Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Cause if they do then this would be a blatantly nonsensical feat.

There's more to battle than just raw skills. You tactics, mental fortitude and decisions you make during battle matter a lot.
Just because two equally skilled opponents fight doesn't mean they will always draw.

Try loading up a fighting game, but both sides as same character and same difficulty of A.I and watch what happens. One will lose and other will win. That's because not every battle is same, you can mistakes, you can be unlucky, you could have not had your breakfast or maybe you are sleep deprived, maybe you made some **** ups and I'll thought out choices or maybe you mucked up your execution,..... Blah blah blah.

Countless factors go into a battle which can shift and decide outcomes even if two opponents are exact perfect replicas of each other down to last quantum particle.

So I don't see what's so non-sensical here. Kratos was stiffer, weaker and slower compared to his clones, everyone involved as same skillset and abilities. But he made better decisions in combat and had more composed mind compared to his blood thirsty clones.

 

[Bobsican]

Grappling is what Kratos is famous for lol, that's the shit he literally grew up on as a Spartan cadet. Even in gameplay every airborne enemy can be grappled and smashed. So I don't know where the doubt is coming from.

He can jump mid air, dash and fly, he can Tele-substitute etc. He has all the mobility in air as any standard airborne character.

Mainly by not being that much into GoW, lol.

Anyways, isn't the jumping mid-air a game mechanic? The rest is fairly valid.

I'd appreciate some scans on that stuff to more properly evaluate, however.

Well, there's a lot of other skill feats we've yet to catalogue for Kratos but the basics are this:

Man was a brutal Spartan general who at a young age was demolishing Spartan soldiers twice his age and size, and he became the youngest Spartan captain and general, his martial prowess was such that he was also able to take on the Champions of other Gods.

In case that wasn't enough, after he got the Blades of Chaos and rampaged through Greece and then ended up killing his wife and child, everyone involved with the Gods started to salivate at Kratos' fighting skill.

Sora isn't even an adult, he's a bit small for his age (1.6 meters tall), let alone not being particularly muscular (I could also cite this either way, looks aren't a particular factor here), yet is deemed as an unimaginable force from the perspective of characters that could see events across entire centuries in the future (their time was nearly at the start of the series' cosmology), down to being stronger than veteran older formally-considered Keyblade Masters like Mickey Mouse and Aqua. As said before, the distant past characters even used the Book of Prophecies to just inherit his techniques.

It reached a boiling point once Kratos got the powers of Pandora's Box (Notably, Hope, or rather, a sliver of it) and then murked Ares, a God of War who literally had knowledge and cosmic awareness of all forms of war and conflict over all periods of time, past, present and future, with nothing but his own skill and prowess, when his own weapons wouldn't work, Kratos used Ares' Spider-Arms against him, and then when banished to a dimension by Ares (Because Kratos was pushing him over the edge) left to protect apparitions of his wife and daughter, he had to protect them from clones of his that were younger, much stronger, faster, smarter, more battle-capable and far more blood-hungry than he was, Kratos was at a severe disadvantage, and yet he smashed said clones into pieces like glass, forcing Ares to strip him of his magical powers and weapons leaving him with only Hope locked inside Kratos, but even so, once Kratos got his hands onto the Blade of the Gods, all of Ares' power steal and mimicry and cosmic awareness of all war fell to shit, and Ares died, paving the way for Kratos to become the new God of War, making him get the same exact powers as Ares himself.

Eh, I could make a similar argument as said before with the whole deal of the Book of Propecies, the Datascape and Data-Riku, except it's strictly a better feat as KH's cosmology is way larger, meaning that there's far more resources to analyze from if we want to get there. "Spider-Arms" doesn't tell me much, and the whole deal of outskilling "better" clones of himself also potentially falls as one of those "nonsense" feats that aren't usable out of simply not making sense, although the call on that is on clarifications on that and @azontr .

The last bit of the Blade of the Gods sounds like hax, and I don't need to explain that gaining hax in itself is skill, I guess he has cosmic awareness over all violence that has or will be in the cosmology, which is a notable intelligence trait, but it's difficult to relate that to combat skill here, namely against someone that's strictly better than a (outdated) clone of himself (Data-Sora) that could manage against someone that was aware of all events in a far larger cosmology up to the present (Data-Riku).

Soon after, Kratos is deprived of his Godhood and killed by Zeus, but that doesn't stop him from coming back and charging at the Sisters of Fate to change his destiny. Even the Sisters of Fate and Athena themselves admit that Kratos' battle skills are second to none, and the Sisters also admit that if Kratos ever got the Spear of Destiny, he'd have made good on his threat to kill Zeus right then and there.

Also just hax and resistances, lol, not skill, would you claim that SCP-682 is skilled just because he can hax/resist away 99% of the site? No? Yeah.

I guess he can upscale skill-wise from the rest of the verse, but you've yet to elaborate what other kinds of feats the other characters have to begin with for these purposes beyond what has been said above.

Then there's the video that Gilver showed.

Cough, cough, cough, cough, cough

In a nutshell for a quick summary of Sora's moveset: This, this, and I presume this was already checked too.

Sora has a surprising amount of proeficiency on a tens of weapons, can mix between them on the fly, and dual/triple wield.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sora is not even a fair opponent for Kratos.
Kratos strictly doesn't hurt kids, period. He has deep aversion to violance against children.

So this entire discussion is useless.

 

[Bobsican]

For the purposes of this thread just assume Kratos is out of character on that regard.

 

[KLOL506]

Sora isn't even an adult, he's a bit small for his age (1.6 meters tall), let alone not being particularly muscular (I could also cite this either way, looks aren't a particular factor here), yet is deemed as an unimaginable force from the perspective of characters that could see events across entire centuries in the future (their time was nearly at the start of the series' cosmology), down to being stronger than veteran older formally-considered Keyblade Masters like Mickey Mouse and Aqua. As said before, the distant past characters even used the Book of Prophecies to just inherit his techniques.


Eh, I could make a similar argument as said before with the whole deal of the Book of Propecies, the Datascape and Data-Riku, except it's strictly a better feat as KH's cosmology is way larger, meaning that there's far more resources to analyze from if we want to get there. "Spider-Arms" doesn't tell me much, and the whole deal of outskilling "better" clones of himself also potentially falls as one of those "nonsense" feats that aren't usable out of simply not making sense, although the call on that is on clarifications on that and @azontr .

No clue why this wouldn't work out, I just see this as arbitrarily locking out skill and experience feats for no reason.

The last bit of the Blade of the Gods sounds like hax,

It isn't. Blade of the Gods has no hax whatsoever.

and I don't need to explain that gaining hax in itself is skill, I guess he has cosmic awareness over all violence that has or will be in the cosmology, which is a notable intelligence trait, but it's difficult to relate that to combat skill here, namely against someone that's strictly better than a (outdated) clone of himself (Data-Sora) that could manage against someone that was aware of all events in a far larger cosmology up to the present (Data-Riku).

That cosmic awareness gives them in-depth information about the languages and weaponry used in these eras, Kratos as the new God of War even saw the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and somehow instinctively realized that this wouldn't be able to harm him in the least bit. He also understood the foreign tongues of the various battles of the Rubicon, Sekigahara and many others.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry, can't.
You want any clarification on something GoW related I can answer. Don't bother me with out of character battles tho.

 

[KLOL506]

Also just hax and resistances, lol, not skill

Not sure what hax has to do with anything here, the Sisters and Athena were referring to Kratos dominating the other demigods and the Dark Rider, this is all before Kratos obtains the Spear BTW.

 

[KLOL506]

For the purposes of this thread just assume Kratos is out of character on that regard.

Yeah no not gonna happen, even bloodlusted Kratos won't touch a kid.

 

[Bobsican]

No clue why this wouldn't work out, I just see this as arbitrarily locking out skill and experience feats for no reason.


That cosmic awareness gives them in-depth information about the languages and weaponry used in these eras, Kratos as the new God of War even saw the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and somehow instinctively realized that this wouldn't be able to harm him in the least bit. He also understood the foreign tongues of the various battles of the Rubicon, Sekigahara and many others.

It's more so that this kind of stuff is difficult to quantify (if at all), let alone in relation to other characters, see here for more information on that, the more details on what this is particularly shown to include the better. Either way, if we go down this route technically Sora has the advantage by having a larger cosmology and upscaling from there. The last bit on languages is also quite unrelated to the sort of skill measured in this thread as that goes more into general intelligence.

It isn't. Blade of the Gods has no hax whatsoever.

Not sure what hax has to do with anything here, the Sisters and Athena were referring to Kratos dominating the other demigods and the Dark Rider, this is all before Kratos obtains the Spear BTW.

Okay, more scans would be appreciated to evaluate what kind of skill was involved then.

Yeah no not gonna happen, even bloodlusted Kratos won't touch a kid.

Do you have a better idea on how to evaluate then? Fundamentally Sora and Kratos fight quite differently for the most part and neither have an opponent with a similar set as the other.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

You guys seem to be missing the entire point- This thread is to determine if X character is more skilled than Y character. If X character has a aspect of their personality that would completely prevent them from fighting Y character, it's only logical that for such a thread that said aspect would be nulled and voided. Otherwise, why would half these character's even fight? Literally any two character's that have some level of morality would cease to fight. Not to offend, but...
Coming here and expecting otherwise doesn't make much sense. If this were a normal versus thread, then sure, but this thread's purpose is to evaluate the skills of two fighter's and have them compete.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

There's more to battle than just raw skills. You tactics, mental fortitude and decisions you make during battle matter a lot.
Just because two equally skilled opponents fight doesn't mean they will always draw.

Try loading up a fighting game, but both sides as same character and same difficulty of A.I and watch what happens. One will lose and other will win. That's because not every battle is same, you can mistakes, you can be unlucky, you could have not had your breakfast or maybe you are sleep deprived, maybe you made some **** ups and I'll thought out choices or maybe you mucked up your execution,..... Blah blah blah.

Countless factors go into a battle which can shift and decide outcomes even if two opponents are exact perfect replicas of each other down to last quantum particle.

So I don't see what's so non-sensical here. Kratos was stiffer, weaker and slower compared to his clones, everyone involved as same skillset and abilities. But he made better decisions in combat and had more composed mind compared to his blood thirsty clones.

... Arguably, one's Tactics and Decisions are either aspects of or affected by one's overall skill. Regardless, following your logic, this still would do very little for Kratos's overall skill, if his foe's are directly as skilled as him supposedly, and the only thing that let him win was him being calm. The point is that the feat in question doesn't seem a great choice for ascertaining Kratos's skill- Which is the entire point of this thread.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

but this thread's purpose is to evaluate the skills of two fighter's and have them compete.

Then just evaluate in vaccum or more neutral comparisons.

Because out of character battles just **** up the mentality of opponents. Like Kratos holding back out of love or principle has almost always lost. Deimos and Thor almost killed him because of that. And on other hand bloodlusting doesn't do anything either because Kratos is by default bloodlusted.

The point is that the feat in question doesn't seem a great choice for ascertaining Kratos's skill

Keeping aside skillset and abilities. Being able to beat multiple opponents faster, stronger and agile is definitely counts for skill feat.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Then just evaluate in vaccum or more neutral comparisons.

Because out of character battles just **** up the mentality of opponents. Like Kratos holding back out of love or principle has almost always lost. Deimos and Thor almost killed him because of that. And on other hand bloodlusting doesn't do anything either because Kratos is by default bloodlusted.

Unfortunately, this thread has, and likely will continue to, used battle's where character's are A, willing to fight, and B, are removed of the vast majority of their hax, to determine who is more skilled. I apologize if that's something you don't enjoy or aren't fond of, but that's how it's been run for a good while. What would you suggest as a definitive better Measuring Stick for compare two character's then?

Keeping aside skillset and abilities. Being able to beat multiple opponents faster, stronger and agile is definitely counts for skill feat.

Like you said- Keeping aside Skillset. This "Feat" would be ignoring the fact that his foe's would directly have the same skill as him. If he won because of skill? Then his foe's aren't as skilled. If he won because of some Decision making and wisdom that are not connected to his skill? Then it's a feat not connected to his skill. It's been stated that they supposedly have the same skill. Can you explain how Kratos defeating several people who have the same skill as him, but are superior in nearly every other way is somehow a feat directly correlated with skill?

 

[Bobsican]

Skill scaling loops are ignored for obvious reasons, yeah.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What would you suggest as a definitive better Measuring Stick for compare two character's then?

There's nothing wrong with battle scenarios for evaluation. I just feel out of character shenanigans in some cases just makes the debate sour for me, from both debate stand point and theme. Feels artificial and forced. Not always, but definitely in cases like this.

I won't dicate how others should debate. That's up to you. All I will give are opinions as if this was a Olympic match and you are evaluating each individuals performance in certain fields. Like martial arts, prediction, weapon handling of what not.

Can you explain how Kratos defeating several people who have the same skill as him, but are superior in nearly every other way is somehow a feat directly correlated with skill?

It's just difference of opinion on what counts as skill then. I wouldn't bet on any concrete description. To me skill is more about what you are capable of doing in general or in a vaccum, not same as what mental approach you have to battle and choices you make because of it. Because such things obviously influence a battle and your "skill". They influence rather than come directly under your default fighting prowess.

 

[Bobsican]

Man, and I noticed that Sora was brought up a few times in the GoW discussion thread as a candidate to fight Kratos should they ever get compatible tiers, smh.

That said, then it'd be best to do a more organized and detailed skill feat list for Kratos to ease evaluation, as right now the stuff presented has little aim beyond showing skill in general, let alone scans.

 

[azontr]

Feel like people have misunderstood the VS Thread process I set up for this thread, so, I'll just clear it up.

My original intention when making this thread was not to have two characters pitted in a fit against each other utilizing only combat skills. It was meant to compare feats between characters and simply see who was better logically/on paper. Yall are the ones who wanted to have entire fights to the death between the characters to decide who was the most skilled, but, that was never my intention.

So, if people want to preserve the integrity of Kratos' character, you can simply just... not have him and Sora fight. You can just lay out their feats and let people vote on who is the one with better combat ability based on consensus.

That's all.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, more scans would be appreciated to evaluate what kind of skill was involved then.

Combat skill. That's all there is to it. No other skill was involved here. Fights happen the exact same way as in the games but with a little bit of extra dialogue and backstory given in the novels.

Do you have a better idea on how to evaluate then? Fundamentally Sora and Kratos fight quite differently for the most part and neither have an opponent with a similar set as the other.

'Fraid there is no other way to evaluate this other than "Kratos loses because going after kids blatantly goes against his ethos".

 

[azontr]

'Fraid there is no other way to evaluate this other than "Kratos loses because going after kids blatantly goes against his ethos".

Or literally just do what I said above.

 

[Bobsican]

Combat skill. That's all there is to it. No other skill was involved here. Fights happen the exact same way as in the games but with a little bit of extra dialogue and backstory given in the novels.

Well, seeing more specific cases would be of help to see what Kratos does in different scenarios, maybe something fairly similar of note could also be found in relation to what Sora has displayed/fought.

'Fraid there is no other way to evaluate this other than "Kratos loses because going after kids blatantly goes against his ethos".

Then remove the Kirby match as Kirby is a child for his species while we're on that, unless he wouldn't innately know that to begin with, in which case I'd have to ask if that'd realistically be a factor here.

 

[azontr]

Then remove the Kirby match as Kirby is a child for his species while we're on that, unless he wouldn't innately know that to begin with, in which case I'd have to ask if that'd realistically be a factor here.

I'm 99% sure he is referring to humanoid children, not pink blob children-

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Kratos regularly stomps cruelly on Cerberus pups, Harpy chicks and nymph larvaes throughout his adventures. The children thing is human-like species exclusive.

You can just lay out their feats and let people vote on who is the one with better combat ability based on consensus.

Sure.
That's what I thought was the original intention. When I am done with work I'll put up something, or just wait untill currently planned CRT passes first.

 

[azontr]

Sure.
That's what I thought was the original intention. When I am done with work I'll put up something, or just wait untill currently planned CRT passes first.

It was the original intention, but people started turning it into actual skill fights which is fine, but you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

 

[Planck69]

Then remove the Kirby match as Kirby is a child for his species while we're on that, unless he wouldn't innately know that to begin with, in which case I'd have to ask if that'd realistically be a factor here.

He wouldn't know and likely wouldn't care anyway, it's exclusive to humanoid sapient beings i.e. he'd likely not try to kill Haruhi Suzumiya but wouldn't have qualms wrecking Perfect Cell's shit.

 

[First_Witch]

Thats racist

 

[Shmooply]

Thats racist

Good.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Thats racist

Oh you have no idea... Wait till you know racism against Athenians.

 

[Planck69]

Thats racist

Actual excerpt from the novel;

Ares rampaged through the city, crushing buildings and kicking away people in the square. The city was entirely at the mercy of the God of War, and mercy was in short supply. Ares had no more mercy than he did compassion or selfrestraint. It was a bad night to be Athenian.
Kratos was a Spartan. Was there ever a good night to be Athenian?

 

[Bobsican]

Lol.

I guess I'll have to wait for a more organized skill list over trying to push for Kratos just fighting a child out of character for the sake of this thread.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

Any other nominations in general?

 

[azontr]

I'm probably gonna re-submit Mori Dan/Jin when I finish revamping Jin's profile but otherwise, no, this thread is Hella dead.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Maybe I can go try and find, idk, someone to submit somewhere, but I'm not really feeling anyone specifically rn.

 

[Phoenks]

Is Mori Jin really that skilled? Like, really?

 

[azontr]

Is Mori Jin really that skilled? Like, really?

Yes-

If you don't think he's skilled then you haven't read GoH, because his profile doesn't do him justice.

 

[Phoenks]

Yes-

If you don't think he's skilled then you haven't read GoH, because his profile doesn't do him justice.

It's not that I don't think he's skilled, I suppose it's just that China men set the bar pretty goddamn high.

Is he more skilled than like... kojiro, for example? In terms of analytical prediction?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Gonna create a argument for Mash soon

 

[azontr]

It's not that I don't think he's skilled, I suppose it's just that China men set the bar pretty goddamn high.

Is he more skilled than like... kojiro, for example? In terms of analytical prediction?

...Does he need to be? They aren't going in the same category. Mori is a Martial Artist, Kojiro is a Swordsman.

But, to actually answer your question, yes. Mori Dan, at least, is skilled enough that he can outskill a person who has analytical prediction good enough to "reverse-predict" a guy who has precognition capable of seeing countless futures, and could one-shot him just by flinching a muscle.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Mori is likely the most skilled close combat bare hand character from these mentioned...his verse itself is skillz. Then, you have Kenshiro, Baki verse, Kengan verse, lots of Martial Arts manga.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Since I've updated Xu Jingming, here a few more things to add to his list.

• He is good at using all living things and their environments to instantly find a path[114] most suitable for him.
• Has studied for a month the feather[116] of a High-Dimensional Alien Creature - Sovereign of Fire, comprehending 5.6% of the third volume of Fire of Annihilation, Blazing Sun thus figuring Spark[116], the fifth volume Light of the Sun spear art.
• Created his path system by fusing and integrating his previous insights of the phenomena of all living things, the flow of water, the Earth Dao, the Spark Dao, the Light of Mind Ignition, Streaming Light Spear Dao, igniting the light of the mind, the insights of the planetary river, the insights of the spacetime prism, and the Light of the Sun to comprehend the Infinite Light[117] system.
• Comprehend the first core volume, Light Rays[118], of the Primordial Star Conjecture by understanding 8.7% of the Primordial Star, one of the three highest art systems of the universe making it be on a higher level than the Fire of Annihilation, Blazing Sun volume of the High-Dimensional Alien Creature - Sovereign of Fire[116].
• Used multiple borrowed forces[44] from his opponent's weapons to strike them with his spear.
• In just 6 years, after tens of thousands[119] of battles, he managed to be recognized as one of the most talented fighters in the entire universe.

These are his current listed feats on the thread, but will post them again within a spoiler tabb so all his feats can be listed just once.

Spoiler

Feats

• He is known as best genius of the new Earth Cosmic Civilization, being the first after the introduction of the Evolutionary Method to become a Perfected Planetary Lifeform and later a Cosmic Lifeform. Not only is he a master of multiple martial arts (be them hand-to-hand or weapon oriented) but he create his own styles and even a multi-dimensional spearmanship system. Xu Jingming combines traditional martial arts with modern physics which he studied in University and even after to help him reach higher peaks. Has the best knowledge about biology and physics from all professional gladiators on Earth. An evolutionary lifeform will have an increased computational ability as they evolve thanks to their brain developing further.
• Studied the Eight Extremities Sect Martial Art; Xu Jingming bases his martial arts on the combination of the traditional fighting style with the principles of physics[9]
• Skilled in use of spear and double shields. Is also very proficient in throwing his spear[10] with great precision; Created his own spearmanship - Life-Nourishing Spear Technique[11] which is extremely gentle but will accumulate might and erupt at any time; Can borrow the rebound force[12] of projectiles to lash out more effectively and not stop his momentum
• He's able to move in his armor with a spear and two shields without making a sound[5]- just his armor/spear weights over 3 tons. The spear is 1.2 tons so the shields should weight even more.
• Has reached a level in combat that he fight on an instinctual level[13] and fight without thinking.
• Can analyze his opponents[13] in a fight to find their flaws and defeat them with ease.
• Before the Evolution Method was even introduced, he was recognized as one of the top ten professional gladiators in history.
• Xu Jingming studied physics in university and dissected traditional martial arts techniques to study them from a physical point of view as he believes all forms of force are in line with science.
• Has fought with 100 bandits without a problem while doing it without thinking thanks to reaching the level of reacting on instinct.
• Created from 18 major classes and 73 minor classes of spear techniques systems a multi-dimensional spearmanship system.
• Can catch an arrow mid flight and throw it back with more speed and accuracy than the sharpshooter and can throw reinforced concrete blocks at a speed of 2000 m/s at a moving target.
• XU Jingming can dodge bullets by sensing the air fluctuations and even stab them with his spear.
• Even when surrounded by assassin in an area of 20 by 20 meters, he has no problem to fight them thanks to his mastery of dual shields which can not only be used for defense but also offense.
• Can control the opponent movements and momentum in a fight by striking carefully with his spear in a way that it gives him no way to retreat or leave his spear range.
• Had no problem to borrow the rebound force of projectiles that were targeting him at mach 10, and lash out to strike others without stopping his momentum.
• Thanks to practicing the Evolutionary Method, his brain is more than 100 times stronger than that of an ordinary human which helps him to outline a three-dimensional map of an entire city in his mind.
• Just by seeing the ultimate move of an opponent he deduced that his foe knows at least 10 staff techniques and 19 ultimate moves.
• Grasped Tejano's first move of his ultimate technique by deflecting its attacks with the Spatial Domain Style and at the same time comprehending its following moves as by understanding one thing the rest will follow too.
• Understand the true core of the Water-Style art making him able to be like water - with no fixed forms making him able to go with the flow of his foe and find their weak spots in a fight which also made him be able to counter and divert even a faster/stronger fighter than him.
• Is recognized as a transcendent genius for his talent let him be known as a very rare being born only once in hundreds out of hundreds or thousands of planets.
• Managed to defeat the someone whose speed, power, agility and experience were above him.

 

[azontr]

Weakest Chinaman.