の部類に入りながらも、その域は魔女をすでに凌駕して、…貴方の域にまで踏み込み掛けていると言えるかもしれない。

The part that was translated as "step into" is 踏み込み which does mean that, but just in a "to get into" way. It isn't talking about any kind of layers, and is just another way of saying "I think she's starting to become a witch of your caliber / of the same level as you". There's no cosmological implication regarding this sentence, making the thing already pretty shaky, but then you have the proof of a new infinite hierarchy which is...

"Voyagers journey having no endpoint". I don't think there's a need to get the japanese on this one. Featherine was a Voyager and ended as Creator per Ryushiki07's words (see the part using the interview) so it's just flowery language.
Besides, this statement comes from a TIPS before anyone even talked about Featherine's world, and seeing it as referring to that makes no sense (given Voyagers aren't living there and have no business having their journey there for most of them), and is obviously referring to them ascending the layers of the infinite ladder the way Lambdadelta explained in her Memoirs.

As such, there's no second hierarchy, and the ladder extent to the entire verse except the "Kingdom of Gods". I think there's no hiding that it'll affect the tier of the verse, but I'll only talk about such matter at the very end.

Now, to our next issue.

City of Books, where are thou? (featuring Lambda/Bern stuff)​

Lambda/Bern aren't encompassing everything dude​

Quoting the CRT who made it happen, we have a key for Voyagers which is based on them being "abstract and universal laws that cover the entirety of the witch domain" which later got extended to including the "Third Domain".
Not mentionning the fact that we have no scan about it and that most of it is just taking bits of statements like Golden Fantasia having Lambda saying the world is meant to entertain them (which, as seen in the interview, makes more sense for it to be like someone watching a TV, not them being the entire world); it contradicts Lambda Memoirs again but also Umineko in general.

The true, undeniable Lambdadelta flat out says she isn't anywhere done with the infinite ladder, and also stated a screen prior that witches were in the middle of it. In her Memoirs, which obviously apply to her true self.
The japanese is kind of similar besides possibly taking "witches higher than me" as being used to refer to Beato eventually going to surpass her because she doesn't have fear.

Anyway, as of now in Umineko, Bernkastel is stated to be below Lambdadelta several times and she likely would have lost their fight if not for Feath's intervening, so this also apply to her.

Besides, it should be mentionned that what we were doing is saying that somehow, Bern and Lambda already finished ascending this ladder and were in fact on the same level as Featherine's manifestation, which makes no sense.

As such, we should just follow what the work tells us, and remove this nonsensical key.

Third Domain, Featherine's study, and City of Book​

First things first, the "Third Domain" is a headcanon. Nowhere in any of the medium was it ever referred as a domain or anything like that. The only thing we have is Featherine's Study being outside of the Witch Domain, which would just be its own realm just like how you can have stuff between Human/Witch Domain.

Now, we are under the idea that the City of Books is at the top of the ladder because of this transition showing Feath's study in it.

And well, I guess it can be a proof?
But I think it is kind of a strecth to put others witches on Featherine's (self-insert?) level based on this. The Senate are the strongest witches in existence, and "hardly different from gods and creators", but they are still witches, which means they are still in the ladder. Since Lambdadelta, a witch of the Senate, still thinks she has a long way to go before reaching the end of the ladder, the Senate not being at the end of it looks more logic. And as hown prior, said ladder only stops at the "Kingdom of Gods", so it's more coherent that way.

Another minor problem I have is the fact that the Tea Party used seems to have Feath writing and talking to someone which would be another Creator based on how there's a being emphasis on Feath talking to "nothing", "no one", etc... and how it echoes Ryushiki07 equaling Creators with Writers or his talk about what Feath does in Question 3, which would imply that Feath's Study is closer to the "Kingdom of Gods" than the City of Book.

However this last argument is shaky af, so I only want to propose to keep City of Books and Feath Study above Witch Domain, but still on the ladder, as their own thing and not a part of an invention such as this "Third Domain".
At best, I think the City of Books scaling to her study may warrant a "possibly" if there's a need for it to have it; but that's just preferences on this one, so you can ignore it.

I intended to include a part about Oblivion, but eh, I'm lazy, so let's see how it affects tiering.

"Wow, Yuri's revision ends up being a downgrade, how surprising​

Surprise no surprise, everything I said will downgrade the verse quite a lot.

To summarise the current tiering reasonning for the Meta Beings, here how it is:

• Dudes in 1-B are in the Witch Domain, since they are in the middle of an infinite ladder made of infinite layers; but the layer they are on is unkown
• Those in High 1-B are at the end of the Witch Domain or already started leaving it; because we think that the infinite ladder is restricted to this domain only
• 1-A is for those above the Witch Domain
• 1-A+ is because, since Voyagers' journey has no end, it means there's an infinite hierarchy to a new domain between the witch and creator domain.
• High 1-A is for Feath, because she's above everyone in this domain and sustain stuff; but we don't consider her to be a Creator
• Tier 0 is for Maria and The Creation, who are above Feath and everything in existence to the point of lacking limitations entirely.

Now let's take this, but with the new infos we used and the changements they bring

• Dudes in 1-B are in the Witch Domain, since they are in the middle of an infinite ladder made of infinite laders but the layer they are on is unkown
• Since the ladder extents to everything up to the Creator and doesn't have to stop at the Witch Domain, being at the end of it is just higher in 1-B
• At least 1-B for being above the Witch Domain
• There's no second hierarchy or anything, with the Voyagers stuff not hinting toward any form of new cosmological structure and its the same place as the one for the higher 1-B so... yeah, another big 1-B
• Feath is a Creator therefore her true self can't be used to scale Creators. However there's a possibily that the Great Witches and the Self Insert are riiiiight at the very last layer, even if Erika's statement is to be more "it's so ******* high it doesn't make a difference where they are"; meaning those in the City of Books could be seen as possibly High 1-B. Also Oblivion would likely scale to High 1-B as well, since it's the void background of existence.
• Gods and Creators, such as Featherine and Full Potential Maria are beyond the entire ladder and lacks all form of limitations, making them reach the honorable tier of 1-A.

How Featherine's Study fit in it can be debatted between 1-B and 1-A; although the highest end seems unlikely.

End of the golden thread​

To summarise, we need to:

• Yeet "The Creator" page and anything keeping the idea of such a being existing from all the profiles. Then we have to change the profiles to show how Creators truly are.
• The infinite ladder extents to all of existence and not just Witch Domain, it is an important thing which would be taken into account for the cosmology
• There's no other hierarchy than the ladder and we should stop using fan stuff like "Third Domain", which sets a bad precedent. Just say "City of Books" and "Feath Study"
• Voyagers aren't encompassing all of existence, with Lambdadelta saying they are in the middle and even the strongest witches just being veeeery high in the ladder
• Changing the tiers accordingly, which gives what I proposed prior.

I'm planning another little CRT about magic and oblivion, but I guess I just like to do the big ones first.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Shouldn't this be staff only, anyways I am here to see how this plays out

 

[QuasiYuri]

Shouldn't this be staff only, anyways I am hear to see how this plays out

Well, restricting everything to staff only looks kinda bad I would say? There's regular users just as knowledgeable and competent as staff.
Although if it turns into derailment or anything too annoying it'll be made into a staff thread.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

hmmm.... following

 

[Whiz_Almighty]

Looking forward for the downgrade whahaha

 

[QuasiYuri]

it would be very nice of you to not overflow the thread with "just commenting to watch" or "oh boy it's gonna be good" as well as derailing. Just hit the Watch button if needed. Otherwise I'll delete any derailling comments if they happen to prevent stuff from going well.

Did anyone read the thread?

 

[Ovy7]

Multiple Creators thingy

Don't really care if Creator is singular or plural, really, but that sentence you claim is missing is actually present in other translations. I have all the Umineko scripts and it's there.

Concrete proof that "Creator" is a title for some dudes (and Featherine is one of them)

Too bad all of that got retconned in Last Note were we are explicitly told that Featherine is the closest to the Creator/Creators, meaning she ain't one, as you can't really the closest to something you already are:

フェザリーヌ・アウグストゥス・アウローラ。

ピースを遣わした、最も造物主に近い最高位の魔女。

その力は、神羅万象を物語のように俯瞰し、物語のように自在に書き換えて世界の干渉することが出来るというもの。

Featherine Augustus Aurora

The highest ranking witch, who dispatched Piece, was the most closest to the Creator

That power of hers could let her overlook all of creation and meddle/interefere with the world akin to that of a story/tale and freely rewrite it

Oh, and btw, the above isn't a machine translation, but translated by someone who knows japanese (and spends most of their time reading untranslated eroge/nukige).

So yeah, this point is nuked by Ryu himself, 8 years after that interview there.

The Third Domain, the infinite ladder and their headcanons

Weird how you call it headcanon, but let's see...

A ladder is quite a big thing

That's nice and all... but Lambda directly says "our world" when she talks about the ladder, and she does this way before all that jazz about the poles and stuff:

私たちの世界は、底無き深遠へ続く無限の梯子を降りるのに似ているかもしれない。

Perhaps, our world is like an endless stepladder going down into bottomless depths.

私たち literally means "we/us" and with の世界 added it means "Our world".

But this on itself ain't that important for this CRT, so, let's get into that.

The 3rd Domain stuff

Yes, Lambda knows about the City of Books and Senate, of course she will, which is why I also have a problem with CoB being in the 3rd Domain. But that can wait, as I'll prove why a 3rd domain is a thing.

There's the famous scan that directly tells us Featherine exits in a world above that of the Witches (and sees it as fiction), in the same way that Witches exists in a world above that of Humans (and sees them as fiction):

This already should tell that she's in a higher domain to that of Witches, but I'll add more.

Lambda mentions how Beato is going down the ladder in a very fast and reckless manner and makes her wonder if she'll surpass her and show her a new, unknown world:


　この怖いもの知らずの魔女は、私よりも遥かに遥かに、…その制限がないのだ。
Those witches that aren't afraid of falling are much more powerful than I am.

彼女は私の、千年の旅路の退屈をひと時紛らわせてくれるだけの一杯の紅茶なのか。
Will this person become a teacup, that relieves just a moment of the endless boredom on my thousand-year journey?

それとも、臆病な私如きでは永遠に至れないかもしれない深遠を照らし出し、私に未知の世界を見せ付けてくれる、私より遥かに上位の魔女たりえるのか…！
Or will they become a witch that far surpasses who I am, and show me an unknown new world?

And again:

私を未知なる世界へ導く救いの船となるのか。
Will they become my saviour and take me into an unknown world?

それとも、私の午後をわずかの時間だけ優雅にする一杯の紅茶止まりなのか
Or are they just another cup of tea to make my day more elegant?

And, finally, Piece mentions that Featherine had touched the Peak, realised that she'll lose her will if she passes it, and so she returned:

【ピース】 「我が主は、その極致に触れられ、ここは意志ある者の辿り着くべきところではないと悟られ、お還りになられたのでピス」
[Piece] My Lord touched the peak and realized that this was no place for a person with will to reach, so she returned, piece.

To recapitulate:

1. Featherine reached the Peak, but realized she'll lose her will so she returned
2. Featherine isn't a Creator, but the closest Witch to It/Them
3. Featherine exists in a higher world to that of the world of Witches, where the entire world of Witches is nothing but fiction to her
4. We are told by Lambda that there could be an unknown world to her that Beatrice could possibly reach, and going by Bernkastel's Letter to Featherine, she unconsciously did it

This very clearly shows that a 3rd Domain should exist, otherwise this entire thing makes no logical sense.

The only problem with this is the City of Books being in the 3rd Domain, which I agree that it isn't.

My conclusions

• Featherine isn't a Creator, but the closest Witch to It/Them. The notion that she is one got retconned by Last Note which was released in 2019
• The 3rd Domain is a thing, as Featherine can neither be in the Creators' Domain (Realm of Zero, how the JP text calls it IIRC) nor in the lower domains (Witch and Human Domain)
• City of Books should likely be downgraded as part of the Witch Domain

So, TL;DR: I don't agree with the CRT.

Ultima would also make a response to this CRT soon.

 

[Ovy7]

Also, the article you used for 造物主 also mentions that it can be used for Monotheistic religions:

単一神教では創造神を他の神と異なる超越的な神とする場合が多い

 

[Darksmash]

I agree with the heirarchy part

The creator stuff is kinda weirdly Inconsistent overall but I tend to agree with Ovy on it being a single entity(even though Ryukishi's interview opposes that for some reason). Also I agree that third domain is a thing, but that doesn't mean the witch domain has infinite layers

Memoirs of Lambdadelta is indeed badly translated

For example, the scan that says "My endeavours" aren't bound by any numbers was actually referring to a statement Beatrice previously makes demanding her efforts bear fruit, on which Lambdadelta comments that "My efforts"(translated as "My endeavours" for some reason) is not limited by numbers, as in Beatrice didn't specify the quantity of efforts in her wish, which is like asking infinite wishes.

「私の努力が、絶対に叶うという保証を下さい。」
「……はぁ？　何それぇ？　この私が願い事を叶えてあげるというのに、自分でそれを叶
えるというの？　その為の保証？　わけわかんない。」

　たまに、哲学的と称して、自分でも意味がわかってないに違いないおかしなこをと言い
出すニンゲンはいる。この少女もきっと、そういう類の子だろうと思ったわ。

　“私の努力”は個数を限定しない。聞き方によっては、叶える願いの数を無限に増やし
て下さいと言っているのとよく似ている。

Voyagers' journey not having an endpoint is also clearly hyperbolic, since they are afraid of becoming the creator and hence stall their journey, until the fear of the creator disappears. This is evident from the fact that Lambda says witches that aren't afraid of merging with the creator and are on the journey to become one with him(which by definition has an endpoint) just exist on deeper depths in comparison to her. Nothing also really suggests the witch domain has infinite layers. I don't even know where that comes from.

Oh and I don't see any reason for the creator to get a tier inaccessibly above the heirarchy given that it can be reached by the exact same algorithm of removing restrictions and adding steps

But I guess since it's Umineko this thread would ultimately be rejected despite the quality of the arguments

 

[QuasiYuri]

Don't really care if Creator is singular or plural, really, but that sentence you claim is missing is actually present in other translations. I have all the Umineko scripts and it's there.

My bad then. Although it doesn't change Creator stuff.

Too bad all of that got retconned in Last Note were we are explicitly told that Featherine is the closest to the Creator/Creators, meaning she ain't one, as you can't really the closest to something you already are:

フェザリーヌ・アウグストゥス・アウローラ。

ピースを遣わした、最も造物主に近い最高位の魔女。

その力は、神羅万象を物語のように俯瞰し、物語のように自在に書き換えて世界の干渉することが出来るというもの。

Featherine Augustus Aurora

The highest ranking witch, who dispatched Piece, was the most closest to the Creator

That power of hers could let her overlook all of creation and meddle/interefere with the world akin to that of a story/tale and freely rewrite it

Oh, and btw, the above isn't a machine translation, but translated by someone who knows japanese (and spends most of their time reading untranslated eroge/nukige).

So yeah, this point is nuked by Ryu himself, 8 years after that interview there.

It goes against most of the previous statements and can be justified as referring to her self insert; since it is what "Featherine" is to her true self though.

Weird how you call it headcanon, but let's see...

I call it that way because it's never considered to be a domain.

That's nice and all... but Lambda directly says "our world" when she talks about the ladder, and she does this way before all that jazz about the poles and stuff:

私たちの世界は、底無き深遠へ続く無限の梯子を降りるのに似ているかもしれない。

Perhaps, our world is like an endless stepladder going down into bottomless depths.

私たち literally means "we/us" and with の世界 added it means "Our world".

But this on itself ain't that important for this CRT, so, let's get into that.

Well, it is their world since they live in it; it just is their's as much as everyone else's. Also we consider all the ladder stuff to be the same thing being talked about in the pole part

The 3rd Domain stuff

Yes, Lambda knows about the City of Books and Senate, of course she will, which is why I also have a problem with CoB being in the 3rd Domain. But that can wait, as I'll prove why a 3rd domain is a thing.

There's the famous scan that directly tells us Featherine exits in a world above that of the Witches (and sees it as fiction), in the same way that Witches exists in a world above that of Humans (and sees them as fiction):

This already should tell that she's in a higher domain to that of Witches, but I'll add more.

I already explained how it would be inside the ladder, and I already said Feath's realm above the Witch world, it's just not a domain.

Lambda mentions how Beato is going down the ladder in a very fast and reckless manner and makes her wonder if she'll surpass her and show her a new, unknown world:

　この怖いもの知らずの魔女は、私よりも遥かに遥かに、…その制限がないのだ。
Those witches that aren't afraid of falling are much more powerful than I am.

彼女は私の、千年の旅路の退屈をひと時紛らわせてくれるだけの一杯の紅茶なのか。
Will this person become a teacup, that relieves just a moment of the endless boredom on my thousand-year journey?

それとも、臆病な私如きでは永遠に至れないかもしれない深遠を照らし出し、私に未知の世界を見せ付けてくれる、私より遥かに上位の魔女たりえるのか…！
Or will they become a witch that far surpasses who I am, and show me an unknown new world?

And again:

私を未知なる世界へ導く救いの船となるのか。
Will they become my saviour and take me into an unknown world?

それとも、私の午後をわずかの時間だけ優雅にする一杯の紅茶止まりなのか
Or are they just another cup of tea to make my day more elegant?

Thing is: Lambdadelta knows about Featherine's world, she's the one who gives us the sentence about it.
So it can't be something she just didn't know, and it just means that Beatrice will reach greater heights than her.

And, finally, Piece mentions that Featherine had touched the Peak, realised that she'll lose her will if she passes it, and so she returned:

【ピース】 「我が主は、その極致に触れられ、ここは意志ある者の辿り着くべきところではないと悟られ、お還りになられたのでピス」
[Piece] My Lord touched the peak and realized that this was no place for a person with will to reach, so she returned, piece.

As explained prior, it can be justified as being her self-insert thing, since it's how she came back per Ryu's words. The lack of will echoes the boredom thing.
Although she still would be Creator level.

To recapitulate:

1. Featherine reached the Peak, but realized she'll lose her will so she returned
2. Featherine isn't a Creator, but the closest Witch to It/Them
3. Featherine exists in a higher world to that of the world of Witches, where the entire world of Witches is nothing but fiction to her
4. We are told by Lambda that there could be an unknown world to her that Beatrice could possibly reach, and going by Bernkastel's Letter to Featherine, she unconsciously did it

This very clearly shows that a 3rd Domain should exist, otherwise this entire thing makes no logical sense.
The only problem with this is the City of Books being in the 3rd Domain, which I agree that it isn't.

I think you misunderstood something. I agree that ("self inser) Feath is not in the Witch world nor the Creator's. I'm just saying it is just her own realm and not any form of "domain" in itself.

My conclusions

• Featherine isn't a Creator, but the closest Witch to It/Them. The notion that she is one got retconned by Last Note which was released in 2019
• The 3rd Domain is a thing, as Featherine can neither be in the Creators' Domain (Realm of Zero, how the JP text calls it IIRC) nor in the lower domains (Witch and Human Domain)
• City of Books should likely be downgraded as part of the Witch Domain

So, TL;DR: I don't agree with the CRT.

Ultima would also make a response to this CRT soon.

There's some parts of the CRT you didn't adress too; such as the infinite layers of Feath's realm ("Third Domain") or Lambda/Bern true form stuff; which are p much what downgrade the verse the most, since without the first it would end up as 1-A.

I'll take it as it not being problematic for now if you don't mind.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, the article you used for 造物主 also mentions that it can be used for Monotheistic religions:

単一神教では創造神を他の神と異なる超越的な神とする場合が多い

Yeah, I said so in the OP myself. My point is how it wasn't the case here and that people previously thought it could only mean a monotheistic one.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah, I said so in the OP myself. My point is how it wasn't the case here and that people previously thought it could only mean a monotheistic one.

quasi is umineko tiering being downgraded (a little bit)?

 

[QuasiYuri]

The creator stuff is kinda weirdly Inconsistent overall but I tend to agree with Ovy on it being a single entity(even though Ryukishi's interview opposes that for some reason).

How is it inconsistent tho? The only mention of "The Creator" is exclusive to the english version of a Lambda Memoirs, which you agreed to be badly translated.
Everything else says the opposite, from vn to manga to interviews.

 

[QuasiYuri]

quasi is umineko tiering being downgraded (a little bit)?

It's like, said in the title and the OP.

Please read it before asking this kind of question.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

It's like, said in the title and the OP.

Please comment after reading it.

yeah but i'd like laymans terms please

 

[Rikimarox2]

quasi is umineko tiering being downgraded (a little bit)?

It's like, the thread title literally states that its a downgrade, and you can at the very least just read the TL;DR at the bottom. Please read the thread before commenting.

Anyways, gud thread. Currently neutral, but leaning towards agreement. Waiting for more arguments from Ovy or Ultima.

 

[Birgi126]

Too bad all of that got retconned in Last Note were we are explicitly told that Featherine is the closest to the Creator/Creators, meaning she ain't one, as you can't really the closest to something you already are:

Just want to reply to this, but the background clearly shows “City of Books”, so this is likely talking about Featherine’s City of Books avatar, which you already said that you think shouldn’t be part of Third Domain.
Aka, this doesn’t really contradict anything, it is just Featherine’s avatae that is closest to a Creator.

 

[Darksmash]

How is it inconsistent tho? The only mention of "The Creator" is exclusive to the english version of a Lambda Memoirs, which you agreed to be badly translated.
Everything else says the opposite, from vn to manga to interviews.

Mainly the thing Ovy brought up, about Featherine being the closest to the Creator.

Creator stuff is honestly pretty vague, as sometimes it's implied it's an unconscious thing while sometimes it's implied to be a conscious entity

 

[Ningenron]

quasi is umineko tiering being downgraded (a little bit)?

What about actually reading the thread?

 

[Ovy7]

It goes against most of the previous statements and can be justified as referring to her self insert; since it is what "Featherine" is to her true self though.

Yes... that's what a retcon is. It's newer info, so it takes precedence over older stuff.

I already explained how it would be inside the ladder, and I already said Feath's realm above the Witch world, it's just not a domain.

It can't be inside the ladder is it sees it all as a gameboard. The same notions as the other 2 domains are used for this one too, so the intent is explicitly clear.

Thing is: Lambdadelta knows about Featherine's world, she's the one who gives us the sentence about it. So it can't be something she just didn't know, and it just means that Beatrice will reach greater heights than her.

That was the narrator, not Lambda (at least in the VN). So her not knowing still stands.

As explained prior, it can be justified as being her self-insert thing, since it's how she came back per Ryu's words. The lack of will echoes the boredom thing.
Although she still would be Creator level.

It makes no sense in that context to be her self-insert, when Piece is clearly speaking of her as the entire entity.

There's some parts of the CRT you didn't adress too; such as the infinite layers of Feath's realm ("Third Domain") or Lambda/Bern true form stuff; which are p much what downgrade the verse the most, since without the first it would end up as 1-A.

The one with the infinite layers of Feathrine's realm is directly tied to her position as a Witch and not a Creator, so, me disagreeing with that also means I disagree with this one as well.

As for their true forms, I also disagree with it. We know they represent universal concepts and that all versions that we saw of them are just avatars, so I don't see a problem with it. The only problem would be them not being included in Auau's domain.

Just want to reply to this, but the background clearly shows “City of Books”, so this is likely talking about Featherine’s City of Books avatar, which you already said that you think shouldn’t be part of Third Domain.
Aka, this doesn’t really contradict anything, it is just Featherine’s avatae that is closest to a Creator.

The context of that scene is the narrator directly telling us about Featherine, as she's not present at all there. The background used doesn't really matter at all. It's not like Featherine is there and the characters are talking about her.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Mainly the thing Ovy brought up, about Featherine being the closest to the Creator.

The raw he provided just says "Creator". "The Creator" was just how he or his friend put it, like how the blog's supposed to "correct" the Creators TIPS by putting Tbe Creator despite being obviously Creators.

Creator stuff is honestly pretty vague, as sometimes it's implied it's an unconscious thing while sometimes it's implied to be a conscious entity

Not really, all materials refers to them as higher beings.

 

[Birgi126]

The context of that scene is the narrator directly telling us about Featherine, as she's not present at all there. The background used doesn't really matter at all. It's not like Featherine is there and the characters are talking about her.

It is actually Battler, Beatrice and Ange thinking about her, and comparing the ability she has to Piece. It isn’t narrated by an Omniscient viewpoint, it is by those 3. Battler and Beatrice only saw her in City of Books and there is City of Books in background, plus it contradicts earlier statements yet can be explained without being a retcon, I don’t see why you would think that this refers to her true self

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yes... that's what a retcon is. It's newer info, so it takes precedence over older stuff.

There's retcons and justifiable stuff. This fall under the second one.

It can't be inside the ladder is it sees it all as a gameboard. The same notions as the other 2 domains are used for this one too, so the intent is explicitly clear.

It sees the Witch Domain as such, not the ladder; which has nothing between its end and the "Kingdom of Gods" m.

That was the narrator, not Lambda (at least in the VN). So her not knowing still stands.

The scan I used shows it's Lambdadelta thoughts, and the manga is as canon as the VN.

It makes no sense in that context to be her self-insert, when Piece is clearly speaking of her as the entire entity.

Featherine is just the name of her role/self-insert, so it does make sense.

The one with the infinite layers of Feathrine's realm is directly tied to her position as a Witch and not a Creator, so, me disagreeing with that also means I disagree with this one as well.

It is only partly tied. The only proof of "infinite hierarchy of Third Domain is a flowery statement as explained prior, something you didn't counter yet.

As for their true forms, I also disagree with it. We know they represent universal concepts and that all versions that we saw of them are just avatars, so I don't see a problem with it. The only problem would be them not being included in Auau's domain.

Lambda Memoirs is the actual thing writing her own memoirs. She isn't encompassing the Witch domain anytime soon (as she said several times to still be far from the end) and can still be conceptual in nature.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

It's like, the thread title literally states that its a downgrade, and you can at the very least just read the TL;DR at the bottom. Please read the thread before commenting.

Anyways, gud thread. Currently neutral, but leaning towards agreement. Waiting for more arguments from Ovy or Ultima.

yeah i know

 

[Accelerate420]

Regardless of whether or not Creators are plural or singular, it doesn't change the fact that the Kingdom of God is tier 0 territory. That's just semantics and the idea of removing the tiering because of it is ridiculous when all existing evidence, even in retcons, still impose the domain of the Creator/Creators as being unbound from all restrictions. All my other disagreements are being handled by ovy so I won't mention them.

But I am on Ovy's side for this one so far.

 

[Darksmash]

The raw he provided just says "Creator". "The Creator" was just how he or his friend put it, like how the blog's supposed to "correct" the Creators TIPS by putting Tbe Creator despite being obviously Creators.

Well I guess that makes sense
Then I am neutral on the creator stuff.

Though I don't think it would impact the tier anyway. I am all for 1-B/1-A max

I don't see why having no restrictions would grant them a tier Inaccessible to the heirarchy either. Its just using the same algorithm to remove all restrictions. We already equate removing restrictions with climbing the ladder as far as I know. Removing all of them should be High 1-B

 

[QuasiYuri]

Regardless of whether or not Creators are plural or singular, it doesn't change the fact that the Kingdom of God is tier 0 territory. That's just semantics and the idea of removing the tiering because of it is ridiculous when all existing evidence, even in retcons, still impose the domain of the Creator/Creators as being unbound from all restrictions. All my other disagreements are being handled by ovy so I won't mention them.

The tier wouldn't change because of Creator being singular or plural, where did you even get that idea?

Being unbound from all restrictions isn't enough to get tier 0, and the only think that put Kingdom of Gods as High 1-A/Tier 0 was because people decided that "Voyagers journey having no endpoint = there's a second infinite hierarchy", which is obviously not enough of a proof for anything.

And without that, the Kingdom of God doesn't get anywhere beyond 1-A.

You really seem to misunderstand what's supposed to downgrade the verse.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well I guess that makes sense
Then I am neutral on the creator stuff.

Though I don't think it would impact the tier anyway. I am all for 1-B/1-A max

It doesn't impact the tier yeah, it is totally unrelated to this specific issue.

 

[Darksmash]

because people decided that "Voyagers journey having no endpoint = there's a second infinite hierarchy

I don't think that would have had an impact anyway. Lambda says she was climbing on the same ladder. So even if we are to assume the Voyagers participate in an "endless" journey it would have been in line with the Creator residing above infinite number of steps.

But that is beside the point, since the context was about them being afraid to go too deep because of the creator.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't think that would have had an impact anyway. Lambda says she was climbing on the same ladder. So even if we are to assume the Voyagers participate in an "endless" journey it would have been in line with the Creator residing above infinite number of steps.

But that is beside the point, since the context was about them being afraid to go too deep because of the creator.

It was this statement from the TIPS which is currently used to get anything beyond 1-A so I obviously had to address it.

 

[Megaraptor149]

this is what i've been waiting for

 

[UlbertAlain]

Well I guess that makes sense
Then I am neutral on the creator stuff

 

[Gwirgisdagoat]

the translation was likely handled by a different team from the ones doing ep 1 to 8

Do we have any kind of proof for that?

Now when you see this, you immediately think "they are clearly differenciating the gods from this singular being. It is the only one referred as singular and it is even made into its own sentence."

we also saw Erika in ep 8 saying that gods and creator are not the same

https://i.gyazo.com/94d5d0b8717413ceb985c5584c931373.png

Lambdadelta doesn't put "Creator" as something better than Gods and there's no indication of it being a monotheistic being above the rest

but she also never said they are the same, since “Creators and gods” it makes the implication that they are 2 different things

Creators are the writers of the world (those who create fate, to take Lambdadelta's Memoirs words), Featherine is one of them and her avatars (witch, human, etc... selves) are her self-inserts, there are several writers,

Featherine was never called a creator(further proved by Last note), what it said was that she writes about herself while others are being written by maybe many writers, witches themselves can be writers in the sense of creating stories in carboxes and gameboards

Well, I'm here to challenge this notion, and explains how it just can't be as limited as we think it is.

why do that when Featherine is stated to look down upon the witche’s domain from an even higher world?

https://i.gyazo.com/230c805d7e1b343474bd6f10218dc657.png

Featherine was a Voyager and ended as Creator per Ryushiki07's words

Never said she was a creator

to Beato eventually going to surpass her because she doesn't have fear.

There have been many cases of there being witches stronger Erika, Ange and the rest (excluding Featherine) whom have not made a single appearance, concluding it refers to Beato with no trustworthy evidence is just bias towards the downgrading of the verse

Bernkastel is stated to be below Lambdadelta several times and she likely would have lost their fight if not for Feath's intervening

I saw a thread by someone far more knowledgeable than me which showed apparently that the Bernkastel fighting Lambda was not her true self (from what I understood, I could be wrong so don’t come at me)

But I think it is kind of a strecth to put others witches on Featherine's (self-insert?) level based on this. The Senate are the strongest witches in existence, and "hardly different from gods and creators", but they are still witches, which means they are still in the ladder.

The senate are like an “organization” for powerful witches, Featherine might be a part of them but it doesn’t mean she isn’t above the witches domain, it just proves she is not a creator

Since Lambdadelta, a witch of the Senate, still thinks she has a long way to go before reaching the end of the ladder, the Senate not being at the end of it looks more logic

or it just shows that not every senate witch is equal to each other, it just supports that the “Senate” are a group of witches.

Tea Party used seems to have Feath writing and talking to someone which would be another Creator

as we’ve seen before, Lambda “interacted” with the “audience” aka it’s by telling us to vote her for the popularity poll, it could just be another case of Featherine “interacting with the audience”

 

[MrKerf]

Interesting. Neutral for now.

 

[ThanatosX]

OP seems to make sense, but I will wait for the input of other knowledgeable members.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Do we have any kind of proof for that?

They translate the same terms in different ways and seems to have a different level of translation but that's mainly me guessing from experience.

we also saw Erika in ep 8 saying that gods and creator are not the same

https://i.gyazo.com/94d5d0b8717413ceb985c5584c931373.png

but she also never said they are the same, since “Creators and gods” it makes the implication that they are 2 different things

I'm not saying they are the same, I'm saying she isn't using anything that would point toward Creator being especially singular in comparison to Gods.

Featherine was never called a creato r(further proved by Last note), what it said was that she writes about herself while others are being written by maybe many writers, witches themselves can be writers in the sense of creating stories in carboxes and gameboards

Writers = Creators and Ryushiki07 flat out says "she became a writer". Also the scans I sent litteraly says she's one.

Also no, witches aren't writers, as shown by Ryushiki07 making a difference between the two in the Q&As presented and going into details regarding that.

why do that when Featherine is stated to look down upon the witche’s domain from an even higher world?

https://i.gyazo.com/230c805d7e1b343474bd6f10218dc657.png

I'm not saying she isn't above the Witch World; just that the ladder isn't a witch world thing but an all-of-existence thing.

Never said she was a creator

You can't say "no he didn't" when the proof is litteraly in bold.

Not only did he flat out said she was, but the one asking the questions litteraly ask about Creators because Ryushiki07 just explained she was one.

There have been many cases of there being witches stronger Erika, Ange and the rest (excluding Featherine) whom have not made a single appearance, concluding it refers to Beato with no trustworthy evidence is just bias towards the downgrading of the verse

It doesn't talk about Erika at all.... It refers to Beato because this entire part of the Memoirs is about Lambda meeting her and talking about her.

I saw a thread by someone far more knowledgeable than me which showed apparently that the Bernkastel fighting Lambda was not her true self (from what I understood, I could be wrong so don’t come at me)

The senate are like an “organization” for powerful witches, Featherine might be a part of them but it doesn’t mean she isn’t above the witches domain, it just proves she is not a creator.

My point isn't that Featherine isn't above the Witch Domain. Please read the argument correctly.

or it just shows that not every senate witch is equal to each other, it just supports that the “Senate” are a group of witches.

Which is what I said. And these witches aren't Creators + still on the ladder. I never claimed that the Senate witches were equal or not a group of witches.

as we’ve seen before, Lambda “interacted” with the “audience” aka it’s by telling us to vote her for the popularity poll, it could just be another case of Featherine “interacting with the audience”

It's clearly someone talking to her so it's unlikely. But it's really a minor thing.

I would recommand that you read the OP again, because you seem to have missed a lot of context there, based on "Ryushiki07 never said that" despite showing him say it and explaining it for those who may not know the series well enough or talking about Erika in something unrelated to her.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

May as well give my two cents here, I suppose. Like Ovy up there, I don't particularly care about the whole ordeal with The Creator, and added onto that, I don't feel like arguing about moonrunes, so, I'll gloss over that part, mostly.

In this english translation, Lambdadelta says that all beings can be put between two extremes, the extremes being the lowest part of the Human Domain, and the highest being the "Kingdom of God", with the infinite ladder being for everything in between, nowhere does it says that it is restricted to the Witch Domain, just that they are around "the middle". While the Witch world is part of that infinite ladder, the opposite doesn't have to be true.

In this context, it very much does, since what Lambda is saying is essentially that the Domain of the Witches encompasses anything that falls in-between the two extremes of the world while not belonging to either of them, hence her view being that beings like her are a middle ground between Mortal and Creator: They don't create fate, but they do have the ability to play around with it as they like.

Although, just out of curiosity, how exactly do we treat this scan, which I often see being used to prove the different domains are separate hierarchies? I really can't be bothered to debate moonrunes, like i said above, so I'll likely give you the benefit of the doubt whatever your answer is, in any case.

In addition to that, you can't say that Lambda didn't know about Featherine's study or about anything outside the Witch Domain either, since she's the one who litteraly gave us the information about it for the very first time, meaning she knows about it all too well, and yet still think this ladder is for all of existence and not just her domain.

While, as you mentioned above, the manga and the Visual Novel are largely equally canon, they do have slightly different takes on the cosmology in regards to where Featherine resides, exactly. For instance, in the VN, her study is stated to exist on a plane above the World of Witches in Episode 6, while in the manga adaptation, that statement is omitted (As far as I am aware, anyway), and the last chapter later establishes it to be a part of the "witch side."

Given that, there is ground to treat them separately on that front, and so this loops back to what Ovy brought up up there, namely the fact that the VN has Featherine being described by a third-person omniscient narrator, and not by Lambda's internal monologue. I do admit that the manga certainly favors your interpretation more, though, so I guess this is a matter of choosing between versions as well.

The part that was translated as "step into" is 踏み込み which does mean that, but just in a "to get into" way. It isn't talking about any kind of layers, and is just another way of saying "I think she's starting to become a witch of your caliber / of the same level as you". There's no cosmological implication regarding this sentence, making the thing already pretty shaky

There is, because the statement in question is referring to Beatrice, who we already know is constantly going through a process of internal evolution throughout the Sea of Fragments because of the nature of her Endless Magic, so much that Lambda compares it to someone jumping off a ladder while using a parasol to slow down the fall. Beatrice having already surpassed Witches at the core of her existence while simultaneously being a Witch also mirrors Yasu internally surpassing humanity and ascending to witchdom in spite of being physically human herself, so it's not like there is no in-verse precedent for that interpretation, either.

"Voyagers journey having no endpoint". I don't think there's a need to get the japanese on this one. Featherine was a Voyager and ended as Creator per Ryushiki07's words (see the part using the interview) so it's just flowery language.

I don't see much of a need to dismiss that as flowery language. On its own, it can easily be interpreted as saying that the Kingdom of God is outside of the hierarchy entirely, and not simply a topmost part of it, which does make sense if one takes into account that Creators are described as not even having an ontological "ground" under their feet by virtue of having long detached themselves from all limitations inherent to lower worlds.

Besides, it should be mentionned that what we were doing is saying that somehow, Bern and Lambda already finished ascending this ladder and were in fact on the same level as Featherine's manifestation, which makes no sense.

That's not really the case, actually. The reasoning behind the second key of the Voyagers is rooted more in Higurashi than Umineko proper, if anything: In fact, a core theme of When They Cry as a whole is that will and determination can shape the future and change reality, to the point that this principle is described as being "the law of the world" in Matsuribayashi-hen, and Lambdadelta herself is stated to be its embodiment, hence why the law itself is the root and source of her magic (To the extent it's directly identified as being "her power" more than once), and why Takano being able to partake in it is represented as her receiving Lambdadelta's blessing.

Granted, I do agree that the profiles are a bit misleading as it stands. Lambda's case, at least, isn't exactly a "true form" so much as an universal concept that she just so happens to be the physical embodiment of. If I were to link it to anything, I'd say it's more like she is the Type 2 Abstract of that law, and not the law itself being some higher self of hers. Moreover, this opens up the question of whether this characteristic applies to Voyagers as a whole or just to Lambda in specific, as well.

 

[CrystalValley]

not an expert, but i think ovy debunks everything with his first post quite well, so i'm against it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Againts FRA

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, I'll answer Ultima's points in some days since it's night rn and moving is as soon as I wake up.

But just to precise one thing or two: the translation you use is litteraly saying in the note that it isn't actually saying Witch but "meta".

And the Voyagers journey having no endpoint, besides being nowhere enough to imagine an entire infinite layered hierarchy from it is just factually wrong, since it does have an endpoint.
Also even taking your interpretation into account, it wouldn't be enough to get a whole new 1-A+ hierarchy, and would just be proof of the Creators being above the infinite ladder.

Also it is way too much guesswork overall to be anything reliable. "It may mean there's layers" and "it may mean there's infinite layers" with no actual backup is exactly what makes our info for stuff above Witch Domain headcanons.