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Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

And to explain why I sound so critical of Combat feats;

Its because in a actual fight, skill is not the only deciding factor. Character A winning against Character B dosnt necessarily means that Character A is more skilled than B. What matters FAR more is what happened in a fight. A fight in of itself is not a skill feats. What happened in one is.

To transer this to Sion vs Hyperion. The reason why it is a skill feat first and foremost is because Sion had nothing BUT her skill at her disposal to win. She and her Sword defied odds stacked so high against her that I would understand it if people thought it was Plot Armor. But it is explained and shown in painstaking detail how Sion utiliszed her Sword skills to bridge the difference.
 
AG's have a proper military structure, weapon mastery AND swarm behavior themself. It is AG Doctrine to swarm Knights with grunt units until they succumb to the sheer wave behavior. Sion specificly had to cut herself free from complete surrounding multiple times. And when I speak about complete surrounding I mean COMPLETE surrounding.

The issue with those feats is that both Heartless and AG's are complete fodder in skill compared each respective character. Whiping the same fodder over and over again does not show impressive skill.

And while Roxas was getting weaker, Sion was getting closer and closer to death, with a body more badly decayed than a decade old corpse.

So tldr, Its not a good argument in the first place and even if it were, Sion has it beat by a mile.
While it is true that each respective hoard are rather fodder compared to the fighter's, it looks like you're somewhat downplaying Roxas's state of being. Yes, his body wasn't failing on him, but throughout day's we've seen that this weakening has both A, made it harder for him to use the Keyblade's power, and B, has caused him to see Visions/Nightmare's. In addition, the further day's went on, the worse Roxas's mental state became, as he slowly uncovered all the lies he had been told for his entire year of being part of Organization 13. To say that Roxas was mentally being shredded would be a understatement, but even with that he still held the skill to fight off so many enemies with little to no power or hax. Sion may have been at Death's Door, which is commendable, but Roxas's body was slowly becoming fodder in comparison to the physical stats of those he fought, and his mental state was rapidly spiraling into a emotional mess.

This isn't even to mention how, at the beginning of Day's, Roxas was also fighting in spite of being a literal mental baby (He couldn't even formulate more than 2 words, let alone sentences.)
So we agree that Sion has this beat as well? Because not only is Sion faster, hers is far more in depth and complex
If this was about speed, Roxas would have her beat by a lightyear- Literally. The speed that character's can perform stunts is less important here than the complexity, keep in mind, as Roxas can literally react to exiting out of a beam of Light, immediately going on the offensive the very moment he exits. That said, I concede that I cannot quite argue againt the complexity of this feat in particular. KH character's rarely do anything as flashy as tossing their sword into the air and catching it at the right moment to block something.


Calling this a pure skill feat is disingenous not gonna lie. Sora has far more hax to compensate for the fight. Sions fight with Hyperion was a PURE skill feat as Sion had NOTHING other than her sword and techniques to fight Hyperion.
It is not a pure skill feat, this is true. Sora had many more hax. But likewise, Xemnas had infinitely more power Hax then Hyperion. It may not be a full skill feat, but clearly Sora would have needed a large degree of Skill to keep up with Xemnas. This also isn't even considering the fact that in most of the Cutscene's I showed, Sora doesn't even use any abilities or hax. It is not 100% skill, but don't write it off as not showing any skill because of that. Sora was fighting someone who had the equivalent to Thousands upon Thousands of soul's, who could have pulled power from all of them. The stakes were blatantly staked against Sora's favor.

This is all scaling chains with not much substance again. The best feat Im seeing is beating Sora after a year of training, weaving through Danmaku, mastering a hard and complicated weapon and a weird fate/precog feat. Sion became the most skilled character within Knight Run as a child and in 2 years. A verse comprised of other insane Sword Masters, like Anne whose control over her body allows her to manipulate her own nerves, or Garou who can counter a omnidirecional shockwave plus space debris being flung at him with Sword Skills only. Sion using Pray Style techniques is far more impressive because the entire style is infamous for wrecking your body with each usage.

The weird no time training feat is not impressive as well. It dosnt matter how long you trained if you cant proof that they grew in skill through that time. What matters is what was archived in that time.

The whole Precog feat is questionable as well. If the books prophecys are absolute you would be in nonsense territory of "Outskilling fate itself". If they arent then that simply means that they outgrew themselve from the point of the prophecy onwards. Which can range from bridging a small difference to a huge one. Assuming even that Skill was the deciding factor in the first place.

Like look, I'm not trying to rag on Kingdom Heart skill. This not me saying Roxas isnt skilled. But if you want Sions spot you would have to have her beat in more categories. Not only is Sion beating Roxas in most of your arguments, Sion has a entire slew of feats Roxas just plainly dosnt have. Far better senses feats, fat better martial arts feats, better analytical prediction feats FAR better power mimicry feats, better combat feats etc.

All I'm seeing is just a bunch of names being thrown with one or two feats. Inversely, I gave several feats for why Master Xehanort has a insane amount of skill, and a chain to show how Roxas scales to that pretty comfortably. Garou is a little impressive, but Sora's defending against the Laser's is infinitely more so, especially seeing as he also is only using his sword skills to ward them off.

The character in question, Kairi, started off as little more than a damsel in distress. She blatantly had no skill. After the training, she is comfortably fighting alongside Axel, who was trusted by Xemnas as someone who could eliminate Traitors, in spite of said traitor's more than likely having a significant Hax and AP advantage (Marluxia), as well as the fact they were likely to team up on him (Marluxia and Larxene). She was also going toe to toe with Xion, who should have absorbed several of Sora's techniques, as well as having blatantly copied Saix's power near perfectly without difficulty. This same Kairi also pushed Xemnas on his back foot for a time. Tl:dr, she went from absolute Fodder to a recognizably skilled and competent warrior.

As I've said, it is, admittedly, a little dubious. That being said, it was shown that the world functioned on a linear, unchangable timeline, which Sora broke the rules of by using a power known by most master's in a way none ever expected. Regardless, Xehanort even without the book is a masterful analyzer, able to properly gague how everyone in the verse may react, and using them each to his advantage, yet he still lost to Terra's skill anyways.

I don't want to seem like I'm bashing on Sion myself, but I admantly believe that Roxas show's substantially better Skill via scaling. For senses, Roxas can sense a map in his mind of the area and can pinpoint the enemies location without looking at them (Via the Mini-Map, which is confirmed as not just a gameplay feature.) through all kinds of terrain and even buildings, and in general KH character's are able to sense things on a spiritual level, being able to detect hearts, and even being able to tell there is Darkness in the area with just smell. Roxas's Martial Arts, while we don't see him perform anything directly, he scales against the most talented swordsmen of his verse, and he can assess his enemies remaining Health, aka he can analyze and correctly predict how much more damage he has to deal and how much stamina is left in the enemies tank until he defeats them. I'll give the Power Mimicry feats, though Roxas's own ability to quickly pick up on Sora's techniques and even invent his own is nothing to scoff at.

And another check to Xehanort's skill, hundred's of years before the current KH time, Keyblade Master's of vast power were honing ancient Keyblade Techniques and perfecting powerful, unheard of magics. Their lesson's and techniques were passed down through the hundreds of years, until they reached Xehanort. In comparison to these ancient techniques, Sora's own fully self taught techniques were shown as being blatantly superior to Xehanort's, and, as we know, Roxas defeated Sora in Key to Key combat. These ancient wielder's were the pinnacle of Keyblade warriors in their time, the Foreteller's themselves being inferior to Xehanort in spite of being considered the cream of the crop, accepted as the most powerful of their time with only two exceptions (One of which was their master, who would ALSO be inferior to Xehanort's skill via statements). Back during this time, we see several hundreds of Keyblade wielder's from across the Multiverse as we knew it, each of them being chosen by a Keyblade, which only chooses the most worthy.

So basically,

Only the Most Worthy and Talented had Keyblades
The most talented of the most talented were all masters
All of which were inferior to Xehanort, who received the techniques from those times after they were refined for hundreds of years
Xehanort then proceeds to be lower on the skill scale than The Lingering Will, who got defeated by Sora, who should be physically on par or even weaker then him. Roxas then, while being likely comparable in stats and probably with less hax than Sora, defeated Sora and Disarmed him, in spite of Sora scaling far higher than the Cream of The Crop of the verse.

Keep in mind even the weakest of Keyblade Wielder's were expected by Society to slay Multiple Heartless a day, even the most Clumsy and Weakest of them were held to these standards, being told to slay beings that would prey on anyone else and casually steal their soul if they so much as let one heartless get a good hit in.
 
I already went on a CRT that made it so that speed and intelligence (skill is basically intelligence on combatic fields technically) are unrelated, and it'd be terrible to say the least to merely have Immeasurable characters as more "skilled" than anyone else, because of this learning a lot even in a short timeframe is quite irrelevant compared to what can actually be done.

Also, TBH being in a near-death state and whatever is unquantificable for skill purposes, it sounds more like a stamina/will feat.

If you're going to quantify skill, please give this a read then go over each section to compare the two.

I'm also seeing plenty of KH lore misconceptions, but none of them particularly matter here, so I'm not going to bother correcting them unless I'm asked to.
 
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See, this post is far better than anything you have posted before. Those are now actual skill feats. That said
While it is true that each respective hoard are rather fodder compared to the fighter's, it looks like you're somewhat downplaying Roxas's state of being. Yes, his body wasn't failing on him, but throughout day's we've seen that this weakening has both A, made it harder for him to use the Keyblade's power, and B, has caused him to see Visions/Nightmare's. In addition, the further day's went on, the worse Roxas's mental state became, as he slowly uncovered all the lies he had been told for his entire year of being part of Organization 13. To say that Roxas was mentally being shredded would be a understatement, but even with that he still held the skill to fight off so many enemies with little to no power or hax. Sion may have been at Death's Door, which is commendable, but Roxas's body was slowly becoming fodder in comparison to the physical stats of those he fought, and his mental state was rapidly spiraling into a emotional mess.
Him getting weaker by the day and having nightmares and shit does not compare to Sion fighting looking like this im sorry:

RIqgila.png


This how Sion looked before she went on a solo crusade against an entire army of AG's and Hyperion. That is after she was on wheelchair support, missing organs and suffering from illness. Not only that, I know for a fact that Sion is keeping herself together through skill because it is stated as such:
VzE8Whr.png


This isn't even to mention how, at the beginning of Day's, Roxas was also fighting in spite of being a literal mental baby (He couldn't even formulate more than 2 words, let alone sentences.)
This is a good skill feat, good battle instincts

If this was about speed, Roxas would have her beat by a lightyear- Literally. The speed that character's can perform stunts is less important here than the complexity, keep in mind, as Roxas can literally react to exiting out of a beam of Light, immediately going on the offensive the very moment he exits. That said, I concede that I cannot quite argue againt the complexity of this feat in particular. KH character's rarely do anything as flashy as tossing their sword into the air and catching it at the right moment to block something.
My son in christ, how could you misconstruct/misunderstand that argument so badly. Speed of LEARNING. Which Sion has beat by the fact that she copies and perfects entire combat styles with a signle VIEWING.

It is not a pure skill feat, this is true. Sora had many more hax. But likewise, Xemnas had infinitely more power Hax then Hyperion. It may not be a full skill feat, but clearly Sora would have needed a large degree of Skill to keep up with Xemnas. This also isn't even considering the fact that in most of the Cutscene's I showed, Sora doesn't even use any abilities or hax. It is not 100% skill, but don't write it off as not showing any skill because of that. Sora was fighting someone who had the equivalent to Thousands upon Thousands of soul's, who could have pulled power from all of them. The stakes were blatantly staked against Sora's favor.
It is a worse skill feat because Skill is clearly not the deciding factor in that fight. If it was Xemnas vs Sora but he is restricted to his sword then you would have a better case of a feat, but that is blatantly not true. The difference in physical power is irrelevant when it makes skill logically obselet. You cant bridge a thousands of difference in AP, for example, with skill, you would need hax that allowed you to win. Not only that, you cant give me a concrete difference in the first place. I can. Its in her prime Sion < Hyperion pre Repair > Hyperion Repair >>> Sion in her final duel >>> Sion after getting 80% of her physical stats passivly eroded. And this is not including Hyperions massive powerups that it got TWICE in a single battle. Not only are the odds important, HOW the odds were dealt with is too.

All I'm seeing is just a bunch of names being thrown with one or two feats. Inversely, I gave several feats for why Master Xehanort has a insane amount of skill, and a chain to show how Roxas scales to that pretty comfortably. Garou is a little impressive, but Sora's defending against the Laser's is infinitely more so, especially seeing as he also is only using his sword skills to ward them off.
You gave me multiple Scaling chains and a couple of feats for Xemnas skill. But okay. Scaling chain time as clearly they are so important to you.

Right at the beginning of KR scalings are combat prodigees across the universe. The best of the best of each planets across nummerous planets are handpicked to become Knight Trainees. Knight Trainees are trained for years in combat, tactics and survival. They are Sword fighters in a age of space fleet battles. A regular Knight can keep up with groups of AG's, aliens that can fly, shoot lasers and swarm their target relendlessly. Once they proved themself on planetary wars, they become Master Knights. Master Knights are tasked with running hitsquads against Type Zeroes. Type Zeroes special combat AG's capable of completly annihalating war fleets on their own. The weakest we have seen was a Grade D to C. That thing killed off thousands of soldiers, destroyed multiple warships, fought against dozens of Knights and a Master Knight and killed 5 Knights before it was subdued. Each grade of Type Zero requires varying amounts of Master Knights in order to beat. A S grade took on Humanities ENTIRE Space fleet and multiple Cold Heroes on and required Dry, the current Top Sword to learn actual precognition in order to beat. Cold Heroes are Knights that are walking gods. Only the most skilled and strongest Knights can become one. Then there is the Top Sword, the currently greatest Knight living. Sion was a Cold Hero. She was a Top Sword. She was the first Sword Saint. She was the first to take on a Grade S with no support whatsoever and slay it.

The title Sword Saint makes it clear that in terms of Sword skills, there was only 1 compareable to her. This would put her above Garou Rata, whose kinetic vision allows him to spot irregularities in space and counter them accordingly. Who took on both Sophie Vista and Ralph Paulo, who are Cold Heroes and the founding fathers of the Knight Orders Sword fighting skills, and won. Who can analyze entire Sword Styles, point out their weaknesses and improve them on the spot. Above Pray Mayer, who as a Knight Trainee was so immensly above in skill compared to even Master Knights, that no one even dared to step in to the ring with her. Who in 6 months of training went from 0 combat skills to trashing 13 master martial artists and her adoptive mother, who was remarked to have excellent combat prowess despite regular human strength. Whose Analytical Prediction where so good that the universe fastest Knight could not tag her, stated to be on the level of genuine prophecies. Above Anne Mayer, who was the only Knight capable of keeping up with Pray. Whose analytical prediction allowed her to fight barehanded against dozens of armed Knights, all stronger and faster than her. Against multiple Master Knights that speedblitzed her. Who has complete control over her body allowing her to directly control her nervous systsem, muscles, blood and energy flow.

The character in question, Kairi, started off as little more than a damsel in distress. She blatantly had no skill. After the training, she is comfortably fighting alongside Axel, who was trusted by Xemnas as someone who could eliminate Traitors, in spite of said traitor's more than likely having a significant Hax and AP advantage (Marluxia), as well as the fact they were likely to team up on him (Marluxia and Larxene). She was also going toe to toe with Xion, who should have absorbed several of Sora's techniques, as well as having blatantly copied Saix's power near perfectly without difficulty. This same Kairi also pushed Xemnas on his back foot for a time. Tl:dr, she went from absolute Fodder to a recognizably skilled and competent warrior.

Another actual skill feat. Sions better though, as she went from being a literal child to casually wrecking a veteran knight after 4 weeks of play training (Like how a older sibling pretends to play soccer with their toddler sibling)

I don't want to seem like I'm bashing on Sion myself

I mean... Go ahead? You want her spot.

but I admantly believe that Roxas show's substantially better Skill via scaling.

Scaling from characters with bareley any actual skill feats, on top of himself having barely any skill feats...
For senses, Roxas can sense a map in his mind of the area and can pinpoint the enemies location without looking at them (Via the Mini-Map, which is confirmed as not just a gameplay feature.) through all kinds of terrain and even buildings.

and even being able to tell there is Darkness in the area with just smell

Good senses feats, not superior to Clints though
and in general KH character's are able to sense things on a spiritual level, being able to detect hearts.
Esotheric nonsense that has absolutly nothing to do with skill though.

Roxas's Martial Arts, while we don't see him perform anything directly, he scales against the most talented swordsmen of his verse, and he can assess his enemies remaining Health, aka he can analyze and correctly predict how much more damage he has to deal and how much stamina is left in the enemies tank until he defeats them.
Knights who can grasp Victory literally do the same on top of evolving in skill through battles.

I'll give the Power Mimicry feats, though Roxas's own ability to quickly pick up on Sora's techniques and even invent his own is nothing to scoff at.
No one scoffs at them. But you are arguing for a placement. Your feats shoudnt be scoffable, they should be better than Sions.

And another check to Xehanort's skill, hundred's of years before the current KH time, Keyblade Master's of vast power were honing ancient Keyblade Techniques and perfecting powerful, unheard of magics. Their lesson's and techniques were passed down through the hundreds of years, until they reached Xehanort. In comparison to these ancient techniques, Sora's own fully self taught techniques were shown as being blatantly superior to Xehanort's

Yes yes, The Mayer Style being a martial arts designed to give normal humans the power to weaponize their body, made out of Earths ancient and legendary martial arts, all giving birth to the Mayer Style. And the Pray style that completley revamps and evolves the Mayer Style into a Style so efficient it was considered as main martial arts for the Knight Order despite its incredible difficulty. We are not reading each others posts arent we?

and, as we know, Roxas defeated Sora in Key to Key combat. These ancient wielder's were the pinnacle of Keyblade warriors in their time, the Foreteller's themselves being inferior to Xehanort in spite of being considered the cream of the crop, accepted as the most powerful of their time with only two exceptions (One of which was their master, who would ALSO be inferior to Xehanort's skill via statements). Back during this time, we see several hundreds of Keyblade wielder's from across the Multiverse as we knew it, each of them being chosen by a Keyblade, which only chooses the most worthy.

So scaling chain again, based on "They are great statements"? Now with the added flavour of "Ancient masters"?

So basically,

Only the Most Worthy and Talented had Keyblades
The most talented of the most talented were all masters
All of which were inferior to Xehanort, who received the techniques from those times after they were refined for hundreds of years
Xehanort then proceeds to be lower on the skill scale than The Lingering Will, who got defeated by Sora, who should be physically on par or even weaker then him. Roxas then, while being likely comparable in stats and probably with less hax than Sora, defeated Sora and Disarmed him, in spite of Sora scaling far higher than the Cream of The Crop of the verse.

So what Sion did 2 chains in.

Keep in mind even the weakest of Keyblade Wielder's were expected by Society to slay Multiple Heartless a day, even the most Clumsy and Weakest of them were held to these standards, being told to slay beings that would prey on anyone else and casually steal their soul if they so much as let one heartless get a good hit in.

Yes. Knight Trainees.

Im not going to respond to any posts after this. We are repeating arguments at this point. Make a concise argument post and let others decide.
 
Personally I think Sion has way more concrete feats, so she has my favor to keep her spot. I'll let others weigh in as well, though.
 
Sion FRA.

Roxas may be more skilled in some areas, but it'd be rather questionable to say that he'd be more skilled in general than Sion.
 
Alright, if that wasn't enough, then I concede that I unfortunately cannot formulate a viable enough argument for Roxas. I can already see what would happen if I did try to continue.
 
The difference in physical power is irrelevant when it makes skill logically obselet. You cant bridge a thousands of difference in AP, for example, with skill, you would need hax that allowed you to win.
Aren't you literally making that exact same argument? Saying something isn't valid and doing the same thing is disingenuous.
 
Aren't you literally making that exact same argument? Saying something isn't valid and doing the same thing is disingenuous.
This argument on its own does look bad huh? Lucky me i contextualized and completet it by the end line of that paragraph. But in case you missed it, let me repeat. "Not only are the odds important, HOW they are dealt with is too"
 
Either miscellaneouse or multi skills martials art one

Taskmaster can got spot as he can even used martial arts that ape based
humanoid never hope to done and must need lighter and strengthen your bones and unlock parts of human brains that we never use (may be even Gnostic tortures too).

J'kramak K'ythri reference
 
Taskmaster is already on the list in the Misc section.
well I saw only Bullseye
(Or my mobile got any problems?)
he is nothing compared
to Godlike Tony
his accuracy is a useless candle
while Tony copied J'Kramak is like a sunshine alone
put him far far above his pupil.

J'kramak can't copied by anyone
on Earth (that never used drugs and surgeon one brain parts) but he can
do it by only observed 1 or 2 mins.

How Bullseye compared to his teacher
in this field ?
 
IDK about comic stuff.
For me Tony should 2nd
spot his intelligence
is extraordinary genius (martial arts
alone) mean he is far far smarter
than even someone like
Capt America Wolvarine
Shang chi Iron fist Thing Hercules Thor etc (despite suffer amnesia)
who
genius themself at martials
arts and weapons master.
The boys above know in many ways
of martial arts and weapons than just throwing objects like Bulleyes.

Tony mind (his brain) far far above
any human in martial arts even
nearly or on par Karate Kid of DC.

He copied martial arts of Bird
while he is monkey this alone
made him insaneful badass at
Martial arts
Please add him at 2nd spot misc one.

He is GOD of martial arts in Marvel.
 
"The time has come. The door of darkness is cast open, and the world advances to a new field…"-Shadow


Can Shadow go here somewhere? While writing this found more skill feats for this guy, getting absurd at this point...
 
Under swords i guess, albeit the dude has mastered countless martial arts, including hand to hand combat, but he primarily fights with a sword.
 
Under swords i guess, albeit the dude has mastered countless martial arts, including hand to hand combat, but he primarily fights with a sword.
He'd go in swords then, yeah.

You'll need to argue against other characters on the list to get him there, though.
 
"The time has come. The door of darkness is cast open, and the world advances to a new field…"-Shadow


Can Shadow go here somewhere? While writing this found more skill feats for this guy, getting absurd at this point...
Know jack about this dude, but from the intelligence section, I don't think he's beating Sion, at all.
 
Tasky is good but he isn't that good, Cap wrecked his shit just by changing up his style mid fight so that way Tasky couldn't copy and counter his moves.


Consistently changing up your rhythm and moves will **** Tasky over big time.
 
If that's really all it takes for Task to get ****** over Yu literally ******* annihilates him.
 
Okubro would be Tasky's hard counter tbh, if Yu can switch styles instantly then he should be able to smash Tasky's face in the same way Cap did.
 
It's less about switching styles and more about having full control over his own rhythm/flow, as all combat "geniuses" in The Boxer have. He still has a style primarily rooted in boxing but he has the ability to control the tempo, which even low-tier geniuses in The Boxer have.
 
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