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We Need to Talk About the Chaos Gods

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Simply transcending time doesnt (even on a conceptual level) equate to 1-A though, God transcends both the concept of duality, including the concept of time and space, but my CRT for him to get upgraded to 1-A got shot down, because apparently if thats 1-A then all creator deity are 1-A
 
Aeyu said:
@Lucis

If you're referring to characters who exist in/atop a Type IV multiverse, Downstreamers are one, and I've advocated for their return to 1-A in the past.
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I'm pretty sure the Downstreamers were rejected not because Type IV isn't enough, but because there isn't enough proof that their multiverse is Type IV.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
Aeyu said:
@Lucis

If you're referring to characters who exist in/atop a Type IV multiverse, Downstreamers are one, and I've advocated for their return to 1-A in the past.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the Downstreamers were rejected not because Type IV isn't enough, but because there isn't enough proof that their multiverse is Type IV.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this. I got the impression that they don't have type iv from the Note section. (What are they doing in High 1-B anyway. If they don't even have type iv then they automatically shouldn't have High 1-B-type multiverse, they should still stay at High 1-C at most.
But ugh, sorry for the derail, maybe I'd make downgrade thread for it :p)
 
Beyond above concept of time is not the same as being above the concept of time on every level. You need to consider what time is in your Verse.
 
@Matt

I'm back finally, so I'll respond, now.

High 1-B Warp:

We agree on the Gods of Mars thing, so I don't really have any comment, there.

I do however, disagree with Perturabo's word being unreliable. The fact is that he was the one to reconstruct this device, so it's not as if Magnus just showed him a random thing and said "Guess what this is?" with zero other context. A device being used to navigate something like the Warp would also not mean the device itself was infinite dimensional. Perturabo would not need to create some sort of infinite-dimensional construct for this to actually work.

"It is talking about how three-dimensions returning to having meaning. And I can assure you, in an infinitely-dimensional realm made of concepts, thoughts and metaphors, they would have just as absolutely 0 meaning as in a dimensionless realm."

I disagree with this, as well. Obviously the vectors of X, Y, and Z are the ones the Magos moves through, but the exact same book and series constantly reference the analysis of higher-dimensions. It does not make sense for this to solely refer to the 3-D/4-D world.

  • "Information hung in bright veils, reams of icons, numbers and readouts unravelling in skeins of light, a neural network of unimaginable intricacy and multi-dimensional geometry."
  • "Azuramagelli barked in the negative. 'The calculations are too complex for those not versed in hexamathical logic equations. You could not comprehend the multi-dimensional integer lattices without augmentation or inloaded wetware."
  • "Vitali's brain had been augmented, rewired and surgically conditioned in so many ways that its processes resembled those of a baseline human in only the most superficial ways. He thought faster and on multiple levels at once. His powers of lateral thinking and complex, multi-dimensional visualisation were beyond the abilities of even gifted human polymaths to comprehend."
None of this would suggest "dimensions" just referred to such a low-level of perception.

Realspace Stuff:

Strongly disagree with this not scaling to realspace as a whole. C'tan and Necron lore makes it very clear that it does, even if other factions do not understand it to such a degree. Their entire purpose is being masters of the material universe, which is independent from just what any lesser beings understand the "material universe" to be. Even in the Mechanicum quote, Semyon makes it very clear he's referring to the material universe, which is further driven home by the fact this knowledge comes from a C'tan itself.

The Supposed 1-A Warp Quotes

A lot of this seems to miss the point I was trying to make. At no point did I say "every one of these quotes is 1-A on its own". The vast majority of the quotes are there to simply help further explain the nature of the Warp in comparison to something limited, such as realspace. You seem to be taking every individual quote on its own to say "this isn't 1-A", when what I am doing is showing it in comparison to everything else.

  • "This is... Not 1-A? It is a description that can fit even 5th Dimensional stuff, honestly, or even less. It's an eldritch and nightmarish realm beyond the boundaries of physical space and linear time as we understand it. That's not remotely dimensionless."
For example, this. It takes the quote on its own, while ignoring that the "physical space" being discussed has a countless number of dimensions, itself. We cannot divorce the context of these quotes to being applied to "just any physical space" as opposed to 40k's.

  • "This quote is actually contrary to the Warp being this 1-A. It refers to the Immaterium as a universe parallel to our own (More on that later), which is unbound by the laws of space and time and physics (Again, not 1-A). Almost every single Universal+ to Multiversal+ Abstract / Conceptual entity would be 1-A if this was a valid requirement.
Also the later quote in this line about how "Warpspace is Chaos and Chaos is Warpspace" is straight up wrong. There are numerous things in the Warp which are not composed of Chaos, such as the Formless Wastes, the Emperor and all His stuff, the Ork Gods, the Aeldari Pantheon, etc."

In no way is this contrary to the Warp being 1-A, High 1-B, or...well, anything. "A universe parallel to our own" does not suddenly mean it is exactly the same or even similar to our universe, or any other universe that we know of, when all lore makes it extremely clear that it isn't. There are numerous 1-A characters here who abide by some form of causality, which should be hilariously below what the Chaos Gods are supposed to operate at, yet we do not treat this as "contrary to them being 1-A". If it was, multiple characters from the Masadaverse, DC/Vertigo, etc. would never have become 1-A, in the first place.

Fairly certain the second part is saying that Chaos and the Warp are inserperable, not that Chaos is the only thing in the Warp. Granted, that's not super important to the discussion at hand.

  • "So a Tier 2 feat."
Again, not with actual context. That's part of the point I'm trying to make.

  • "This is debatably 1-A, but I'd have to see the full context. This is about the Formless Wastes, right? In that case they are less 1-A and more like just literally nothing, as they are parts of the Warp untouched by the mind and will of any god or daemon."
This part is actually just the full context. It's a very brief snippet from the Chaos Daemons codex, but isn't really related to the other stuff being mentioned. As you can see, it's talking about the Realm of Chaos as a whole, with the Formless Wastes only being a part of it. However, the quote itself is made clear to refer to everything.

"The Warp has no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography. The areas of inuence controlled by the Chaos Gods form their realms, and the rest of this roiling landscape is often referred to as the Formless Wastes, the Land of Lost Souls or the Chaos Abyss." - Codex: Chaos Daemons

  • "Okay, this is super impressive, but not 1-A? We don't rank people as 1-A for transcending or ignoring the concept of space or time, because it does not mean that transcending 4th Dimensional linear time equates to transcending all forms of higher-dimensional non-linear time."
This is like the ultimate supporting feat, but more than almost any other it isn't meant to be used on its own. It is, at the absolute least, being used to show that the Chaos Gods aren't just some generic baseline High 1-Bs, but entities at this level that transcend and can erase the very concept of time. This is something that, without context, is just kind of a "holy shit" moment, but within the setting, is far closer to something like "At least High 1-B" or just "1-A" when combined with other things.

  • "Again, this is the standard description of the Warp as above our understandings of physical space, linear time, and the laws of physics. What else is new, how is this relevant?"
Simply relevant due to the fact that the verse in question has laws of physics that objectively stretch up to countless dimensions of influence as opposed to just being something of a generic 4-D continuum.

  • "Clearly it exists in some form, or else no Spaceship would ever navigate through the Warp in anyway. I can also post a ton of quotes which outright states that Time does exist in the Warp, only in a strange and unrecognizable way, where it works seemingly at random.
This is why someone can enter the Warp, and leave centuries before or millennia after, because time does exist in the Warp in some fashion, just not a linear one."

This is part of why I inisited that all of this be viewed in its full context and among the other quotes. Just two quotes above, we have confirmation that time only exists should the Chaos Gods will it to, meaning this statement is not in fact contradictory, but supports the very concept of time constantly being altered, erased, or messed with.

  • "Also, this is Horus Heresy Book One, right? Those books are amazing pieces of lore and worldbuilding, and part of what makes that so good is that they are written from the perspective of an in-universe scholar trying to piece all the events of the Heresy together from fragmentary sources. Not saying that the POV writer here is wrong, he ain't, just that it isn't from an omniscient narrator."
I think this is a fair assessment, as I am trying to look at the most objective quotes out there.

  • "Okay, this is probably 1-A, maybe. However, I think it is valid to note that the Warp is often described as "dimensionless" or "Without dimension" in the sense that it is so vast that it is impossible for people in it to have any sense of scale and dimension in it."
I agree, but this particular quote was picked specifically because the use of "dimensionless" was extremely deliberate.

  • "Again, this seems to fit with the notion of the Warp as a "realm" that is shaped by your thoughts and dreams and will. Without anything to shape it, the Warp is simply... nothing. It is empty and void, until something fills it. And there the will fills it with what it can conjure."
I agree that there is a possibility of just "nothing" without it being shaped. However, it's also made clear that not only are the Gods self-sustaining, but they are shapers as well, not merely there to be molded. This fits with stuff like them having "always existed" even before they did from an outsider's perspective, along with the Warp being constantly shifting without ever truly staying the same.

Non-Dualism and Ka'Bandha thing

  • "How in God's good Earth does one interpret this as transduality, of all things. The only thing which the quote, which as far as I can tell is from the perspective of a Space Marine who is being enlightened / turned insane by Tzeentch (Same thing, really), is that Tzeentch is the embodiment of contradiction. He both is and isn't, does and doesn't, desires and doesn't desires, etc."
I probably should have made it more clear that the lead-in comment to this quote was a meme about "lol transduality" which I'm now realizing was probably harder to pick up when 99% of the rest of the post is meant to be objective and serious. lmao The actual quote is just there to show that the Gods themselves are contradictory.

  • "It was not Ka'bandha's moving through the Warp which was affecting infinite universes, but rather The creation of the Great Rift, a feat done by the four Chaos Gods in conjunction. In Realspace it split the galaxy, but in the Warp where everything is insane it ****** over infinite, interwoven univeres."
Yes, I know the full quote. However, I've always interpreted this part as saying it was partially Ka'bandha's doing.

"Ka'Bandha fell forever and for no time at all, until a wave of change rippled out through the multidimensional space he infected, upsetting the delicate workings of infinite, interleaved universes."

However, I can see how the "wave of change" could more easily be explained as being done by the Chaos Gods, as the quote does use phrasing such as "Ka'Bandha fell forever and for no time at all, until", which could more accurately mean "until something happened" as opposed to "until he caused something.

  • "It's still a feat, but please don't go "Lol any Greater Daemon is 2-A in the Warp"."
I don't think anyone has suggested it be used like that, especially with guys like Draigo running around and not even the Daemon Primarchs being rated this high.

Answering some lesser things:

  • "Quite simply, because it almost surely can't. Chaos, and anything of the Warp by extension, has an extremely limited influence in Realspace, because both are anathema to each other, in the sense which they are opposites. They are parallel realities, one of which is governed by laws, space, time, matter, and the other is governed by will, thoughts, emotions and metaphors."
Definitely disagree with this one. The daemons of the Warp are definitely bound upon entering Realspace, but the daemons are not the Gods. Daemons do not embody realms larger than all of Realspace put together, which is also part of why a "complete" Chaos God can't simply open a Warp rift and walk into the physical universe. We even have direct confirmation that the Gods could have consumed Realspace in the wake of the Great Rift had they decided to actually work together and focus on their goal, but they instead decided to keep dicking each other over. I would trust this statement a lot less if it wasn't an omniscient narrator statement there for the sole purpose of reminding us that Chaos' greatest enemy is itself.

  • "Higher-Dimensional? Certainly not. Beyond-dimensional? Absolutely. There are very, very very few quotes which make the Warp 1-A for certainty, and most quotes simply state that it is above the Low 2-C reality governed by material space, linear time, and physical laws. High 1-B only has one trilogy of books that indicate it, but I nonetheless accept it because it is so ludicrously in-your-face."
Yes, there are obviously quite a few more assorted higher-dimensional quotes than their are dimensionless ones, but that does not mean we should discard the dimensionless ones altogether. Especially because, as we've seen, we even have in-universe reasoning for the varying dimensional levels of beings within the Warp, which is simply due to the fact they choose to impose these restrictions on themselves.

  • "Barring the quotes about the "Deep Warp", they are the best we've legitimately got. Yes, the Warp is ultimately just raw, undefined energy waiting to be shaped into whatever the will of mortals can conjure, but that does mean it is simply 1-A. Because the Warp is quite simply just whatever you perceive it as. The Warp is a reflection of the minds and hearts of mortals, and so when you stare at its Abyss, the Abyss quite literally stares back."
Yes, without a doubt. However, if the Warp can "generate" anything that is perceived of it, from the relatively "normal" Slaanesh's palace to an infinite-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor, while still not reflecting its "true" self, I don't believe these would be in some way contradictory to the potentially higher stuff we have.

  • "This isn't a headcanon of mine, this is outright stated in Flight of the Eisenstein and Talon of Horus. I just don't post the quotes to make this even longer."
I definitely wouldn't argue it being so. This has been canon to the Warp's nature for as long as I can remember. However, I do think that these things simply being the surface of what is perceived of the Warp is quite an important distinction to make. Though I guess we'll get into that, next.

The Materium and the Immaterium:

  • "Currently, this wiki seems to imply the relationship betweeen the Material Universe and the Warp as the former being an infinitesimally tiny pebble dropped within an endless ocean. Realspace is utterly insignificant, puny, powerless and worthless before Chaos."
Yes, because it definitely is. Of course, the Warp cannot just exert its full influence on all other realities at all times. That's part of what keeps it in check.

  • "Of course, you will now type how I am wrong, how the Warp is beyond linear-time and thus this is incorrect, and Chaos is eternal and the gods always existed, and how Chaos has consumed countless universes before our own...
And yes, you are correct. The point is that both interpretations are 100% equally true. This wiki currently acts like only the Warp-perspective is true, and that saddens me deeply as it removes one of the most fascinating parts of 40K: That when we look at Chaos, we are looking at ourselves.

The relationship between The Materium and the Immaterium is contradictory. Both are two halves of the same coin, two aspects of the same "universe". One is Reality, while the other is Unreality. One is defined by space, time and physical laws, and the other runs on the logic of dreams, imagination, emotions and thoughts. They both depend on the other to exist, and are also mutually exclusive."

This is obviously, 100% true, as well. My main issue is that while an essential part of the cosmology, it in no way hinders any potential tier or rating, save for something along the lines of High 1-A/0. Someone like the Presence both shaping creation as well as being shaped by its inhabitants does not remove the possibility of him being 1-A. It is simply an integral part of Vertigo's cosmology, and helps better explain the character. Of course, I am not sure if you're actually saying "This type of cosmology prevents them from being such and such", but I just want to clarify.

  • "Why did I write all this? Because quite frankly, this habit VBW is having of treating the Warp as infinitely and undoubtedly transcended and superior to the Material Universe is plainly wrong. It annoys me to see the base cosmology of Warhammer so eagerly tossed out of the window so that the Chaos Gods appear more impressive."
I don't know if people are intentionally tossing this out so much as they don't fully understand the relation between the two. An interpretation such as "killing all mortals in the galaxy kills Chaos" is misinformation that the lore itself has not substantiated, but saying "the thoughts and wills of even the most lowly sentient beings can help shape the Warp" is an integral part of how the verse functions.

  • "This is also telling. He is not in the Warp, so much so that he cannot feel the thread connection his psychic consciousness with his physical body when he swims through the Great Ocean. It is something else entirely."
I should definitely clarify this with its full context. While it is not the Warp as Magnus knows it, I would doubt it is entirely divorced from it. Magnus begins to conjure random memories within this void, which he soon realizes aren't truly random. Upon doing so, he's shocked to realize he's not just witnessing a memory, but is a part of an actual experience. It's then that he speaks with the Emperor before being thrust back into his own body after taking the Emperor's hand

"Since no vistas were presenting themselves in this void, Magnus would conjure his own. If he was going to spend an eternity in this place, then he would be damned if he'd do it bored.

Memories surged around him, a series of snapshots from his life: the climb into the hills of Prospero where he found the statue whose destruction gave rise to the Fellowships of the Thousand Sons; the inaugural conclave of the First Masters in the Reflecting Cave; taking a knee before his father upon their first meeting in Occullum Square, though in truth they had spoken for many years already.

He conjured them at random, knowing all the while that nothing was every truly random, wondering which memory would come to the fore.

The answer presented itself, as the night he had climbed the Astartes Tower to meet his father on the eve of his departure from Terra swam into focus.

It had been a bittersweet moment, for they were both aware it would be many years before they met this way again. The Great Crusade was a vision of supreme ambition, one that would take father and sons to the uttermost corners of the galaxy for decades, perhaps even centuries. Only a fool would entertain any notions of certainty on the commencement of such a singular undertaking.

They had sat upon the highest peak of the slender tower and cast their minds out over the world, flying together one last time. Only then did Magnus understand he was not simply witnessing a memory, but was part of it." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero

"No more had been said on the matter, and they had returned to their bodies atop the Astartes Tower to say farewell. His father had taken a seat by the great celestial occullum and the impossibly complex maps detailing His plans for galactic conquest. Though they had shared a sublime moment flying the aether, Magnus knew his time here was at an end. The Emperor turned and extended His hand, and Magnus looked into his father's eyes, wondering how he had not noticed the wistful look of sadness he now saw in them. 'Remember this moment,' said the Emperor. 'I will,' promised Magnus. He took his father's hand and Magnus gasped in sudden pain as his spirit was wrenched from the memory and hurled back into his body." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero

Magnus basically ends up having some sort of strange communication with the Emperor inside of his own memories. I do not think this is part of the "Great Ocean" that Magnus knows, but I'm not sure exactly what to consider it. At the very least, I would consider it drastically different from something like Ynnead's realm, which is more akin to complete and utter void.

  • "What's interesting is that it shows that there is some sort of Realm beyond both the Material Universe and the Warp, a realm which is described as pure void of absolute nothingness, death in its truest sense, empty and absent. Sounds familiar to the description of the place Magnus wandered?"
Completely agree that such a realm is beyond both the Materium and the Warp. However, I do not think this absent realm of death is the same that Magnus visited, for Magnus had not died. He was worried this was what death felt like, but it seemed like the reality was that his "body of light" had been separated from his physical form. Regardless, he was still "alive".

"Would that be his fate? Would his sons be forced to watch their sire fade, the skin pulling back on his skull, the flesh melting from his bones? Or would his miraculous gene-forged body endure forever, leaving him trapped in this limbo state?

Who could know?

The great dramaturge had only scratched the surface of things when he called death 'the undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn no traveller returns'.

If this was his fate, then Magnus would have no regrets. Better to have flown too close to the sun than never feel its heat...

'I am still alive,' he said, and his voice was thrown back at him as though he stood in the centre of a great amphitheatre." - Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero

  • "Once again, the similarity between the quotes is staggering. Mephiston's consciousness is swimming through a place he calls The Dark, "The embodiment of neither", which is not the Material Universe nor the Warp, neither real nor unreal, but a non-space of pure darkness.
This is genuinely puzzling to me, but it seems to be a recurring thing in recent Warhammer 40,000 Lore. There seems to be a realm outside both the Materium and the Warp, which fully transcends their dualism and conflicting concepts. It is nonexistence in its truest sense, not in the way the Warp "doesn't exist" as it is made of dreams and thoughts, but rather pure, absolute nothingness.

I have no idea what this entails for 40K at large, but it is intriguing to say the absolute least."

Indeed. I would say the realm Magnus mentions seems similar yet divorced from Ynnead's realm, but then the issue arises that Ynnead's realm is not too far off, either. At the very least, I believe this suggests something like Ynnead may be quite a bit farther beyond the rest of the setting than I formerly believed, as he seems to be completely separate from both the Warp and Materium.
 
Is this just a Trump's wall of Text buliding contest at this point?
 
I don't think that Magnus necessarily visited Ynnead's realm, more like he simply visited a realm of nothingness and absence which just happens to be where Ynnead is, because Ynnead doesn't even exist, yet.
 
DMUA said:
Is this just a Trump's wall of Text buliding contest at this point?
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This is what it looks like when people try to objectively analyze a rather controversial franchise while remaining respectful.

Usually threads just go "downgrade this verse cuz it sucks lol" and then someone responds with "you're mom gay".

Then the thread has to be closed several hundred posts later for being pure cancer.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't think that Magnus necessarily visited Ynnead's realm, more like he simply visited a realm of nothingness and absence which just happens to be where Ynnead is, because Ynnead doesn't even exist, yet.
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This is definitely a possibility, though it seems odd that in Magnus' case it would be a sort of "between life and death" thing as opposed to "realm of complete death".
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Yobobojojo said:
>1-A Warp Gods
Uh... sure this isn't Highlight worthy?
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Maybe. Maybe not.
But the proposed change isn't just "1-A Warp Gods", and I don't want people saying stuff like "I agree FRA" without actually analyzing what's been written, which is what Matt and I are trying to do.
Click to expand...
Fair enough point.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
But the proposed change isn't just "1-A Warp Gods", and I don't want people saying stuff like "I agree FRA" without actually analyzing what's been written, which is what Matt and I are trying to do.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I'd be far more comfortable with some sort of variable Tier for the Warp Gods, which would be open to the multiple interpretations of Warpsace.

There are some quotes that imply 1-A, albeit most of them seem to suggest that it is an area removed even from the Warpspace which the Chaos Gods control, or not the Warp entirely. The best quote about the Warp having dimensions is infinite-dimensional, and honestly I feel that infinite-dimensional brushes the line between Dimensional and Dimensionless, because something that has infinite-dimensions renders realms that are 3D and 1,000,000+D as equally infinitesimal and meaningless.

Then there is also the perspective that an AdMech will see the Warp as infinite-dimensional not because it is so, but because that is what the AdMech wishes to see, which opens a whole new can of worms about what the Warp ultimately is, objectively speaking.

Look at this quote from Flight of the Eisenstei:


It was impossible for a person possessed of an unaltered mind to comprehend the nature of warp space. The seething, churning ocean of raw non-matter was psychoactive. It was as much a product of the psyches of those that looked upon it, as it was a shifting, willful landscape of its ow. On Ancient Earth there had once been a philosopher who warned that if a man were to look into an abyss, then he should know that the abyss would also look into the man. In no other place was this as true as it was in the immaterium. The warp was a mirror for the emotions of every living thing, a sea of turbulent thought echoes, the dark dregs of every hidden desire and broken and mixed together into a raw mass of disorder. If one could apply a single word to describe the nature of the warp, that word would be Chaos.

The Navigators and the Astropaths knew the immaterium as well as any human could, but even they understood that their knowledge stood only in the shallows of this mad ocean. Description of the warp was not something they could easily relay to the limited minds of lesser beings. Some saw the realm as if it were made of taste and smell, some as a fractal back-cloth woven from mathematical theorems and lines of dense equations. Others conceived it as song, with turning symphonies to represent worlds, bold strings for thought patterns, great brass reveilles for suns, and woodwinds and timpani for the ships that crossed the aurascape. But its very existence defied comprehensio. The warp was change. It was the absence of reason unleashed and teeming, sometimes mill-pond calm, sometimes towering in titanic, stormy rages. It was the Medusa, the mythic beast that could kill an unwary man who dared to look upon it unguarded.
Basically, any description of the Warp by mortal beings will be wrong, and ultimately a reflection of their psyche and subconscious more than the real thing. This is why a lot of 40K downplayers go "Lol Warp drugs" whenever any description of how a character perceives the Warp is shown, because it is impossible for any character to be objective about the Warp.

Not that I agree with them 100%, the Codex quotes are obviously much more objective than anything written from an AdMech, Navigator / Astropath, Farseer, Chaos Sorcerer or Magnus' perspective.
 
But honestly, everything looks good here, 1-A makes sense if the Warp has no physical limitations, is beyond the concept of time, has no dimensions, as well as the fact that High 1-B would only be the surface. (Sorry if I'm misinterpreting or not understanding the full scope of what you'e written. I can hardly say I have full understanding of the verse, at least in the sense you and Matt do @Azzy)

And of course, I don't want to make this a mess either, but a highlgiht is generally necessary for threads of this magnitude. Of course, I understand even huge upgrades like this require immense precision, so it's the staff's call.
 
Again, the idea of the Warp being High 1-B being only the surface is heavily debatable, and it is currently being argued if the 1-A stuff is even the Warp to begin with.
 
@Matt

I definitely agree the "limbo" stuff being connected to the Warp is arguable. However, the following quotes are definitely about the Warp itself.

"The Warp has no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography. The areas of inuence controlled by the Chaos Gods form their realms, and the rest of this roiling landscape is often referred to as the Formless Wastes, the Land of Lost Souls or the Chaos Abyss." - Codex: Chaos Daemons

"Distance was physically meaningless in the warp, but his brain could not cope with a dimensionless state, no matter his training. It was impossible to shape thoughts without a sense of up and down, near and far, in and out." - All Must End


That said, shifting away from every other god for a second, if some of the most obvious 1-A stuff applies to Ynnead and its transcendent realm, what should we do about it? It seems to most consistently match this description despite how relatively little lore it has.
 
Ynnead's "realm" isn't even his realm, more like Ynnead is of that realm, which is reserved for absolute absence, nonexistence and void.

The Materium is real because it is defined by concrete science, laws, space and time. The Immaterium is "unreal" because it is defined by thoughts, emotions, and the logic of dreams. But it of course still "exists" in its own sense.

The "Limbo" is unreal in the truest sense of the word. It objectively doesn't exist. I wouldn't be surprised if Horus is there, somewhere.
 
@Matt

Yes, but like...what do we do with Ynnead, then? Because it's seeming far more likely to be 1-A even if we decide nothing else in the verse is. Almost like Oblivion compared to other abstracts.
 
At best I'd say that the fully-awakened version of Ynnead would be 1-A, but the aborted fetus premature version of Ynnead that we have isn't.

But then that also has some... horrofying implications for Ynnead stuff as a whole. Like, what would even happen if Ynnead fully awakened as the embodiment of pure absence and nonexistence which it is hinted as being?

Will everything in the setting just die forever?
 
So I've read this thread completely... twice now (God damn why is 40K so wordy lol).

I find myself leaning towards 1-A, unless I missed something important.
 
The thing is... Even if the deepest, most abstract parts of the Warp are 1-A, I genuinely don't think that scales to the Chaos Gods.
 
@Matt

I definitely agree those "most abstract parts" would be more likely to scale to someone like complete Ynnead, who transcends the Warp entirely, though we should probably also analyze stuff like the "dimensionless" quotes for the normal Warp, too.

Also heads up that I'm going to be gone for a couple hours, just in case I seem to suddenly drop off the face of the Earth.
 
I still disagree on you about the Daemon Codex quotes taking into account the Necron / AdMech stuff from Forge of Mars, tho. Not only were those quotes all written before those books, but they also talk about superiority over tha laws of physics and linear time, which would be redundant if they were talking about superiority to something that... Is already above those things.

Also, since we are here, can we talk about how the non-Ynnead Aeldari Pantheon should get some downgrades?
 
Oh obviously, but I don't think that detracts from the fact that similar statements have been placed into even the most recent Daemon codex (which is obviously far more recent than something like Mechanicum), as it's definitely something the verse is going to roll with.

Agreed on the second thing, btw. Though I'm not sure exactly where they should be.
 
I feel that the best solution to all of this would give multiple Keys to the Chaos Gods and the like.

If we are going to give the 1-A thing, then have it at least be "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A". Or preferrably, "At least 1-B, likely High 1-B, possibly 1-A" I feel, specially with stuff such as the Void Dragon being supposedly being one of the most powerful things in the whole setting. Unless that is too uncertain.

Anyways, I feel that all the Eldar Pantheon should be lowered to the level of the C'tan, and with those that have feats that imply some degree of comparability to the Chaos Gods being "At least 1-B, likely High 1-B", I feel.

I don't think that even if the Chaos Gods become possibly 1-A, we should give that same ranking to people like Khaine or Asuryan, because they are not on the level of the complete Chaos Gods, which are absolutely abstract embodiments of their respective concepts on all levels, but more like beings that can fight their "physical" forms.

Unlike someone like Ynnead who can put down Slaanesh permanently, something that not even the Emprah can do.
 
I would not have much of an issue with "At least High 1-B, possibly/likely 1-A" for the Chaos Gods and just "1-A" for complete, fully awakened Ynnead. I'm not sure if "possibly" or "likely" is more fitting based on the scenario. I would have to mull that over.

I also think the rest of the Eldar Pantheon being lowered to that level is fine, as they've never been presented as quite abstract or important to reality.
 
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