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Weiss vs Garou (Two white haired teens fight one another)

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Spinoirr said:
I like everyone to remember this Garou isn't as skilled as he is later on as this is his frist key
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Honestly Garous intelligence rating also needs a upgrade just like Weiss, split up his intelligent section more as it makes it seem like Garou is as skilled as he is up until he becomes a full on Monster with his perfect fist martial arts sense the BoS, which isn't true as he becomes more skilled as the series goes on via copying more and more moves as the series progresses
 
@WeeklyBattles Them not trying to kill each other doesn’t mean anything when the fight was determined by who’s Aura lasts the longest, so Weiss using that at the end of the fight doesn’t help her. Yeah, freezing him which won’t stop him forever as he can just muscle through the ice with the superior AP and LS. Also Weiss learning to fight since she was a kid means nothing in terms of a skill feat when she’s easily distracted by others as shown when Ruby cheering her on during the boar fight was enough to mess with her concentration, also Garou was trained by a martial arts master and literally adapts and evolves his skills to the point he rivals the skills of other S rank heroes in a short timeframe.

First off you haven’t proven it lasts as long as she likes, second off Garou’s adaptation will just let him react and counter Weiss’ strikes as time goes on so this isn’t going to help her in the long run. Forcefield can be broken by superior AP, speed amp means nothing to a guy with precognition/Analytical prediction, and being sent flying away means nothing when she doesn’t have the AP to oneshot him.

I have, you just refuse to acknowledge any of them that has nothing to do with numbers.
 
Spinoirr said:
I like everyone to remember this Garou isn't as skilled as he is later on as this is his frist key
Click to expand...
Eh? While his mastery of the WSRF isn't as refined as later keys his skill level and technique copying are pretty much the same, its not like he suddenly got more "skilled" he just learned and perfected new techniques.
 
Same thing that I have said in the Mash thread
Simply because Garou is still able to do the same things when human doesn't mean he is able to do them to the same extent as when a monster, and don't even dream of using Cosmic Garou. That doesn't even make sense, it's like saying that because Mash has been able to control his muscles and body since the first arc he's able to do it to the same extent he did in the last arc. Thats just a não, no, negative, nonpositive, nono. Yes, he can copy, but as good as his monster state or ******* cosmic mode and after all his battles and hardwork? Come on, that's just silly. His copying skills are clearly improved throughout the story, since his First of Following Water was pathetic at first when compared to Bang's even after training with him for years and years, and just in his monster form he showed to have reached Bang's level And even so he showed failures, what a bozo fr fr.
Click to expand...
 
That doesn't invalidate anything I said, later Garou keys hone in his mastery of WSRF and grant him new techniques but that doesn't change his inherent skill level and prodigy status.

Experience means jack shit if not backed up with actual skill feats

Anyway as I said Genos is a better matchup because it seems more even overall
 
Theglassman12 said:
@WeeklyBattles Them not trying to kill each other doesn’t mean anything when the fight was determined by who’s Aura lasts the longest, so Weiss using that at the end of the fight doesn’t help her. Yeah, freezing him which won’t stop him forever as he can just muscle through the ice with the superior AP and LS. Also Weiss learning to fight since she was a kid means nothing in terms of a skill feat when she’s easily distracted by others as shown when Ruby cheering her on during the boar fight was enough to mess with her concentration, also Garou was trained by a martial arts master and literally adapts and evolves his skills to the point he rivals the skills of other S rank heroes in a short timeframe.
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Weiss was trained by the best fighters in Atlas, and youre using feats from after this key to argue his skill lol
Theglassman12 said:
First off you haven’t proven it lasts as long as she likes, second off Garou’s adaptation will just let him react and counter Weiss’ strikes as time goes on so this isn’t going to help her in the long run. Forcefield can be broken by superior AP, speed amp means nothing to a guy with precognition/Analytical prediction, and being sent flying away means nothing when she doesn’t have the AP to oneshot him.
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She doesnt need the AP to oneshot him when he doesnt have the regen in this key to withstand his body being turned to a pile of shattered ice
Theglassman12 said:
I have, you just refuse to acknowledge any of them that has nothing to do with numbers.
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Such as?
 
Recon1511 said:
That doesn't invalidate anything I said, later Garou keys hone in his mastery of WSRF and grant him new techniques but that doesn't change his inherent skill level and prodigy status.

Experience means jack shit if not backed up with actual skill feats
Click to expand...
Weiss' experience is in fact backed up by actual skill feats.

At the bottom of the skill chain is aura users as a whole. While every living being in RWBY technically has Aura, actually being able to utilize it for things such as defense, regen, and senses requires years of training and a high enough degree of martial skill (and yes you actually need martial skill for it) that only a small percentage of the population of the entire planet ever become skilled enough to utilize their aura. Of that small percentage, an even smaller percentage ever become skilled enough to manifest/control a Semblance (yes semblances are also skill-based). To reach this small percentage comes to the second half of the bottom of the chain: Almost every character worth their salt in RWBY has spent their entire life training in combat and can fight hordes of Grimm with little issue (Almost because Jaune exists). The entirety of the main cast of RWBY was initially enrolled at Beacon Academy, one of the most prestigious combat schools in the world, with almost everyone who was accepted there having been trained for almost their entire life to fight monsters, and each one that was not professionally trained requiring a skill display overseen by Ozpin, who has the composite skill of several thousand professional huntsmen that he accumulated over his immortal lifetime. Thats the baseline for skill in the verse.

Before the Beacon Arc Ruby had been personally trained by her uncle Qrow in combat and as a result she was noted as always excelling above her peers in combat training. At the start of the series Ruby was at a level of skill that even though she was two years away from being eligible to join Beacon she was admitted due her combat prowess impressing Ozpin, with him noting that she was already a master at wielding one of the most dangerous weapons ever designed. In combat Ruby is capable of taking on entire hordes of Grimm on her own and walking away without a scratch and utilizing the different functionalities of the Crescent Rose, such as the massive recoil from the rifle aspect of the weapon and the weapon's transformative capabilities, in tandem with each other and her Semblance in order to maintain an edge over her opponent. Basically every named character is around this level of skill in the early seasons. Now for Velvet. Velvet is able to perfectly and instantly mimic the exact moves that she observes other people use in combat as well as utilize multiple different fighting styles simultaneously, both armed and unarmed. Thanks to Anesidora, Velvet is also able to copy fighting styles that utilize weapons, and she is able to wield the weapons that she copies just as effectively as their original user. To date that we know of, Velvet is able to simultaneously utilize the fighting styles and weapons of Ruby Rose, Yang Xiao Long, Weiss Schnee, Blake Belladonna, Nora Valkyrie, Sun Wukong, Penny Polendina, Coco Adel, Peter Port, Reese Chloris, Fox Alistar, Vega Bleu, Yatsuhashi Daichi, Russel Thrush, Roy Stallion, Neptune Vasilias, Brawnz Ni, Bartholomew Oobleck, Flynt Coal, Edward Caspian, and Scarlet David. Of note, every person listed spent their entire lives training in combat and several of them are professional huntsmen with decades of combat experience.

Moving up the chain we have Nebula Violette, who not only outmatched Velvet in a 1v1 test of martial arts skill, but was directly stated to be more skilled than Velvet in combat despite Velvet mixing numerous fighting styles to try to throw her off in their fight. Above her is Pyrrha Nikos, the skill god of the Beacon Arc. Pyrrha is one of the most skilled students at Beacon Academy, having won every combat tournament she has entered since she was a pre-teen due to both her mastery of combat and mastery of her semblance, being able to apply it in combat completely undetected and having done so in almost every fight she's been in for over a decade, doing so with such skill and precision that she has lead many to believe she is untouchable and invincible as no one has been able to even land a blow on her in her combat career. Even without her semblance she has shown the ability to quickly and easily adapt to her combat situation and analyze her opponents while fighting and changing tactics to suit the situation she is in. She has shown extreme accuracy, being able to hit moving targets from hundreds of meters away and strike vital weak points on an opponent mid-combat both with and without the aid of her semblance. She is also highly skilled at using her weapon's multiple forms in combat, being able to switch between forms several times in rapid succession to both deliver rapid attacks and counter others simultaneously.

Then theres Mercury. Mercury is a veritable master of close combat, having spent his entire life training in pure martial combat to make up for his Semblance being stolen by his father. He is shown to be a very acrobatic and agile fighter who relies upon quickly overpowering his opponent with complex kicks that imply a near-mastery of martial arts that resemble Tae-Kwon-Do. He is also capable of a break-dancing style, similar to Capoeira, and makes use of Muay Thai as well. Despite his focus on kicks, Mercury also uses his hands to grapple, block or redirect enemy attacks. His experience and skill are aggressive and effective enough to drive even fighters of a high caliber, like Pyrrha, into a defensive position, with Word of God confirming that Mercury would defeat her if he fought her seriously. Due to his fighting style, Mercury relies on his swift and quick reflexes to counter and block his opponent's attacks as first demonstrated during his fight with Yang Xiao Long, altering the course of her punches and using his footwork to raise her fists and kick underneath or around her attacks. Despite the presumed awkwardness of his weapon's ranged capabilities he is a skilled marksman, able to shoot a phone out of a person's hand from a good distance away, and is proficient at using the many different forms of projectiles at his disposal to keep his opponents off balance. Mercury is also known to be observant, tactical, and analytical, able to notice and deduce the capabilities and limits of Pyrrha's Polarity Semblance after she uses it once during their brief fight, despite Pyrrha using it extremely subtly in combat and having spent her entire life honing her ability to hide her Semblance and its mechanics from her opponents and the general public.

This is where this key of Weiss sits in terms of skill
 
WeeklyBattles said:
That is a heavily condensed, significantly simplified, and currently incomplete version of it yes lol

Basically thats the copypasta we have on hand at the moment that we use as a reference while we write up the full explanation blog
Click to expand...
We need that blog with scans and everything and the whole nine yards
 
WeeklyBattles said:
You are significantly underestimating Weiss in this regard. Weiss even in her earlier keys was capable of matching the best martial artists in the world, who themselves have feats comparable to Garou's,
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I'm sorry but that first part is completely untrue. Although Weiss definetely has a lot of combat experience fighting opponents with various weapons, she has never been shown fighting opponents who soley rely on hand on hand combat, much less fight anyone confirmed in story to be a martial arts master outside of proving themselves capable in combat. Garou on the other hand was stated to be one of Bang's greatest disciples prior to his removal from the dojo, meaning he should be in similar skill to the him, and was capable of defeating the likes of Tanktop Vegetarian, who was the second in command of the Tank Topper Army, a group comprised of heroes soley devoted to hand to hand combat.

With all that being said, Weiss isn't truly perpared to deal with someone as skilled like Garou, and it should also be taken into account that Garou can disarm Weiss of her weapon, which would leave herself defensless outside of her standard glyphs and summons.
WeeklyBattles said:
Weiss' acrobatics are not fueled by her semblance, its just something she can do naturally. Also, pressure points wont work as long as Weiss' aura is up.
Click to expand...
She still relies on her semblance a lot for her acrobatics. But I will agree with the second part.
WeeklyBattles said:
I mean, even if he gets past both of those Weiss still has multiple ways to freeze him in CQC, but thats a big IF as Weiss' glyphs dont have any tells, theres no projectiles to look out for, they just appear.
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Yet Garou is capable of Instinctive Reaction thanks to his mastery of the Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist. Also your statement is not entirely untrue as Glyphs do take a small amount of time to appear as seen in the Nevermore Grimm fight, and can only be made one at a time (though the are fast enough for it to appear instantaneous). Garou can dodge the glyphs.
WeeklyBattles said:
I mean, pain tolerance is great and all but its not going to save him from having his body frozen inside and out and then shattered.
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Fair enough, but since Wiess isn't bloodlusted, its unlikely she will use it instantly to win the fight, nor is it really in character for her to use it on human beings. I could see her using it to try and cripple Garou though once she realises Garou's not holding back.
WeeklyBattles said:
I can post the RWBY skill scaling chain if you'd like, but friendly reminder that people near Weiss' level have been agreed to be above Garou in terms of skill in threads here before. Garou's CQC skill alone is not enough to win him this fight, and Weiss uses everything in her arsenal at close range as well as long range, just because Garou can get close to her doesnt mean she just stops being able to use those abilities.
Click to expand...
Garou himself also has a skill chain. Garou downscales from his master Bang, who is a Master Martial Artist himself and was previously considered the 3rd Best hero in the Hero Association, placing him above the likes of other fighters such as Metal Bat, Superalloy Darkshine, Atomic Samurai, Puri-Puri Prisoner and Tanktop Master. Garou himself also defeated a number of heroes before his transformation into a monster began such as the Previously mentioned Tanktop Vegetarian, as well as contending with S ranked heroes such as Tanktop Master and Metal Bat, only struggling with the latter due to other being physically superior.

To be fair, Garou did lose to his former master Bang, but there are some factors to consider beforehand
  • He had been previously fighting other heroes and was not fighting at full stamina.
  • He was also extremely weakened due to fighting other heroes such Genos moments prior, a group of other heroes whom he struggled with at first but eventually overcame, and Metal Bat and Watchdog Man.
  • He also got wacked by Saitama Lmao, it left him still heavily injured by the time he woke up
Given that most of Garou's victories were done while in a weakened state from many prior battles and with severe injuries, I believe that Garou at his peak will Absolutely decimate someone like Weiss.

On regarding skill however, Weiss skills also demonstrate an obvious weakness: if she manages to lose her sword, she will not only be severly handicapped when it comes to melee, but she also loses access to her dust powered glyphs due to said dust being held in her weapon. Given that Garou has superior LS to Weiss (Class G vs Class M), Garou could easily take the weapon away from her if he managed to get in close.
 
FireSwordHero said:
I'm sorry but that first part is completely untrue. Although Weiss definetely has a lot of combat experience fighting opponents with various weapons, she has never been shown fighting opponents who soley rely on hand on hand combat, much less fight anyone confirmed in story to be a martial arts master outside of proving themselves capable in combat. Garou on the other hand was stated to be one of Bang's greatest disciples prior to his removal from the dojo, meaning he should be in similar skill to the him, and was capable of defeating the likes of Tanktop Vegetarian, who was the second in command of the Tank Topper Army, a group comprised of heroes soley devoted to hand to hand combat.
Click to expand...
My guy, everyone that Weiss has fought in the series is a world class fighter, Weiss has absolutely fought people on that level before.
FireSwordHero said:
With all that being said, Weiss isn't truly perpared to deal with someone as skilled like Garou, and it should also be taken into account that Garou can disarm Weiss of her weapon, which would leave herself defensless outside of her standard glyphs and summons.
Click to expand...
Touching her weapon gets him frozen solid as i have explained above.
FireSwordHero said:
Yet Garou is capable of Instinctive Reaction thanks to his mastery of the Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist. Also your statement is not entirely untrue as Glyphs do take a small amount of time to appear as seen in the Nevermore Grimm fight, and can only be made one at a time (though the are fast enough for it to appear instantaneous). Garou can dodge the glyphs.
Click to expand...
Bro what show have you been watching, im not sure if youve seen Weiss' fights ever lol. Her glyphs appear instantaneously, and she can make dozens at once. There is nothing for Garou to dodge, they instantly appear on whatever she wants them to, theyre not dodgeable projectiles.
FireSwordHero said:
Garou himself also has a skill chain. Garou downscales from his master Bang, who is a Master Martial Artist himself and was previously considered the 3rd Best hero in the Hero Association, placing him above the likes of other fighters such as Metal Bat, Superalloy Darkshine, Atomic Samurai, Puri-Puri Prisoner and Tanktop Master. Garou himself also defeated a number of heroes before his transformation into a monster began such as the Previously mentioned Tanktop Vegetarian, as well as contending with S ranked heroes such as Tanktop Master and Metal Bat, only struggling with the latter due to other being physically superior.

To be fair, Garou did lose to his former master Bang, but there are some factors to consider beforehand
  • He had been previously fighting other heroes and was not fighting at full stamina.
  • He was also extremely weakened due to fighting other heroes such Genos moments prior, a group of other heroes whom he struggled with at first but eventually overcame, and Metal Bat and Watchdog Man.
  • He also got wacked by Saitama Lmao, it left him still heavily injured by the time he woke up
Given that most of Garou's victories were done while in a weakened state from many prior battles and with severe injuries, I believe that Garou at his peak will Absolutely decimate someone like Weiss.
Click to expand...
It should also be noted that Garou had prior knowledge on all of these people due to having a guidebook that listed all of their capabilities, techniques, and weaknesses, something he does not have against Weiss.
FireSwordHero said:
On regarding skill however, Weiss skills also demonstrate an obvious weakness: if she manages to lose her sword, she will not only be severly handicapped when it comes to melee, but she also loses access to her dust powered glyphs due to said dust being held in her weapon. Given that Garou has superior LS to Weiss (Class G vs Class M), Garou could easily take the weapon away from her if he managed to get in close.
Click to expand...
As previously stated, if he tries to take her sword he gets frozen, but on top of that, Weiss' glyphs are not Dust fueled, they are her semblance, she does not need her sword to make Glyphs.
 
Voting Weiss.

I will be the first to admit I'm not too knowledgeable on OP, but the arguments I've seen haven't been terribly convincing (No offense). I'm sure Garou is a very skilled and talented fighter, but I don't see anything that would really save him from being frozen every time he get's hit by most of her attacks or makes any form of contact with her blade, and even if he breaks out of being Frozen, Weiss can use various other technique's and abilities, of note is using Gravity Dust to create Anti-Gravity Glyph's, or using Time Dilation on herself to give herself a speed amp. Granted, Garou could hypothetically grow faster than her, but I imagine that by the time Weiss uses Time Dilation, she wouldn't really be messing around anymore, and would likely become willing to complete freeze him from the Inside-Out. From what I see, Weiss has blatant advantages in Manuverability and Versatility via her Glyphs, she has a Pseudo Health Bar via her Aura which can tank certain hits and negate Pressure Point Attacks, and she has a number of way's to restrict Garou with varying degree's of it being in character. Garou's best argument's seem to be Fear Manip (Which I honestly can't think of a counter against), Superior AP (Which while impressive, would first require him to get close enough to hit Weiss, as well as hit her hard enough to go through her Aura), and better Skill, which from what I see, They both personally have convincing arguments.

Most of these Arguments I see have devolved into Garou rushing down Weiss and attacking her, but if that's his first move, I feel Weiss would take the win more often then not. It's not out of character for her to Freeze Garou, and if it becomes apparent that merely freezing him is proving ineffective, then she can easily resort to one of her other wincons. She can also heal herself to a extent, and can summon her various summon's to fight Garou and get a good read on him and his threat without actually engaging. I'm afraid I simply find that Weiss has way more in her tool kit, and Garou's strategy of "Get Close and Hit her Hard" isn't very convincing in comparison to Weiss's potential gameplans. One has the advantage of Versatility and Options, the other doesn't seem to have the same luxury.

All in All, I find Weiss simply has far more options to hold off or deal with Garou, while Garou is kind of lacking in options.
 
TheKingStrategist13 said:
Voting Weiss.

I will be the first to admit I'm not too knowledgeable on OP, but the arguments I've seen haven't been terribly convincing (No offense). I'm sure Garou is a very skilled and talented fighter, but I don't see anything that would really save him from being frozen every time he get's hit by most of her attacks or makes any form of contact with her blade, and even if he breaks out of being Frozen, Weiss can use various other technique's and abilities, of note is using Gravity Dust to create Anti-Gravity Glyph's, or using Time Dilation on herself to give herself a speed amp. Granted, Garou could hypothetically grow faster than her, but I imagine that by the time Weiss uses Time Dilation, she wouldn't really be messing around anymore, and would likely become willing to complete freeze him from the Inside-Out. From what I see, Weiss has blatant advantages in Manuverability and Versatility via her Glyphs, she has a Pseudo Health Bar via her Aura which can tank certain hits and negate Pressure Point Attacks, and she has a number of way's to restrict Garou with varying degree's of it being in character. Garou's best argument's seem to be Fear Manip (Which I honestly can't think of a counter against), Superior AP (Which while impressive, would first require him to get close enough to hit Weiss, as well as hit her hard enough to go through her Aura), and better Skill, which from what I see, They both personally have convincing arguments.

Most of these Arguments I see have devolved into Garou rushing down Weiss and attacking her, but if that's his first move, I feel Weiss would take the win more often then not. It's not out of character for her to Freeze Garou, and if it becomes apparent that merely freezing him is proving ineffective, then she can easily resort to one of her other wincons. She can also heal herself to a extent, and can summon her various summon's to fight Garou and get a good read on him and his threat without actually engaging. I'm afraid I simply find that Weiss has way more in her tool kit, and Garou's strategy of "Get Close and Hit her Hard" isn't very convincing in comparison to Weiss's potential gameplans. One has the advantage of Versatility and Options, the other doesn't seem to have the same luxury.

All in All, I find Weiss simply has far more options to hold off or deal with Garou, while Garou is kind of lacking in options.
Click to expand...
Weiss doesn't exclusively camp people out in character until Atlas against Marrow. Before Atlas she does still use her regular swordplay

Issue with this is if she gets close a single time Garou turns her into ground beef

Her summons are useless since all of them use CQC and Garou tears them a new orfice or just dodges them, her CC isn't enough to keep Garou down long enough before his RE starts coming into play, and her elemental manip doesn't ignore dura so she can't freeze him from the inside out.

Garou is also MUCH smarter than Weiss and has massively sperior analytical prediction, so anything Weiss uses on him isn't going to work twice since he's gonna memorize every tiny muscle movement Weiss uses to initiate any of her attacks and dodge accordingly

The only way Weiss can win is if she uses Time Dilation on herself constantly but that's not in character plus Garou can eventually outgrow even this. Garou getting close a single time is much more likely than Weiss wearing him down with range CC spam.
 
Voting inconclusive.

Even saying they are equal in skill, Weiss lacks analytical prediction and information analysis and thus she would not be able to keep up with Garou regardless.

If he lands a single hit on her, she's dead.

Her win-con is apparently doing some OOC stuff. Which, yeah, to be fair anti gravity or internal freezing are instant kills, but I can't at this moment say that they are any more or less likely than Garou just hitting her a single time, based on the arguments.

Incon.
 
Phoenks said:
Voting inconclusive.

Even saying they are equal in skill, Weiss lacks analytical prediction and information analysis and thus she would not be able to keep up with Garou regardless.

If he lands a single hit on her, she's dead.

Her win-con is apparently doing some OOC stuff. Which, yeah, to be fair anti gravity or internal freezing are instant kills, but I can't at this moment say that they are any more or less likely than Garou just hitting her a single time, based on the arguments.

Incon.
Click to expand...
They are nowhere near equal in skill or experience

She also doens't have internal freezing
 
@WeeklyBattles For someone trained by the best fighters in Atlas she sure sucks at concentrating in a fight like when Ruby distracted her during the boar fight or when she leaves herself exposed in Volume 5 to try and summon.

How funny that I don’t see durability negation anywhere on her page, let alone any scans to remotely imply she can do that to someone far stronger than her.

How about you read my posts instead of ignoring them?
 
@Phoenks She literally does not have internal freezing, it’s just normal ice powers she does plus she’s never shown doing anything like this against someone stronger than her.
 
Recon1511 said:
I think you guys should remember that Garou doesn't kill humans in character either, he does however go for brutal incap
Click to expand...
Meanwhile Weiss would assume Garou has a aura that protects him from attacks and temperature attacks
 
Anyway idc anymore, call me if you guys are using Iaian in a versus match against a RWBY character or something, his profile is actually useable now byebye
 
@Spinoirr so at the end of a fight, that doesn’t tell me she uses it right off the bat, to which she just gets overwhelmed by the AP difference.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Phoenks She literally does not have internal freezing, it’s just normal ice powers she does plus she’s never shown doing anything like this against someone stronger than her.
Click to expand...
My guy, the power to freeze people internally is quite literally listed on her page

"Ice: Weiss can utilize her Glyphs to manipulate what shape her ice will take. She can launch towards a foe using a circling motion of Myrtenaster's blade, send out a wave or field of ice from the blade to trap or immobilizing a foe, augment projectile attacks so that they explode into ice crystals on impact, create large barriers of ice, ice daggers, giant ice swords, and can even use her Glyphs to manipulate ice in her surroundings. As of Volume 6, Weiss can use ice Glyphs directly on her opponent, using them to freeze their body itself so thoroughly that attacking it causes them to physically shatter. "
 
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