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Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

I'm currently in a peaceful mood while reading Iruma manga and rewatching the anime to rework the verse, and since some months ago I already become tired of the deep skill debates since they are an actual pain in the ass, so I genuinely don't care if you wank Ikki to beat a tier 0 with a karate chop, cut in two a immesurable dude or outsmart a omnicients being, if people agree with it just put him above or whatever.

Though I guess that just for the thread sake I will at least respond to a few things: 1) I mentioned the dude to which he scale equal or above skillwise with the reasoning for that and proof for that (for example the proof of why he is show as comparable to Hajime or supass Mother), as well as the skill feats of those characters. 2) War Demon is more than just simple endurance, and if we were to going that route the Sion feat of fight with her body broken would be just endurance which everyone (except Bob) agreed was also considerable skill. 3) Serene Mind is just a state of mind that he can activate at any moment and that he just simply use when fighting seriously (since he don't really need it in other situations), and is different to Trackless Step because TS very specifically is created to work against the human brain to take advantage of their processing limit so to say it can work with things like machines or normal supercomputers (not even things at Mother processing level) is quite the stretch without feats backing it. 4) As I believe I already showed between the various scans I posted before, all those fights against armies were times were he was nerfed both magically and physically, so any of those opponents could had perfectly killed him, and all were of them were skilled combatants (specially the futuristic machine soldiers), so very clearly wasn't a stat stomping as you claimed.

Finally, while I don't care about all your wanking or if Kouki go lower on the list, I would like at least some scans for the opposite side (this is not only directed at Ikki wanking but everyone in general), after all I myself brought several scans to back my claims at the moment and for that I needed to go through literally several thousands words (literally the average fight of Kouki in the after stories had a 8000-10000 words length and the dude had several fights to show what he become) to just take a very reduced portion of that to express the points in a easier way to others, so I think the right thing is for others to also back things with scans, I'm not asking for the same amount of effort I did but at least a minimal effort with some scans.

And that's all, you can answer or not, everyone can decide that he is better or not, I don't care, I said my piece and will not further respond to instead focus on things I actually care (like reading and revising Iruma).
 
Damn lil bro went hard. Couldn't go 2 sentences without saying "ikki wank".

Also completely just forgetting me saying skill chains don't work like that and keeping the skill chain argument. Basically the logic of "4 > 1,2,3 therefore 4 > 1+2+3". Cus that's the difference between being better than mfs individually then somehow scaling above all their feats combined.

Serene Mind is just a state of mind that he can activate at any moment and that he just simply use when fighting seriously (since he don't really need it in other situations), and is different to Trackless Step because TS very specifically is created to work against the human brain to take advantage of their processing limit so to say it can work with things like machines or normal supercomputers (not even things at Mother processing level) is quite the stretch without feats backing it.
Click to expand...

Thing is it very very directly explained the weakness the same way "you need omni consciousness" (lack the ability to focus on a single task), "feel the grass swaying beneath your feet" (notice things that the mind would usually disregard as extra information. Im not sure how it's different. And if it worked on machines then that's them not being true machines (have the ability to focus and can block out information) otherwise there's just contradicting text on the ability. As for processing level, it has nothing to do with that, but as i said Ikki completely outclasses what you mentioned about the mother.

Even simple magic needing complex calculations to pull off (and i mean shit as simple as throwing a ball of fire or an ice shard):
Even though it's such a simple action, there are people who twist their ankles, or get tripped by a small stone, resulting in failure. Let alone magic, which requires complicated configuration operation and trajectory calculation......it can't be helped if you failed, right?"

Here is Shizuku using her ability to purify water:

Touka, at this point, had already understood the advantage she had against Shizuku.
It was the time required to execute techniques.
Shizuku needed to pay attention to every single molecule of water, removing any impurities to create pure water that had an attribute of insulation, to dodge the lightning. It was an extremely nerve wracking, delicate operation.
In comparison, Touka only needed to clad her slashes with lightning and send them flying towards Shizuku. It didn't really require a delicate procedure.

「Yeah… everyone thinks that water loses to electricity, right? But no, when water does so it's because impurities like ions and microbes in the water make it conductive. Water becomes less and less conductive as it becomes more and more pure, until it becomes ultra-pure and forms a complete insulator that electricity won't pass through.」
「I see… oh? Then why don't other water users copy this tactic?」
「It's not that they don't, they can't. Completely removing impurities at the ion level is like sifting gold dust from desert sand. Only Shizuku-san's level of magic control allows her to perform such a technique. If an ordinary knight tries to copy this maneuver, won't his mind burn out first? Cough As you'd expect for the first-year runner-up… guh!」

Reconstructing her body atom by atom (turning into vapour):
Wallenstein's discomposure was natural. Because although Aoiro Rinne was temporary, it was a technique that severs one's own life.

"With a top-class magic control, you can reconstruct something, but it's impossible to do so after dying…! No, even if you could do it, if you make the slightest error in reconstituting the trillions of cells in the human body, I don't even know how difficult it would be…! To use that kind of power on your own body…! Are you sane, you little…!?"

Certainly there was great merit in overriding the physics of an attack. But to do so, an overly powerful technique was necessary. The burden of risk was too great. Therefore to Wallenstein in his consternation, Shizuku―

"I'm plenty sane. If it's me, it can be done, I believed."

―declared so, as if it was nothing.

From what small calculations i did once when i had free time i think this kind of shit came out to like 10^28 extremely complex calculations ever time touka attacked and Touka was machinegunning that shit. And this is volume 1 Shizuku, ikki is above shizuku even way later.

4) As I believe I already showed between the various scans I posted before, all those fights against armies were times were he was nerfed both magically and physically, so any of those opponents could had perfectly killed him, and all were of them were skilled combatants (specially the futuristic machine soldiers), so very clearly wasn't a stat stomping as you claimed.
Click to expand...
Point remains, there's a lot of things that go into winning a fight, especially stomping an army. You can't get much from it. And there's still other questions that arise like how good were these guys? You may say pretty good. Well then how do they compare to an average guy in rakudai? How do they compare to an army in rakudai? You see how many questions that you really can't give an answer to arise from feats like this? There's a reason we stick to direct feats and not this kind of thing.

2) War Demon is more than just simple endurance, and if we were to going that route the Sion feat of fight with her body broken would be just endurance which everyone (except Bob) agreed was also considerable skill.
Click to expand...
From a 2nd reread it seems like the skill is just glorified healing. It keeps reinforcing the body as it breaks to keep it in a fight. And not only is it a magic feat and therefore not as easily quantifiable, but idk if you want to go down that route seeing the feats i posted above regarding shizuku.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Damn lil bro went hard. Couldn't go 2 sentences without saying "ikki wank".

Also completely just forgetting me saying skill chains don't work like that and keeping the skill chain argument. Basically the logic of "4 > 1,2,3 therefore 4 > 1+2+3". Cus that's the difference between being better than mfs individually then somehow scaling above all their feats combined.



Thing is it very very directly explained the weakness the same way "you need omni consciousness" (lack the ability to focus on a single task), "feel the grass swaying beneath your feet" (notice things that the mind would usually disregard as extra information. Im not sure how it's different. And if it worked on machines then that's them not being true machines (have the ability to focus and can block out information) otherwise there's just contradicting text on the ability. As for processing level, it has nothing to do with that, but as i said Ikki completely outclasses what you mentioned about the mother.

Even simple magic needing complex calculations to pull off (and i mean shit as simple as throwing a ball of fire or an ice shard):
Even though it's such a simple action, there are people who twist their ankles, or get tripped by a small stone, resulting in failure. Let alone magic, which requires complicated configuration operation and trajectory calculation......it can't be helped if you failed, right?"

Here is Shizuku using her ability to purify water:

Touka, at this point, had already understood the advantage she had against Shizuku.
It was the time required to execute techniques.
Shizuku needed to pay attention to every single molecule of water, removing any impurities to create pure water that had an attribute of insulation, to dodge the lightning. It was an extremely nerve wracking, delicate operation.
In comparison, Touka only needed to clad her slashes with lightning and send them flying towards Shizuku. It didn't really require a delicate procedure.

「Yeah… everyone thinks that water loses to electricity, right? But no, when water does so it's because impurities like ions and microbes in the water make it conductive. Water becomes less and less conductive as it becomes more and more pure, until it becomes ultra-pure and forms a complete insulator that electricity won't pass through.」
「I see… oh? Then why don't other water users copy this tactic?」
「It's not that they don't, they can't. Completely removing impurities at the ion level is like sifting gold dust from desert sand. Only Shizuku-san's level of magic control allows her to perform such a technique. If an ordinary knight tries to copy this maneuver, won't his mind burn out first? Cough As you'd expect for the first-year runner-up… guh!」

Reconstructing her body atom by atom (turning into vapour):
Wallenstein's discomposure was natural. Because although Aoiro Rinne was temporary, it was a technique that severs one's own life.

"With a top-class magic control, you can reconstruct something, but it's impossible to do so after dying…! No, even if you could do it, if you make the slightest error in reconstituting the trillions of cells in the human body, I don't even know how difficult it would be…! To use that kind of power on your own body…! Are you sane, you little…!?"

Certainly there was great merit in overriding the physics of an attack. But to do so, an overly powerful technique was necessary. The burden of risk was too great. Therefore to Wallenstein in his consternation, Shizuku―

"I'm plenty sane. If it's me, it can be done, I believed."

―declared so, as if it was nothing.

From what small calculations i did once when i had free time i think this kind of shit came out to like 10^28 extremely complex calculations ever time touka attacked and Touka was machinegunning that shit. And this is volume 1 Shizuku, ikki is above shizuku even way later.


Point remains, there's a lot of things that go into winning a fight, especially stomping an army. You can't get much from it. And there's still other questions that arise like how good were these guys? You may say pretty good. Well then how do they compare to an average guy in rakudai? How do they compare to an army in rakudai? You see how many questions that you really can't give an answer to arise from feats like this? There's a reason we stick to direct feats and not this kind of thing.


From a 2nd reread it seems like the skill is just glorified healing. It keeps reinforcing the body as it breaks to keep it in a fight. And not only is it a magic feat and therefore not as easily quantifiable, but idk if you want to go down that route seeing the feats i posted above regarding shizuku.
Click to expand...
Bro wrote a whole essay 💀
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Dante did but too much bs for this thread apparently
Click to expand...
It was cap all along ppl just wouldn't listen to me

Da3ggman said:
Bro wrote a whole essay 💀
Click to expand...
That's tame af wym. You seen the OG Ikki vs Yujiro or Ikki vs Fugil threads? What a wrote above looks like a sentence in comparison.

Also have you read pendulum cards? Magician of Endymiyon in particular that shit is also huge. Yes i had to make a yugioh reference cus im addicted at this point.
 
Last edited:
This is like 1% of what Ikki essay could be.

Anyway I already said I think Ikki should be pretty high here tbh.
 
Sad that Ionsiote isnt interessted in doing much Wiki work anymore, Fugil is currently one of the uncrowned Skill kings of the past
 
I personally don't agree with Arifureta's dooky skill scaling so Ikki has my vote.
 
azontr said:
I personally don't agree with Arifureta's dooky skill scaling so Ikki has my vote.
Click to expand...
Thats crazy. Thats messed up. Thats ****** up.


Not much to say, Expectro folded right at the beginning of the debate. Now the actual question is, do we just push Kouki out or do we push him down
 
Yes. But nah fr idk if i wanna engage in a skill debate that long.

We'll see tho, if i get tired of all the Master Duel tournaments and need another break imma go for it.
 
azontr said:
He's smart.
Click to expand...
I mean, in the time I could had wasted in that unproductive thing I was able to begin to work in 11 sandbox profiles (they will get more full in general when I advance more in the story), made 4 calculations (plus other ones that I didn't end posting due to not be worth the result), made a sandbox thread with currently 96 spoiler tags for different abilities and statistics (I already have enough abilities to make a physiology page), and more things that I will continue to make consider I'm just at one third of the main story (plus the spin-offs that I haven't touched). I believe I do better using my time and effort with that than arguing who have a longer dick between Ikki and Kouki.

And now I will return to work in that.
 
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