We Need to Talk About the Chaos Gods

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not keys, just allowing for multiple interpretations in the AP description.

Stuff like:

At least Hyperverse level (Immeasurably above both the complete C'tan, and the Aeldari Pantheon), likely High Hyperverse level (Controls the majority of the Warp, which has been described as an infinitely dimensional realm of thought and metaphor, with even that not even beginning encompass the full extent of the Immaterium, being merely a reflection formed by the subjective perception of mortal beings), possibly Outerverse level (The deepest, most abstract portion of the Warp has been described as "dimensionless", rendering the existence of dimensions meaningless, and as a featureless void of pure nothingness)

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Matt

Ah.

I'm not sure if "possibly" or "likely" is more appropriate, in this case, but I'll let you decide it.

What would this do with characters like Skarbrand and Kairos?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They wouldn't get 1-A scaling, only High 1-B. The 1-A should be reserved to the full-extent of what the Chaos Gods are, i.e, barely sentient abstract concepts, and not beings with clearly defined forms and intents. All the stuff about Skarbrand attacking Khorne, and Kairos and Tzeentch interacting is pure metaphor, or a way for lesser beings to understand an abstraction.

 

[The_Everlasting]

So 1-A is only for the Chaos Gods, the Emperor and Ynnead, yes?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

maaaaybe?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, just to hammer the point about how malleable the Warp truly is, there was this one time where a Space Marine died and perceived it as a literal Heaven of light, clouds, and singing cherubs:

Cassian laid beneath a pool of shadows. There was no sound, no sensation, no pain. His sense of self drifted, and for a time he felt nothing but a strange kind of peace.
Something moved. The Figure, tall and powerful.
Cassian saw for a moment the grotesque mass of the Death Guard lord, and he felt a shudder of panic grip him. Yet the hand was gentle, and the face that looked down on him was regal and beatific. A halo of light shimmered around It, and in his mind Cassian heard the distant voices of angelic quires swell.
"Lieutenant Cassian." Said the Figure, and His voice was as firm and reassuring as bedrock.
"... Em... Peror?" Asked Cassian, his voice little more than a croak.
The Figure smiled.
"Once. Almost, for my sins... Lieutenant, is your duty done?"
Part of Cassian wanted to nod. To say yes. That he had given everything: His men, his comrades, his life. Instead, he shook his head in a single, jerky motion.
"Only... In death... Does duty... End."
The Figure's smile vanished, replaced by something sterner, tinged with sorrow and pride. Cassian hoped never to forget the power of that gaze.
"Very well, Lieutenant." Said the Figure.
Slowly, He replaced the shroud over Cassian's face, and as He did so, darkness closed in once more.
- Crusade

 

[EliminatorVenom]

This is an incredible discussion.

I'm going to re-read it a few times before really having an opinion here, but for now I'm leaning towards a "possibly 1-A" rating.

 

[Wokistan]

Do gork and mork qualify for possibly 1A, or is them being stronger than chaos not considered correct?

 

[DMUA]

99.99999999999999999999999999999999% sure that's a hyperbole.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They are not stronger than Chaos, the only sources for such claims are in-universe Ork Mythology, which is biased as all hell.

All objective, out-of-universe sources, treat Chaos as the most powerful thing in Warhammer.

Until Ynnead came and skullfucked the whole scaling

 

[Phoenix821]

What about Malal?

 

[Holyhotsauce]

I mean, in one of the Ork books it depicts Gork N' Mork beating the crap out of Nurgle and then eating him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This never happened for obvious reasons.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is something The Everlasting suggested:

At least 1-C, possibly High 1-B: Hive Mind.

1-B: C'tan, most Eldar Gods.

At least 1-B, possibly High 1-B: Vaul, the Nightbringer.

At least 1-B, likely High 1-B: Asuryan, Khaine, Gork n' Mork, Skarbrand, Kairos.

At least 1-B, likely High 1-B, possibly 1-A: The Chaos Gods, the Emperor.

1-A: Complete Ynnead.

I think it needs some ironing out but it's a start.

 

[Lightbuster30]

This is something The Everlasting suggested:

At least 1-C, possibly High 1-B: Hive Mind.

1-B: C'tan, most Eldar Gods.

At least 1-B, possibly High 1-B: Vaul, the Nightbringer.

At least 1-B, likely High 1-B: Asuryan, Khaine, Gork n' Mork, Skarbrand, Kairos.

At least 1-B, likely High 1-B, possibly 1-A: The Chaos Gods, the Emperor.

1-A: Complete Ynnead.

I think it needs some ironing out but it's a start.

k
What about beings like Void Dragon, who pose a threat to the Chaos Gods?

 

[DMUA]

Part of the C'tan.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BTW,there is someone who said this about this thread:

"The quotes used by Matthew and Azathoth seem to implied a 1-B to High 1-B to me as I did thoroughly invest my time into multiverse theories. It seems there is evidence to suggest there is a 1-B to High 1-B depending on the context. However, I am quite uncertain about 1-A complete Ynnead as transcending a 1-B to High 1-B realm doesn't necessarily mean he should be 1-A unless he is explicitly been mentioned to transcend the said hyperverse and outside of it too"

How's about that,Mashu,Azzy?

 

[Aeyu]

@Matt

I think that's honestly good, but would require better descriptions than what is currently employed on the profiles.

@Veloxt

It's not just transcending that realm that would necessitate a 1-A rating.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mmm.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Wow. Possibly 1-A WH.

What a time to be on the Wiki.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hey everyone. Sorry for dropping out for a lot longer than expected. I'm violently ill at the moment and just barely getting better, so you have that to thank.

Anyway...

@Matt

I think that mostly looks good, but I'm not sure if the 1-B is necessary for the Chaos Gods, considering the most explicit High 1-B quotes are about something that is undoubtedly their domain as opposed to something like Ynnead's. The rest mostly looks like a good start. I can definitely agree with "weaker" C'tan like the Deceiver just being flat 1-B.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Azzy

Don't stress yourself; just focus on getting better. Threads can always wait.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I feel like the Hive Mind should lose the High 1-B, since it's explicitly not on the level of the Chaos Gods.

Aside from that, Vaul and the Nightbringer I feel are the main Tier 1s that are tricky to tier, since they fight Khaine but would otherwise be lumped under the 1-B section.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Assalt

Greatly appreciated. Though thankfully, most things here have been worked out, and we're just trying to finalize placements, which isn't too hard.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ever

Agreed. I feel the Hive Mind's current showings would lend it to "possibly 1-B" at the most, but not the High 1-B stuff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hey everyone. Sorry for dropping out for a lot longer than expected. I'm violently ill at the moment and just barely getting better, so you have that to thank.

Isha shall heal you from Nurgle's plagues.

I think that mostly looks good, but I'm not sure if the 1-B is necessary for the Chaos Gods, considering the most explicit High 1-B quotes are about something that is undoubtedly their domain as opposed to something like Ynnead's. The rest mostly looks like a good start. I can definitely agree with "weaker" C'tan like the Deceiver just being flat 1-B.

We definitely need to iron out that idea, and account for every Warp Entity of the Verse.

I'm unsure what to do with Ka'Bandha and the Hive Mind. The former's feat is contested and the later has no frame of reference to scale to the Chaos Gods.

Also Slaanesh unceremoniously slapped the Hive Mind away in Valedor, and the opening of the Great Rift nearly killed it. So it's possible that it doesn't scale to the true gods in the slightest and just be 1-C.

The Ork Gods are claimed by the Orks themselves to be da tohffest and stronkest there is, but that's just their own hype. Canonically the Chaos Gods are more powerful, as stated in the Rulebooks, and the Ork Codex outright states that Gork n' Mork are currently being attacked and having trouble with the Chaos Gods' daemonic legions.

So I feel they shouldn't scale to the 1-A stuff at all, just High 1-B at best.

The weaker C'tan and Eldar Gods should be only 1-B, with The Nighbringer, The Void Dragon, Asuryan, Khaine and Morai-Heg getting a possibly / likely High 1-B rating.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

Agree that stuff below Chaos should not scale to the 1-A stuff, as well as tiering weaker and stronger Eldar Gods/C'tan separately.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So only Chaos Gods, Emprah and Ynnead?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Matt

The rest I can understand, but what would give The Void Dragon the High 1-B?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He is the most poweful C'tan canonically, and the Eldar Pantheon could not destroy it according to legend.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Ah. Makes sense when you consider he fought the Emperor.

What I also feel is rather important is whether we make Complete Ynnead possibly 1-A like the Chaos Gods or outright 1-A because of other feats it has.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matt

I think that's fair, yes.

Chaos + Emprah getting possibly/likely (still haven't decided) and Ynnead just being flat out 1-A due to its confirmed nature and realm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We need to clarify that only Complete Ynnead would be 1-A, the version of him that doesn't exist yet.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What I also feel is rather important is whether we make Complete Ynnead possibly 1-A like the Chaos Gods or outright 1-A because of other feats it has.

Complete Ynnead is just flat 1-A, but as of now nobody scales to it, which is why the CG are only likely/possibly based on their own quotes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We need to clarify that only Complete Ynnead would be 1-A, the version of him that doesn't exist yet.

Yes.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, if we're going this route in scaling, we should probably remove this bit from Morai-Heg's page.

"It is said in Eldar Mythology that it was through Morai-Heg's Wheel of Destiny that Slaanesh was first spun into being, and that through her Wheel Ynnead would one day also come to be"

Since:

A. This doesn't really seem like a directly applicable feat.

B. Using it messes with scaling hard, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ynnead is the most bullshit thing in the whole verse.

Its infinitesimal avatar's power being indirectly channeled through Yvraine one-shot Khaine, as in literally Khaine's physical form in the material realm, as opposed to an Avatar.

 

[Kepekley23]

Skimmed. I have to say I agree with Azzy...about 1-A WH40K feeling like it is extremely wrong, but that the series isn't bound by what one feels about it.

Otherwise, I agree with Matt. Quite frankly, I had a reservation against WH40K being High 1-B when the upgrade happened, namely the "High 1-B navigation" thing, but I thought it would go bad if I tried and downgrade WH40K in a time when I was obviously trying to get SCP to High 1-B because I liked it better (back then). Never brought it up due to that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Slaanesh Vs. Tyranid Hive Mind, exclusive footage of their awesome fight:

The skein resounded to the triumphant laughter of She Who Thirsts. She was waiting for him now. Her presence pushed aside the limitless mind of the voidspaw. The horrors of the flesh had been displaced by that of the spirit.
He would die the true death, and know unending torment.
- Valedor
Top 10 fastest WWE matches

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Maximum kek.