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What is this and why am I making it?
I'm going to say something that may surprise some people; I don't like that the 40k version of the Chaos Gods are as strong as they are, right now.
Is this because I think it's wrong? No. It's because, with my own personal view of the setting, a setting I am a huge fan of, this level of power is too much. However, as I have remembered with great clarity recently, Warhammer 40,000 is not "my thing". It is not something that is strictly my passion project on this wiki, nor is it, or any other franchise, subject only to what I want it to be.
I say this because I have found that when I provide people with certain quotes about the Warp or the Chaos Gods, and they ask me "How is this not 1-A?", my internal response often ends up as simply, "Because I don't think it should be". That is by no means a good enough reason. I am here to help make profiles accurate, not to make them what I want.
Below, I am going to be posting quite a few quotes. Because I have a huge problem with people just taking things out of context, I will try to provide everything in context to the best of my ability, as well as give a detailed analysis.
This is a thread I have been putting off for a while, so prepare for a long one.
Chaos, the Warp, and Dimensions
Many of you likely remember some of the quotes that made the Chaos Gods High 1-B, in the first place. Most importantly, we have the quotes from Gods of Mars and Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero.
"A glittering megalopolis spread before him, the flow of information that formed the hidden arteries of the Speranza. It was mountainous, rugged with hives of light and vast termite mounds of agglomerated data. Abyssal cliffs of contextually linked information hubs spiraled into fractal mazes of answers that led to ever more questions.
Datacores burned like newborn suns in constellations of linked neural networks. The Speranza was in constant dialogue with itself, learning and growing with every solution gained.
Heuristic in the purest sense of the word.
Every paradigm of scalable time, from the cosmic day to compression of universal history to a single hour, failed utterly to capture the datascape's infinite scope. Its mysteries went back to the first stone tools hacked from river bedrock and stretched into the Omega Point, the Logos, and the Hyparxis all in one.
And for all that this aspect of the Speranza was a place of knowledge and understanding, it was also one of metaphor, allusion, and maddening symbolism. Highways of light were easy enough to interpret, but what of the vast, serpentine coils arcing above and below to encircle the world before coming around to engulf itself? What of the conjoined helicies of light that split apart like the branches of a towering tree with its roots dug deep into the datascape? Could he even see these things truly or was his hominid brain simply interpreting the unknown in ways he could process?
Looking down, if down was even a concept in the infinitely-dimensional realms of thought, it was clear how foolish and naive he had been to claim to have been the Speranza's master." - Gods of Mars
"'This will be of interest to you, brother,' said Perturabo, holding out the complex arrangement of curved metal, winding mechanisms, and adjustable lenses. 'I made a replica of the Antikythera, just like you asked.'.
To see so delicate a mechanism in Perturabo's hands seemed incongruous, as most apparatus bearing the stamp of the Iron Warriors that Atharva had seen ― save for those within this chamber ― had been brutally functional. 'Does it work?'
'I am not entirely sure,' answered Perturabo. 'You never fully explained its intended purpose or how exactly it was designed to function'.
'You've built it,' said Magnus. 'What do you think it does?'.
'I believe it to be some form of navigational instrument,' said Perturabo, lifting the device to look through one of its eyepieces. 'It has the look of a sextant once used by seafarers, but with infinitely more dimensions to its operation. What manner of ocean would you be navigating to require such a device?'.
'The Great Ocean,' said Magnus. 'It allows even those without our gifts to perceive the realm beyond.'." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero
However, there is an issue. Knowingly or note, I find that I have largely neutered these quotes of full context, which points to something a bit above just basic High 1-B.
This felt like it was stretching him past the breaking point.
Then, like taut elastic, he snapped back.
Vertigo, again. Motion blur, quickly followed by nausea. He fought it, knowing it wasn't real. Inner ear balance that wasn't his. A centre of gravity altered. Someone else's body.
New sensations, all unpleasant.
The nausea diminished. The sense of dislocation passed. Light and three-dimensional space unfolded. Dimensions had meaning, again. The vectors of X, Y, and Z restored."
An infinite white void surrounded him, without dimensions or points of reference. He did not know this place, but it was clearly not the Great Ocean. Perhaps this was what it was like to die? Or was this what the mind experienced when it finally let slip the moorings of existence and gave in to death?
No, neither of these answers seemed satisfactory. For all that he had no experience of dying, this did not feel like the end of his body of light.
He had no sensation of his flesh, no sight of the absurdly fragile silver thread that linked his power to his corporeal shell when soaring in the Great Ocean.
Perhaps he had reached too far, dared too greatly, and this was the price he must pay." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero
Before I continue, as a reminder to people, I am going to post our exact requirements for actually having a 1-A tier.
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations.
Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions."
I am going to keep posting quotes to show just how closely the Warp matches these descriptions.
"The warrior in orange and black armor shouted. The automaton stepped forwards, piston driven limbs shaking the deck. The cannon on its shoulder swiveled. The prisoner could feel the dark energy dancing in the weapon. It knew its shape and taste, old and familiar from wars that had scarred the stars when they were young. The gun weapon drew breath to fire. The prisoner's senses traced the distances between every point in the room and sliced time down until only the decay of atoms marked its passing. The short distance from it to the automaton's gun, from the automaton to its masters, from those masters to the door. Every measured value became like crystal, every facet and plane extending through countless dimensions."
The concept of Tzeentch was an appalling thing, one that filled Alaric with disgust, but Raezael's devotion to the being mingled with that disgust, the resulting emotion utterly alien to Alaric's mind, a perversion of everything it meant to be human.
Raezael's understanding grew. Tzeentch desired power, and yet Tzeentch also desired the absence of power, anarchy and confusion, because for Tzeentch to desire any one thing would be to deny its very existence." - Hammer of Daemons
Breaking it dow
Here's what I'm trying to say.
Remember how I even went out of my way to post our requirements for Outerverse level, above? Let's go over this, again.
If I was still trying to downplay this, I'd probably call it something along the lines of "At least High 1-B".
But here's the deal. The Warp directly matches pretty much every requirement we set up for 1-A on the Tiering System page. The best way to say "this isn't 1-A" without flat out ignoring pretty much all of it would be to change what actually constitutes 1-A itself.
I personally don't care, so I'll leave that up to everyone else if they rather do something like that.
Addressing Inevitable Comments and Concerns
Magnus destroying and reshaping realities during his very first journey into the Warp.
"I remember gold. A golden web of glowing threads, spreading through the black, stretching into infinity. The threads split and divided, met and joined, over and over, slicing the emptiness into sharp slivers. I spun through the web. My body blinked between shapes: a silver hawk, a circle of fire, a sickle of moonlight. Rainbow sparks danced in my wake, and the golden web sang at my passing. I felt joy. I had made that journey many times in dreams before that moment, but that was the first time I had dived into the Great Ocean at my own will. It felt like breaking into air after drowning. It felt like returning home. I flew, my thoughts stretching across time and space, my will snapping realities and remaking them. It was so easy, it was like nothing, but it was everything." - Ahriman: King of Ashes
Magnus experiencing "titanic forces" within the Warp accidentally creating and destroying universes with just stray thoughts.
"Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?" - A Thousand Sons, pg 712
Ka'bandha affecting an infinite number of universes in his travel through the Warp.
"Ka'Bandha fell through the hidden spaces between worlds. The occulted gears of creation rushed by him. In the machineries of being were the inner secrets of the universe displayed to him. The daemonkin of Tzeentch would have damned a dozen eternities for a glimpse of what he saw, but Ka'Bandha did not care for knowledge. The things on display were valueless to him, and the wonders of infinity whirled by unappreciated. Ka'Bandha fell forever and for no time at all, until a wave of change rippled out through the multi-dimensional space he infected, upsetting the delicate workings of infinite, interleaved universes. Ka'Bandha howled in triumph. The promised storm had been unleashed." - The Devastation of Baal
So yeah. They have multiversal feats even without "lol dimension wank".
"Had the Chaos Gods worked in unison in the wake of that terrible event, it is doubtless that realspace would have been utterly consumed by the sprawling madness of the warp. Yet true to their nature, the dark brothers saw the anarchy as an opportunity to fulfil their own agendas: to kill, to change, to pollute, to bathe in excess." - Codex: Chaos Daemons (8th ed.), pg. 9
I hope people can look at what I've posted objectively and see where I'm coming from, because even if we did something as drastic as changing the requirements for 1-A because of this, these statements and feats are still the kind of things that get "At least High 1-B" with even the most unfair scrutiny applied.
I'm going to say something that may surprise some people; I don't like that the 40k version of the Chaos Gods are as strong as they are, right now.
Is this because I think it's wrong? No. It's because, with my own personal view of the setting, a setting I am a huge fan of, this level of power is too much. However, as I have remembered with great clarity recently, Warhammer 40,000 is not "my thing". It is not something that is strictly my passion project on this wiki, nor is it, or any other franchise, subject only to what I want it to be.
I say this because I have found that when I provide people with certain quotes about the Warp or the Chaos Gods, and they ask me "How is this not 1-A?", my internal response often ends up as simply, "Because I don't think it should be". That is by no means a good enough reason. I am here to help make profiles accurate, not to make them what I want.
Below, I am going to be posting quite a few quotes. Because I have a huge problem with people just taking things out of context, I will try to provide everything in context to the best of my ability, as well as give a detailed analysis.
This is a thread I have been putting off for a while, so prepare for a long one.
Chaos, the Warp, and Dimensions
Many of you likely remember some of the quotes that made the Chaos Gods High 1-B, in the first place. Most importantly, we have the quotes from Gods of Mars and Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero.
"A glittering megalopolis spread before him, the flow of information that formed the hidden arteries of the Speranza. It was mountainous, rugged with hives of light and vast termite mounds of agglomerated data. Abyssal cliffs of contextually linked information hubs spiraled into fractal mazes of answers that led to ever more questions.
Datacores burned like newborn suns in constellations of linked neural networks. The Speranza was in constant dialogue with itself, learning and growing with every solution gained.
Heuristic in the purest sense of the word.
Every paradigm of scalable time, from the cosmic day to compression of universal history to a single hour, failed utterly to capture the datascape's infinite scope. Its mysteries went back to the first stone tools hacked from river bedrock and stretched into the Omega Point, the Logos, and the Hyparxis all in one.
And for all that this aspect of the Speranza was a place of knowledge and understanding, it was also one of metaphor, allusion, and maddening symbolism. Highways of light were easy enough to interpret, but what of the vast, serpentine coils arcing above and below to encircle the world before coming around to engulf itself? What of the conjoined helicies of light that split apart like the branches of a towering tree with its roots dug deep into the datascape? Could he even see these things truly or was his hominid brain simply interpreting the unknown in ways he could process?
Looking down, if down was even a concept in the infinitely-dimensional realms of thought, it was clear how foolish and naive he had been to claim to have been the Speranza's master." - Gods of Mars
"'This will be of interest to you, brother,' said Perturabo, holding out the complex arrangement of curved metal, winding mechanisms, and adjustable lenses. 'I made a replica of the Antikythera, just like you asked.'.
To see so delicate a mechanism in Perturabo's hands seemed incongruous, as most apparatus bearing the stamp of the Iron Warriors that Atharva had seen ― save for those within this chamber ― had been brutally functional. 'Does it work?'
'I am not entirely sure,' answered Perturabo. 'You never fully explained its intended purpose or how exactly it was designed to function'.
'You've built it,' said Magnus. 'What do you think it does?'.
'I believe it to be some form of navigational instrument,' said Perturabo, lifting the device to look through one of its eyepieces. 'It has the look of a sextant once used by seafarers, but with infinitely more dimensions to its operation. What manner of ocean would you be navigating to require such a device?'.
'The Great Ocean,' said Magnus. 'It allows even those without our gifts to perceive the realm beyond.'." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero
However, there is an issue. Knowingly or note, I find that I have largely neutered these quotes of full context, which points to something a bit above just basic High 1-B.
- For the Gods of Mars quote, the exact same series makes it clear that in this realm, dimensions have no meaning. This suggests far more "an inherently dimensionless space where any dimensional structure can be placed" as opposed to just "an infinite-dimensional structure".
This felt like it was stretching him past the breaking point.
Then, like taut elastic, he snapped back.
Vertigo, again. Motion blur, quickly followed by nausea. He fought it, knowing it wasn't real. Inner ear balance that wasn't his. A centre of gravity altered. Someone else's body.
New sensations, all unpleasant.
The nausea diminished. The sense of dislocation passed. Light and three-dimensional space unfolded. Dimensions had meaning, again. The vectors of X, Y, and Z restored."
- Similarly, the Magnus the Red quote also isn't saying "the Warp is an infinite-dimensional structure". Shortly after this, within the very same book, it's made clear that what was being referred to was only the "surface level" of the Warp. When Magnus ventures deeper, he discovers an endless void that is directly stated to be without dimensions or points of reference. I have often downplayed this as only "seeming to not have any dimensions", but the story itself makes this very clear.
An infinite white void surrounded him, without dimensions or points of reference. He did not know this place, but it was clearly not the Great Ocean. Perhaps this was what it was like to die? Or was this what the mind experienced when it finally let slip the moorings of existence and gave in to death?
No, neither of these answers seemed satisfactory. For all that he had no experience of dying, this did not feel like the end of his body of light.
He had no sensation of his flesh, no sight of the absurdly fragile silver thread that linked his power to his corporeal shell when soaring in the Great Ocean.
Perhaps he had reached too far, dared too greatly, and this was the price he must pay." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero
Before I continue, as a reminder to people, I am going to post our exact requirements for actually having a 1-A tier.
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations.
Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions."
I am going to keep posting quotes to show just how closely the Warp matches these descriptions.
- The Warp is completely unbound by physical space, time, or causality.
- "Physical space" on its own is already far, far greater than just a 4-D space-time continuum.
"The warrior in orange and black armor shouted. The automaton stepped forwards, piston driven limbs shaking the deck. The cannon on its shoulder swiveled. The prisoner could feel the dark energy dancing in the weapon. It knew its shape and taste, old and familiar from wars that had scarred the stars when they were young. The gun weapon drew breath to fire. The prisoner's senses traced the distances between every point in the room and sliced time down until only the decay of atoms marked its passing. The short distance from it to the automaton's gun, from the automaton to its masters, from those masters to the door. Every measured value became like crystal, every facet and plane extending through countless dimensions."
- Once again, the Warp is confirmed to be completely and utterly unbound by physics and all laws of time and space.
- Completely anathema to the laws of physics.
- More statements of the Warp having no physical dimensions.
- Extremely direct confirmation that Chaos is beyond the very concept of time itself, and that the Gods can erase and recreate it as they see fit.
- The laws of physics, time, and nature are flat out stated to be meaningless concepts, there.
- Time and distance again confirmed to not exist.
- Not bound by physical reality's rational laws. Again, this is the same physical reality composed of a countless number of higher dimensions.
- Even more direct statement about the Warp being dimensionless in nature.
- The story goes out of its way to point out that the only dimensional limitations of the Warp are the ones the inhabitants put on themselves.
- Just for the hell of it, let's throw in some clear nondualism, as well.
The concept of Tzeentch was an appalling thing, one that filled Alaric with disgust, but Raezael's devotion to the being mingled with that disgust, the resulting emotion utterly alien to Alaric's mind, a perversion of everything it meant to be human.
Raezael's understanding grew. Tzeentch desired power, and yet Tzeentch also desired the absence of power, anarchy and confusion, because for Tzeentch to desire any one thing would be to deny its very existence." - Hammer of Daemons
Breaking it dow
Here's what I'm trying to say.
Remember how I even went out of my way to post our requirements for Outerverse level, above? Let's go over this, again.
- "no dimensional limitations"
- "a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space"
- "something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental"
- "can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions."
If I was still trying to downplay this, I'd probably call it something along the lines of "At least High 1-B".
But here's the deal. The Warp directly matches pretty much every requirement we set up for 1-A on the Tiering System page. The best way to say "this isn't 1-A" without flat out ignoring pretty much all of it would be to change what actually constitutes 1-A itself.
I personally don't care, so I'll leave that up to everyone else if they rather do something like that.
Addressing Inevitable Comments and Concerns
- "Chaos doesn't even have basic multiversal feats! How the hell could they be outerversal?"
Magnus destroying and reshaping realities during his very first journey into the Warp.
"I remember gold. A golden web of glowing threads, spreading through the black, stretching into infinity. The threads split and divided, met and joined, over and over, slicing the emptiness into sharp slivers. I spun through the web. My body blinked between shapes: a silver hawk, a circle of fire, a sickle of moonlight. Rainbow sparks danced in my wake, and the golden web sang at my passing. I felt joy. I had made that journey many times in dreams before that moment, but that was the first time I had dived into the Great Ocean at my own will. It felt like breaking into air after drowning. It felt like returning home. I flew, my thoughts stretching across time and space, my will snapping realities and remaking them. It was so easy, it was like nothing, but it was everything." - Ahriman: King of Ashes
Magnus experiencing "titanic forces" within the Warp accidentally creating and destroying universes with just stray thoughts.
"Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?" - A Thousand Sons, pg 712
Ka'bandha affecting an infinite number of universes in his travel through the Warp.
"Ka'Bandha fell through the hidden spaces between worlds. The occulted gears of creation rushed by him. In the machineries of being were the inner secrets of the universe displayed to him. The daemonkin of Tzeentch would have damned a dozen eternities for a glimpse of what he saw, but Ka'Bandha did not care for knowledge. The things on display were valueless to him, and the wonders of infinity whirled by unappreciated. Ka'Bandha fell forever and for no time at all, until a wave of change rippled out through the multi-dimensional space he infected, upsetting the delicate workings of infinite, interleaved universes. Ka'Bandha howled in triumph. The promised storm had been unleashed." - The Devastation of Baal
So yeah. They have multiversal feats even without "lol dimension wank".
- "If Chaos is so strong, why haven't they been able to wipe out a single galaxy/universe, already?"
"Had the Chaos Gods worked in unison in the wake of that terrible event, it is doubtless that realspace would have been utterly consumed by the sprawling madness of the warp. Yet true to their nature, the dark brothers saw the anarchy as an opportunity to fulfil their own agendas: to kill, to change, to pollute, to bathe in excess." - Codex: Chaos Daemons (8th ed.), pg. 9
- "Beyond dimensional/higher dimensional Chaos is inconsistent."
- "Too vague. 40k uses way too much flowery language for this to be taken seriously."
- "This doesn't match how I view 40k."
I hope people can look at what I've posted objectively and see where I'm coming from, because even if we did something as drastic as changing the requirements for 1-A because of this, these statements and feats are still the kind of things that get "At least High 1-B" with even the most unfair scrutiny applied.
