Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[Bobsican]

Still waiting for Bayonetta so I can have a good match-up once the inevitable 2-A stuff appears.

 

[Ballsdeep69]

Just gonna nominate Zero for the swordsman category and you can read his intelligence section for my reasoning/skill list.

 

[azontr]

The intelligence section that does not know paragraphs.

 

[Bobsican]

The one in the fifth spot makes Zero look like fodder TBH, make a skill match if anything.

 

[azontr]

Why are you sicking One Peace fans on me like that.

You'll be fine, Witchy.

 

[First_Witch]

misread.

I thought he meant Zoro, was in fight or flight mode for a moment lol

 

[azontr]

Well, Mega Man fans are better than One Piece fans.

 

[First_Witch]

He can try, but I rather not read a whole wall with more words than Sions entire page (Gonna fix that ugly thing someday)

 

[azontr]

Don't worry, I'll fix the verse for you when I start reading Knight Run, witchy.

 

[First_Witch]

Don't worry, I'll fix the verse for you when I start reading Knight Run, witchy.

Arent you a treat today. I may even reconsider the divorce if you continue

 

[azontr]

bumping

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Seeing as Sora was discussed here, I'd just like to Nominate Roxas for the Swordsman. Roxas doesn't quite have the same adaptable Skill as Sora (Who can use... Many, many kinds of weapons.), But he did straight up outskill Sora in Key to Key combat in KH2. Roxas also defeated Riku in Key to Key combat in Days. With just one Keyblade, he also outskilled the likes of Saix, and even Xion, who should have been much stronger than him at the time logically speaking. Roxas is shown capable of using a number of the same techniques as Sora, as well as his own unique Two-Keyblade style. He is shown to grow vastly over the course of just a year, going from the Org's Mindless Lackey, to taking on Saix and Riku, and winning, showing great growth. He also appeared in KH3, and still beat down a now much more powerful Saix, as well as having thrown down with Xemnas in Remind.

I adamantly believe that Roxas is more skilled than Sora when it comes to just normal Keyblades, but even if he isn't, he's likely a very close second.

 

[First_Witch]

You would have to argue not against Sora but against fith place Swordsman though.

If you think Roxas can stack up against Sion then be my guest, try it

 

[azontr]

Damn Witch is on the war path today.

 

[First_Witch]

Damn Witch is on the war path today.

People shall put some respect on Sions name

 

[Bobsican]

TBH Sora is more skilled than Roxas as he can triple wield Keyblades unlike him and straight up has the same moveset as him but better with Double Form, although he could keep up with the first case even so.

Skill wise I'd advocate for Xehanort being more skilled given that he has better feats and overall scaling on that regard, but in terms of legality for the swordmen section (Xehanort also transforms the Keyblade like Sora, lol) he'd probably be the best pick in the series, yeah.

Still make a skill match for the current 5th spot tho.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Alright then.
To start my argument, I'll let Roxas's Intelligence on his wiki page speak for me first


"Roxas, despite his relatively brief existence, has amassed the combat skills of both Sora and Ventus, dual-wielding Keyblades to great effect even against Keyblade Master-level opponents. He is more brutal and aggressive than Sora, forgoing any form of defense outside of Light Shields in favor of pure offense, attacking with fast and powerful series of wild swings that seek to crush the target without resistance. He has managed to outmatch several of the most powerful characters in the series in Keyblade combat, disarming Sora, forcing Riku to release his blindfold and use the powers of Ansem, and outright defeating Saix, Axel, and Xion, the latter of whom had most of his power at the time. He is also incredibly skilled with both light and darkness magic, unleashing torrents of both with each swing of his Keyblades and firing out swift light arrays to block and attacks and to corner foes he can't defeat with brute force alone. However, his aggression and treatment as a non-individual by non-Nobodies has left him bitter and careless at times, leading to his defeat when he allowed Riku to remove his blindfold and gave Sora the opportunity to retrieve his Keyblade when he misunderstood its "summon-to-hand" mechanic while it was pinned"

I will admit, this does have a couple of anti-feats, but that was more connected with Roxas's Emotions and mental state at the time (He was Heavily Distraught, because of Xion's death in Day's, and because of being stripped of his Existence, or Lack there of, in II.)

Roxas is shown taking on Sora directly, and disarming him. It would be easy to say that, if not for Sora's quick thinking of summoning his Keyblade, Roxas could have very well had Sora beaten. And likewise, he had Riku dead to rights, and would have won if he didn't let Riku remove his Blindfold. During Remind, he took on Xemnas, as stated before. Xemnas, who is the nobody of Terranort, should have a massive amount of Knowledge, Experience, and Skill, seeing as he was made from the Amnesiac fusion of Xehanort and Terra (Xehanort's mind, who, was seen as a Prodigy by most, and even as his Young Self already had the skill to take on Riku and Sora), and Terra's body (A body forged over the years by Eraqus's Training, one which was teeming with Darkness while it still had Xehanort and Terra's Heart's). Xemnas is shown able to Toy around with KH1 Sora, and in KH2, he is shown using several forms expertly well- He can easily manipulate a large Dragon ship, manipulate each of the Organization Member's weapons with telekinetic ease, and in his Final Form, took on the combined might of Sora and Riku, showing Graceful yet Decisively Powerful Movement in his attacks, and outperforming both Sora and Riku in several possible Reaction Command's throughout his battles (Assuming that you don't succeed the commands.)

Roxas's Instinctive Action could be seen as a form of natural talent/skill (Though that's more dubious and, probably doesn't make much sense), he can properly ascertain the enemy's remaining stamina via Scan, and plan accprdingly, Roxas has several Unique Keyblade Techniques, that which you can see on his profile...

And keep in mind- Roxas was only in the KHverse for 1 year, while he did most of these feats. When he returned in KH3, he somehow must have gotten better, because he was kicking Xemnas around like a paperweight. Imagine how much more powerful he could get if he had more time? His potential for growth is pretty clearly vast in both Power and, importantly for this, Skill.

Oh, and a little more about the Xion and First Saix fights. Throughout the course of day's, Xion is absorbing Roxas's power. Roxas, who even without Xion absorbing from him, was already far from his max power. We see this affect Roxas in numerous ways- He fell into a coma at one point, and he was plagued by visions of Sora and Dream's about... A lot of weird stuff with Zexion. And in addition, Axel, who he knew was his best Friend, Roxas ended up finding out he kept a significant lie to him, feeling utterly betrayed and distraught, leaving a likely large mental debuff. Even with these significant debuff's though, he still beat Saix, who was Xemnas's second choice for his Right Hand Man, and arguably one of the most skilled fighter's at the time (Even when he goes Berserk, Saix is still capable of more complex attack patterns). Xion then drains even more power from Roxas, Roxas then feeling even more hurt and betrayed after seeing Xion transform and use all of his power against him, and even with this utterly annihilated Mental State and Near Fodder Physical State, he still, albeit somewhat hesitantly, defeated Xion.

So even when at a significant disadvantage and having his Emotion's be utterly played with, Roxas still manages to outperform and succeed amongst his Peers in KH.

In KH3, he is also shown fighting directly alongside Sora, the same Sora who had defeated character's such as Terranort and Vanitas. Terranort, who had Xehanort's Mind, was one of the most skilled character's in the entire series (Master Xehanort was stated as the Strongest of all Master's at one point. As a Keyblade Master, he scales above the likes of Aqua and Terra in skill directly, and likely scales above Eraqus's skill. Xehanort is shown effortlessly adapting to several fighting styles throughout his many incarnations, and he is stated numerous times to be a gifted prodigy, even as his Young Self alone.) Vanitas also directly could challenge Aqua, in spite of the impication that he should have been weaker than her during BBS (Vanitas was the dark half of Ventus, who was shown as not quite being Master Material, in contrast to Aqua, who became a Master). Even so, Roxas was shown Keeping up with this Sora to some extent, in game play and, to a lesser extent, out.

And in Re:Mind, when fighting Xemnas and Saix, his only backup is Xion and a Heavily Tired out Axel, due to Sora and Kairi ending up trapped. Even so, Roxas still managed to drive back Xemnas, and force him to release the two.

I will admit some of this could be questioned and challenged, but I think this is a solid case for why Roxas could be above Sion. I skimmed through the feats listed in the first message and, while I didn't look through them thoroughly admittedly, it looks like Roxas proooobably has more skill.

 

[First_Witch]

Ehm, am I missing something or is most of what you have posted not even in the same ballpark as Sion? Like I will sound incredibly biased and I am, as I know nothing of KH, but you threw names at me whom I have 0 knowledge off. All I'm seeing is Roxas outskilling characters who outskill other characters who are skilled... Because? Like, what are his skill feats that arent just being better than other characters? Something Sion has in a inter galactic scale by the way.

I will post a more indepth counter in a couple hours, but I genuinly dont get how most of that is even compareable to Sion

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I agree with Witch, you'd be best posting actual combat feats, skill doesn't work like AP, you probably could start with something like being above Xion, who can do this.

Although I should say the same for Sion, while a ton of lore and details make some feats particularly impressive, I think they'd become more valuable with visuals to display how they are in practice, an image says more than 1000 words after all.

 

[azontr]

Currently reading Knight Run and gathering as many on-screen feats to substantiate the statements as I can. Though Sion, even with just lore, statements, and details, is still above whatever tf King is posting lol.

 

[First_Witch]

Although I should say the same for Sion, while a ton of lore and details make some feats particularly impressi
ve, I think they'd become more valuable with visuals to display how they are in practice, an image says more than 1000 words after all.

I mean I can do that, the problem is that the scans either just repeat what i already wrote (Or to be more correct, I repeat what the series gives me word for word) or are just so big that I might as well link the entire chapter.

And I would have to hunt for them as I used them across threads.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I will admit, most of my argument does rely heavily on a skill scaling chain, in comparison to Sion showing some more outright feats. Unfortunately, we don't get nearly as many fights with Roxas in them as we do Sora, but seeing as Roxas has shown the ability to disarm and outskill Sora, and Sora has some previously stated feats in terms of Skill, that should more than likely be somewhat sufficient as evidence. Though, after some thought and digging, some more feats:

- To understand the first feat, you need to understand the Heartless: Beings who populate the worlds, they are governed by instinct. Being capable of stealing soul's with ease, one wrong move against even just one of them for the average person, and you're dead. Heartless, by default, would in character immediately go for any kill they can see, as their only goal is to gather more soul's (Or Hearts in KH terminology). Roxas spent a full year fighting these hell spawn daily, encountering many different kinds (Flying Heartless, Parasitic Heartless, Invisible Heartless, Possessive Heartless, a Heartless Shaped like a War Machine that was going to ram into a castle, etc. ...) And Roxas would have had to adapt to each of these Heartless's different gimmicks.

- Roxas in Day's was shown to be proficient with a number of different Spells, learning how to use each of them effectively. Though not as many as Sora, it's still impressive, as it only took him a few day's to learn basic magic, whereas Donald, who is supposed to be a trained court wizard in KH1, begins with just basic Magic (Note: This could very well just be a massive Gameplan distinction, in which case I can definitely concede that Donald part. Regardless, he learned his magic fairly quickly.)

- Roxas is shown manipulating Multiple Light Shields/Ray's of Light around the battlefield to attack Sora while also still using his Twin Keyblade's towards the end of their fight, showing a good capacity for multi-tasking in the middle of Combat.

- Here's Roxas fighting Neoshadow's in Cutscene
From between 0:48 to about 1:20, we see Roxas expertly taking on a Horde of these Mindless, Instinctual Heartless. Manuvering through them with relative ease, he holds a airtight defense, and is shown being able to perform moves that cleave through several of these heartless, with just one movement (Most Notably, how he throw's the Keyblade in such a way that it would hit 3 or so Heartless on it's way back).

- And here's his fight against Sora in Cutscene
From about 0:35 onward. We see Sora and Roxas clash on pretty equal ground through the first part of the fight. Of particular note, at 1:42, Roxas forces Sora to dodge his attacks numerous times, pushing Sora on the defensive and making him block him, allowing Roxas to disarm him. After this, the actual fighting is essentially over, as the rest is Sora surprising Roxas, and then a bunch of dialogue. Sora, as stated earlier, is already spoken for in this thread.

- And here, a video pertaining to reaction commands.
While the first 4 are Roxas's RC's, and are somewhat relevant, after that the only important stuff is from 2:45 forward. The RC's in question are:

Finish (Fail) (2:45)
Reversal (4:11)
Defend (4:55)

In the first one, we see Xemnas Punishing Sora. In the Second, we see Xemnas expertly manipulating Thorny-Like Nothingness attacks in correlation with his own Physical attacks, of which we see he is both skilled enough to use several kicks as well as his Laser Blades. Sora, of course, Dodges, but that just serves as a further testament to the Skill Chain and Roxas's place on it. In the final one, we see that Xemnas can find a weakness in Sora's defense and heavily punish him swiftly for it, forcing Riku to step in and help Sora, and even with that, at most they get a Neutral Situation after that, and at worst Xemnas still hurts the both of them.

A even stronger and likely more skilled Xemnas than this is the one previously mentioned as being fought by Roxas, who not once during their fight let's Xemnas get such a upper hand.


- And here, I have a list of videos of someone else actually breaking down Roxas's Combat:

Here for KH2 Playable Roxas (The combat starts at 1:16)
Here for KH3 Roxas
And last but not least, Here for 358/2 Day's Roxas (Starts around 2:00) (Sorry, this one in particular is rather long cause Roxas's combo always changes with different Keyblades!)

As I hope one can see, more so when Roxas is Dual Wielding, Roxas show's rather good technique and skill with wielding two Keyblades, while in verse there are many who have difficulty using just one. Roxas is also very versatile, able to change his combat Subtly to play by the Keyblade he's using's best strength's.

Tbh I still think that, even though they are harder to explain, his feats of fighting certain other character's are still better for his Skill than a handful of these feats, but it would be rather tedious to list every character's skill in detail... Regardless, here ya go.

 

[azontr]

Well, I didn't expect the thread to be revived by a KH debate, but, I'm here for it.

 

[Shmooply]

I am glad to be one of the first in history to see KH fans contributing something positive in a community for once.

 

[First_Witch]

The bane of being number 5 is everyones going for your head...

I will admit, most of my argument does rely heavily on a skill scaling chain, in comparison to Sion showing some more outright feats. Unfortunately, we don't get nearly as many fights with Roxas in them as we do Sora, but seeing as Roxas has shown the ability to disarm and outskill Sora, and Sora has some previously stated feats in terms of Skill, that should more than likely be somewhat sufficient as evidence. Though, after some thought and digging, some more feats:

Sion has him beat in Skill scaling chains as well to be honest. Literal fodders in Knight Run are combat prodigees across countless planets and Sion is literal magnitudes above them. Sion scales above so many characters in skill specificly that it is not even funny

You might want to hit me up with Soras feats as well then, I dont know them

- To understand the first feat, you need to understand the Heartless: Beings who populate the worlds, they are governed by instinct. Being capable of stealing soul's with ease, one wrong move against even just one of them for the average person, and you're dead. Heartless, by default, would in character immediately go for any kill they can see, as their only goal is to gather more soul's (Or Hearts in KH terminology). Roxas spent a full year fighting these hell spawn daily, encountering many different kinds (Flying Heartless, Parasitic Heartless, Invisible Heartless, Possessive Heartless, a Heartless Shaped like a War Machine that was going to ram into a castle, etc. ...) And Roxas would have had to adapt to each of these Heartless's different gimmicks.

Sion, in a near death state, has walzed through thousands of AG's in a single battle as well. While AG's dont possess innate one shot potential as Heartless, AG's are quite easily far more skilled compared to Hearthless. AG's have shown battle tactics, skill in combat and even skill growth throughout their life. That he was fighting them for years is not a skill argument and is not more impressive than Sion being send nonstop to multiple planetary wars since childhood.

- Roxas in Day's was shown to be proficient with a number of different Spells, learning how to use each of them effectively. Though not as many as Sora, it's still impressive, as it only took him a few day's to learn basic magic, whereas Donald, who is supposed to be a trained court wizard in KH1, begins with just basic Magic (Note: This could very well just be a massive Gameplan distinction, in which case I can definitely concede that Donald part. Regardless, he learned his magic fairly quickly.)

I... Dont see the skill feat? Is it learning speed? Combat creativity? Against Sion, who can perfectly copy techniques from other people? One of them being from soneone who trained the technique for decades and got it stolen after showing it to her one single time. Or the same Sion, who can copy a dead show martial art and determine the purpose of every move, stance and transition, making it combat useable again. Even going so far as to completly revamp it and make it her destinct sword style.

- Roxas is shown manipulating Multiple Light Shields/Ray's of Light around the battlefield to attack Sora while also still using his Twin Keyblade's towards the end of their fight, showing a good capacity for multi-tasking in the middle of Combat.

Sion, in a fight against an armee of AG's and Hyperion kicked her sword in such a way that it beheaded a AG diving onto her, decimate the rest of the army with energy blades and have her Sword fall back into her hand for a counterstrike in the middle of Hyperion teleporting at her.

- Here's Roxas fighting Neoshadow's in Cutscene
From between 0:48 to about 1:20, we see Roxas expertly taking on a Horde of these Mindless, Instinctual Heartless. Manuvering through them with relative ease, he holds a airtight defense, and is shown being able to perform moves that cleave through several of these heartless, with just one movement (Most Notably, how he throw's the Keyblade in such a way that it would hit 3 or so Heartless on it's way back).

This is the same argument as above, see the reply above

- And here's his fight against Sora in Cutscene
From about 0:35 onward. We see Sora and Roxas clash on pretty equal ground through the first part of the fight. Of particular note, at 1:42, Roxas forces Sora to dodge his attacks numerous times, pushing Sora on the defensive and making him block him, allowing Roxas to disarm him. After this, the actual fighting is essentially over, as the rest is Sora surprising Roxas, and then a bunch of dialogue. Sora, as stated earlier, is already spoken for in this thread.

See inquiry at the beginning of the post

- And here, a video pertaining to reaction commands.
While the first 4 are Roxas's RC's, and are somewhat relevant, after that the only important stuff is from 2:45 forward. The RC's in question are:

Finish (Fail) (2:45)
Reversal (4:11)
Defend (4:55)

In the first one, we see Xemnas Punishing Sora. In the Second, we see Xemnas expertly manipulating Thorny-Like Nothingness attacks in correlation with his own Physical attacks, of which we see he is both skilled enough to use several kicks as well as his Laser Blades. Sora, of course, Dodges, but that just serves as a further testament to the Skill Chain and Roxas's place on it. In the final one, we see that Xemnas can find a weakness in Sora's defense and heavily punish him swiftly for it, forcing Riku to step in and help Sora, and even with that, at most they get a Neutral Situation after that, and at worst Xemnas still hurts the both of them.

A even stronger and likely more skilled Xemnas than this is the one previously mentioned as being fought by Roxas, who not once during their fight let's Xemnas get such a upper hand.

I guess Roxas has Instinctive Reactions over Sion. The Xenmas fights looks cool, but I dont see how this is more impressive than Sion fighting against Hyperion with nothing but a Sword when Hyperion had: A oneshotting Spear, passive stats reduction making Sion fight with only 20% of her physical strenght ON top of being a walking corpse, near Danmaku amount of oneshotting spears, laser drones, an army of AGs, 2 Revives each with a powerboosts, teleportation through hyperspeed movement, being a skilled spear fighter that fought against SionGeneral Grievous style and a aura that slowly kills and decomposes you? All happening in a single, no break fight?

- And here, I have a list of videos of someone else actually breaking down Roxas's Combat:

Here for KH2 Playable Roxas (The combat starts at 1:16)
Here for KH3 Roxas
And last but not least, Here for 358/2 Day's Roxas (Starts around 2:00) (Sorry, this one in particular is rather long cause Roxas's combo always changes with different Keyblades!)

As I hope one can see, more so when Roxas is Dual Wielding, Roxas show's rather good technique and skill with wielding two Keyblades, while in verse there are many who have difficulty using just one. Roxas is also very versatile, able to change his combat Subtly to play by the Keyblade he's using's best strength's.

Tbh I still think that, even though they are harder to explain, his feats of fighting certain other character's are still better for his Skill than a handful of these feats, but it would be rather tedious to list every character's skill in detail... Regardless, here ya go.

Sions Sword techniques are so refined that they are rendered practicly invisible through technique, a effect not achieveable by speed. Sion earned the title Sword Saint, awarded to the greatest Swordsman in the entire universe and was one of only 2 to have ever wielded that title in humanitys history. She can reflect the physical force behind attacks through martial arts, can predict enemies with more than blitz worthy speed amps (See Hyperion), has grown immensly in skill through a single battle (Went from barely stalemating Hyperion with a far healthier body to killing it 3 times through 2 revives and powerups back to back without a single break), she can copy entire martial arts with a single viewing, outskilled her pupil who trained for decades while Sion was frozen casually and effortlessly, a character who can pinpoint the location of his enemy he knows nothing about with nothing but his senses through a multistory building full with other humans, who can even tell their gender by how they walk, who can redirect his sword strikes midstrike wherever he wants, who can cut the arm off opponents multiple stories away with his senses. Sion has learned the Mayer and Pray Style, the Mayer Style being a legendary hand to hand martial arts made up of all of humanities ancient and modern fighting styles and the Pray Style being a even more effective evolution of the Mayer Style. Had become Top Sword, a title awarded to the greatest living Knight just with 2 years of Knightage service, making her the second fastest Top Sword to have ever lived. Whooped a experienced Knight after 4 weeks of pretend training while she was a child. Knocked a Zail nobleman, genetically enhanced superhumans, who could nuke the entire battlefield with a single attack by hitting him in vital spots as child

 

[First_Witch]

Man, I cant wait till I get to revamp Sions profile and just slap those paragraphs onto her intelligence section, so I dont have to ever write them again

 

[azontr]

TFW reading Witch's skill dickeating spoils me on a portion of Knight Run

 

[Bobsican]

I am glad to be one of the first in history to see KH fans contributing something positive in a community for once.

I mean, KH nowadays is a mainstream series even outside vs debating, especially with Sora getting in Smash, and still is the strongest Disney series skipping Marvel, please don't ditch hard-effort on managing indexing and controversial stuff like that.

 

[First_Witch]

TFW reading Witch's skill dickeating spoils me on a portion of Knight Run

The Hyperion fight is hype, regardless of wether or not you know what goes down in it

And please dont read anything KR related from older threads if you havent finished the Pray Arc

 

[azontr]

I haven't finished it lol, been hard procrastinating + reading/writing other stuff. So I'll take your advice.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Id like to see if Capricorn Shura has a possibility of entering a spot for Swordsman (or er maybe martial arts? you see.. his body is the holy sword exalibur)

giving a quick run down.

- All Saints are trained in every martial arts at a very young age including sword techniques like the Tararus Saint for example who doesn't even use a sword but incorporates the iai technique for his "great horn ability." Additionally, there is unconvential and additional pressure points on saints that spells certain death if struck. |||| shura is no exception to this.

- A Saints skill at adapting to an opponent is excellent. They just need to see a technique once and they can counter it the next time.

- Saints can additionally take brutal injuries and still continue to fight (which should already listed on their profiles) and shura is no exception to this either. He lost both his arms and his legs and was still using his body as the holy sword Excalibur to continue fighting.

- A true swordsman can predict up to 30% of oncoming attacks, but Roland could predict with accuracy greater than 90%. Shura countered Roland's analytical prediction with his eyes closed. Roland could analytically predict an infinitude of outcomes/futures.

- even before that he was already doing a great job countering Roland's attacks that had Analytical Prediction involved with them. Some of these attacks were omnidirectional homing attacks and a Danmaku (should be in the link above)

- Despite Saints having mastered many different types of martial arts style. Shura still creates new attacks when fighting Saints from other worlds whom have seen many techniques to counter as they fought in many battles. The Gladiators are an excellent example as they are Saints from another world, and they went from World to World to conquer god knows how many other universes.

Edit: imgur messed up and made some of the scans in the links out of order. fack

---

Edit 2:

Adding more to Capricorn Shura here.

Capricorn Shura got stuck in a limbo state where he was forced to fight for eternity to save infinite worlds.

無限に存在する「現在」を救う為永久に闘う「修羅」と化したのか?

Translation:
Have you become an ashura who fights eternally in order to save the
infinite worlds/presents(?)
Translated here

無限に存在する多次元宇宙

その世界に広がる水遠の滅びの中で

別の世界の自分すら倒し

未来を変える道を探し続けた先に辿り着く境地

translation:

The infinite multidimensional universes.

In the perdition of the watery distance that spreads over that world.

I have defeated even my own self in another world.

The state that is reached when one continues to search for a way to change the future.

even fought other worldly variants of his own self.

So, he has a literal eternity/infinity of battle experience. Including fighting variations of himself within the multiverse.

---

Analytical prediction wise. He's near 100%. He out scales someone who has ">90% accuracy."

Said Analytical Predictions involves predicting how the opponent will move


Both Roland and Shura go into it in detail on how they predict each other moves. Shura had to out predict the predicter.

---

Edit 3:

Shura was completely paralyzed from a brain injury that gave him vertical shock, but he was still able to counter attack despite being paralyzed

A bit of a continuation of the above. This was a counter attack to a technique he never even seen before. A technique never even used on him or anyone else. he had no knowledge on it but he already Analytically predicted it. He then reflected the technique back by applying the same technique the Titan just used.

on top of that, he even counter attacked while in a state of unconsciousness.

---

Shura also countered, blocked, and deflected an omnidirectional infinite attack. twice.

on top of that all saints possess the 6th sense. This Extra Sense is "instinct" allowing them to know of danger before it hits them. Instinct gets stronger the more experience one accumulates in their life.

Capricorn Shura had to rely on his higher senses that he honed through his many battles in the infinite worlds, and his speed to parry infinite attacks that came from all directions. Literal infinite omnidirectional attacks. He did this with only a finite speed.


Also, regarding his analytical predictions. Shura out-predicted a man who could precog infinite possible futures.

Summary;

- All Saints are trained in every martial arts at a very young age including sword techniques like the Tararus Saint for example who doesn't even use a sword but incorporates the iai technique for his "great horn ability." Additionally, there is unconvential and additional pressure points on saints that spells certain death if struck. |||| shura is no exception to this.

- A Saints skill at adapting to an opponent is excellent. They just need to see a technique once, and they can counter it the next time.

- Saints can additionally take brutal injuries and still continue to fight (which should already listed on their profiles) and shura is no exception to this either. He lost both his arms and his legs and was still using his body as the holy sword Excalibur to continue fighting.

- A true swordsman can predict up to 30% of oncoming attacks, but Roland could predict with accuracy greater than 90%. Shura countered Roland's analytical prediction with his eyes closed. he out predicted the predicter who could predict an infinitude of possibilities.

- even before that he was already doing a great job countering Roland's attacks that had Analytical Prediction involved with them. Some of these attacks were omnidirectional homing attacks and a Danmaku (should be in the link above)

- Despite Saints having mastered many different types of martial arts style. Shura still creates new attacks when fighting Saints from other worlds whom have seen many techniques to counter as they fought in many battles. The Gladiators are an excellent example as they are Saints from another world, and they went from World to World to conquer god knows how many other universes.

- He has infinite battle experience from fighting (NOT FODDERS but high tiers) life and death battles in infinite worlds. honestly its probably uncountably infinite considering the verses cosmology but meh

- he can counter attack despite being paralyzed, or suffering from severe brain injuries, and he can be missing all his limbs except his head and still fight. he could have a freaking hole in chest and still fight on. He could be missing more than half of all the blood in his body and still fight on.

- His 6th sense which has been honed through training, and the many battles he has had in his life, will give him an advantage. It acts sort of like a spider sense. It screams "Danger" and tells him where the danger is, and how strong it is, and the best method to avoid it.

- He can copy techniques, and even counter said copied techniques instantly. He can even copy techniques he has never seen before, never heard of before, and is not a known martial art for mortals, by predicting you could do the technique via Analytical predictions.

- He has also countered, parried, blocked, and deflected an omni-directional infinite attack with just finite speed relying on purely his skill.

Tldr; by precog i mean analytical prediction was typing fast.

I created some more edits to Shura added some stuff in. might add more later, and make some edits. been a while since i did this. im going on vacation soon.


Edit:
This link is just for purposes of linking back to this comment

https://vsbattles.com/threads/warriors-of-heaven-and-hell-the-most-skilled-on-the-wiki.140980/post-5177983

Edit 2:
More information on Shura vs Roland is coming soon

 

[First_Witch]

I haven't finished it lol, been hard procrastinating + reading/writing other stuff. So I'll take your advice.

I rather wait until Knight Fall is finished until I ship Annes rework, in case it is worth doing a new key, so take all the time you need. Just saying that both the Pray arc and the Sion arc should be experienced as blind as possible

 

[azontr]

I created some more edits to Shura added some stuff in. might add more later, and make some edits. been a while since i did this. im going on vacation soon.

Will check it out.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Will check it out.

It's stoll old so some stuff that I mistake that could have been valid but wasn't which might still be on it. Busy irl atm.

 

[First_Witch]

If anyone takes a swing at Sion again (Please dont), then please not today. I need sleep. Tomorrow?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If anyone takes a swing at Sion again (Please dont), then please not today. I need sleep. Tomorrow?

I would attempt again but Shura has new stuff coming soon and I'm on vacation + work + developing line I blogs and multiple calcs for Saint seiya so not anytime soon for me

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

If anyone takes a swing at Sion again (Please dont), then please not today. I need sleep. Tomorrow?

Since you need sleep, I'll send my response tomorrow, have a good night.

 

[First_Witch]

Since you need sleep, I'll send my response tomorrow, have a good night.

Hit me up

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Sion has him beat in Skill scaling chains as well to be honest. Literal fodders in Knight Run are combat prodigees across countless planets and Sion is literal magnitudes above them. Sion scales above so many characters in skill specificly that it is not even funny

You might want to hit me up with Soras feats as well then, I dont know them

Here, allow me to have our friend do the work for me: Sora's feat's, as stated earlier in the thread

Sion, in a near death state, has walzed through thousands of AG's in a single battle as well. While AG's dont possess innate one shot potential as Heartless, AG's are quite easily far more skilled compared to Hearthless. AG's have shown battle tactics, skill in combat and even skill growth throughout their life. That he was fighting them for years is not a skill argument and is not more impressive than Sion being send nonstop to multiple planetary wars since childhood.

One, it was only across one Year that Roxas fought, and beat down, those heartless. He was fighting hoards of them constantly throughout his time across the vast Multiverse of KH, and Heartless, while Instinctually driven, are shown to work in a pack mentality, choosing to fight alongside each other to fight their prey. In addition, certain Heartless, like the Green Rhapsody, show a higher degree of capacity for teamwork, being able to heal fellow Heartless. There are also several other Heartless that show a higher capacity for intellect in general, such as the Behemoth, who will attempt to shake off things off it's back, where they can easily access it's weak point. I can concede that most sentient beings are capable of being more skilled than Heartless, but saying that taking on multiple of these creatures who are more than willing to just gang bang you is not a skill argument is a bit inaccurate imo. Also keep in mind that throughout day's, Roxas was constantly getting weaker, while the Heartless he fought were only getting stronger and more creative.

I... Dont see the skill feat? Is it learning speed? Combat creativity? Against Sion, who can perfectly copy techniques from other people? One of them being from soneone who trained the technique for decades and got it stolen after showing it to her one single time. Or the same Sion, who can copy a dead show martial art and determine the purpose of every move, stance and transition, making it combat useable again. Even going so far as to completly revamp it and make it her destinct sword style.

Yes, it's learning speed. Maybe not as fast as Sion, but still notable for his total Skill. Another thing to consider is that Roxas seems to have adopted several of Sora's move's through both Pure Instinct and seeing some memories of Sora's. Thus is heavily implied more so in KH2, where Roxas was basically reset to being low Level, not too powerful, but he was already learning how to use a basic toy weapon in a similar manner to how Sora used his weapons.

Sion, in a fight against an armee of AG's and Hyperion kicked her sword in such a way that it beheaded a AG diving onto her, decimate the rest of the army with energy blades and have her Sword fall back into her hand for a counterstrike in the middle of Hyperion teleporting at her.



This is the same argument as above, see the reply above

Very impressive, I will admit.

I guess Roxas has Instinctive Reactions over Sion. The Xenmas fights looks cool, but I dont see how this is more impressive than Sion fighting against Hyperion with nothing but a Sword when Hyperion had: A oneshotting Spear, passive stats reduction making Sion fight with only 20% of her physical strenght ON top of being a walking corpse, near Danmaku amount of oneshotting spears, laser drones, an army of AGs, 2 Revives each with a powerboosts, teleportation through hyperspeed movement, being a skilled spear fighter that fought against SionGeneral Grievous style and a aura that slowly kills and decomposes you? All happening in a single, no break fight?

Then allow me to clarify a little:
Xemnas, in the first fight, is admittedly lackluster.
However, after that, in his white and black coat, he has absorbed a Artificial Kingdom Hearts. Being claimed to be a threat to all the worlds, he was seeking to remake the Multiverse in his (And, technically Xehanort's) image. A single Heart alone in KH is stated to be incalculable, and the derivative of most strength/power in the verse, and now Xemnas had at least over 50,000 (This, is probably even a massive underestimation), and was using Kingdom Heart's full power against Sora and Riku. Essentially, they were fighting god, and still managed to beat him through teamwork. Xemnas during the fight was also throwing Fully Dense Buildings, using a Dragon to shoot Laser's, and in the final phase, he was summoning Existence Erasing Orb's and Laser's, and was also consistently using Mirages of himself to either confuse the opponent's or multitask. Xemnas from the fight with Roxas should retain a portion of these abilities, and at the very least we know that in all fights, it's in character for him to spam Existence Erasing Laser's and Orb's consistently.

Sions Sword techniques are so refined that they are rendered practicly invisible through technique, a effect not achieveable by speed. Sion earned the title Sword Saint, awarded to the greatest Swordsman in the entire universe and was one of only 2 to have ever wielded that title in humanitys history. She can reflect the physical force behind attacks through martial arts, can predict enemies with more than blitz worthy speed amps (See Hyperion), has grown immensly in skill through a single battle (Went from barely stalemating Hyperion with a far healthier body to killing it 3 times through 2 revives and powerups back to back without a single break), she can copy entire martial arts with a single viewing, outskilled her pupil who trained for decades while Sion was frozen casually and effortlessly, a character who can pinpoint the location of his enemy he knows nothing about with nothing but his senses through a multistory building full with other humans, who can even tell their gender by how they walk, who can redirect his sword strikes midstrike wherever he wants, who can cut the arm off opponents multiple stories away with his senses. Sion has learned the Mayer and Pray Style, the Mayer Style being a legendary hand to hand martial arts made up of all of humanities ancient and modern fighting styles and the Pray Style being a even more effective evolution of the Mayer Style. Had become Top Sword, a title awarded to the greatest living Knight just with 2 years of Knightage service, making her the second fastest Top Sword to have ever lived. Whooped a experienced Knight after 4 weeks of pretend training while she was a child. Knocked a Zail nobleman, genetically enhanced superhumans, who could nuke the entire battlefield with a single attack by hitting him in vital spots as child

And Roxas, in just one Year and spending a few day's trapped in Sora's mind, was still able to disarm and outskill Sora, who was able to defeat the Lingering Will, the Lingering Will having been training for 10 years straight to perfect it's skills after having defeated Terranort (BBS), who was essentially equal in stats to him, who was statistically just a better Master Xehanort, the most skilled Keyblade Master we have seen thus far, who in the future would be able to instantly adapt to the X-Blade and use it to it's full extent the moment he started fighting with it (He was casually changing it's form and summoning massive cannon's to attack Sora and Co. With Danmaku pattern like laser's), was able to casually catch all of the attacks of a Keyblade Wielder who had trained in a place where "Time doesn't matter", who would have had all the ample time needed to have trained to handle Xehanort's Base at minimum, but he still stopped her with ease. Using the questionably canon No Heart, which is just a data simulation of Master Xehanort using his first Keyblade Armor, he's shown to assault his opponents with all kinds of weapons, attack from close and long range at speeds Terra could never achieve, apply several kinds of status effects that blind or partially blind the opponent, and can even change how time works in a enclosed space, yet Terra STILL beat him in the Mirage Arena. And this isn't to even mention how Xehanort may have possibly read the Book of Prophecies, meaning he KNEW exactly what actions his opponents would take (Though this part is the most dubious and questionable I will admit).

 

[First_Witch]

Here, allow me to have our friend do the work for me: Sora's feat's, as stated earlier in the thread

Im not seeing much that would put Sora above Sion as well, I will respond to those later if the need arises

One, it was only across one Year that Roxas fought, and beat down, those heartless. He was fighting hoards of them constantly throughout his time across the vast Multiverse of KH, and Heartless, while Instinctually driven, are shown to work in a pack mentality, choosing to fight alongside each other to fight their prey. In addition, certain Heartless, like the Green Rhapsody, show a higher degree of capacity for teamwork, being able to heal fellow Heartless. There are also several other Heartless that show a higher capacity for intellect in general, such as the Behemoth, who will attempt to shake off things off it's back, where they can easily access it's weak point. I can concede that most sentient beings are capable of being more skilled than Heartless, but saying that taking on multiple of these creatures who are more than willing to just gang bang you is not a skill argument is a bit inaccurate imo. Also keep in mind that throughout day's, Roxas was constantly getting weaker, while the Heartless he fought were only getting stronger and more creative.

AG's have a proper military structure, weapon mastery AND swarm behavior themself. It is AG Doctrine to swarm Knights with grunt units until they succumb to the sheer wave behavior. Sion specificly had to cut herself free from complete surrounding multiple times. And when I speak about complete surrounding I mean COMPLETE surrounding.

The issue with those feats is that both Heartless and AG's are complete fodder in skill compared each respective character. Whiping the same fodder over and over again does not show impressive skill.

And while Roxas was getting weaker, Sion was getting closer and closer to death, with a body more badly decayed than a decade old corpse.

So tldr, Its not a good argument in the first place and even if it were, Sion has it beat by a mile.

Yes, it's learning speed. Maybe not as fast as Sion, but still notable for his total Skill. Another thing to consider is that Roxas seems to have adopted several of Sora's move's through both Pure Instinct and seeing some memories of Sora's. Thus is heavily implied more so in KH2, where Roxas was basically reset to being low Level, not too powerful, but he was already learning how to use a basic toy weapon in a similar manner to how Sora used his weapons.

So we agree that Sion has this beat as well? Because not only is Sion faster, hers is far more in depth and complex

Then allow me to clarify a little:
Xemnas, in the first fight, is admittedly lackluster.
However, after that, in his white and black coat, he has absorbed a Artificial Kingdom Hearts. Being claimed to be a threat to all the worlds, he was seeking to remake the Multiverse in his (And, technically Xehanort's) image. A single Heart alone in KH is stated to be incalculable, and the derivative of most strength/power in the verse, and now Xemnas had at least over 50,000 (This, is probably even a massive underestimation), and was using Kingdom Heart's full power against Sora and Riku. Essentially, they were fighting god, and still managed to beat him through teamwork. Xemnas during the fight was also throwing Fully Dense Buildings, using a Dragon to shoot Laser's, and in the final phase, he was summoning Existence Erasing Orb's and Laser's, and was also consistently using Mirages of himself to either confuse the opponent's or multitask. Xemnas from the fight with Roxas should retain a portion of these abilities, and at the very least we know that in all fights, it's in character for him to spam Existence Erasing Laser's and Orb's consistently.

Calling this a pure skill feat is disingenous not gonna lie. Sora has far more hax to compensate for the fight. Sions fight with Hyperion was a PURE skill feat as Sion had NOTHING other than her sword and techniques to fight Hyperion.

And Roxas, in just one Year and spending a few day's trapped in Sora's mind, was still able to disarm and outskill Sora, who was able to defeat the Lingering Will, the Lingering Will having been training for 10 years straight to perfect it's skills after having defeated Terranort (BBS), who was essentially equal in stats to him, who was statistically just a better Master Xehanort, the most skilled Keyblade Master we have seen thus far, who in the future would be able to instantly adapt to the X-Blade and use it to it's full extent the moment he started fighting with it (He was casually changing it's form and summoning massive cannon's to attack Sora and Co. With Danmaku pattern like laser's), was able to casually catch all of the attacks of a Keyblade Wielder who had trained in a place where "Time doesn't matter", who would have had all the ample time needed to have trained to handle Xehanort's Base at minimum, but he still stopped her with ease. Using the questionably canon No Heart, which is just a data simulation of Master Xehanort using his first Keyblade Armor, he's shown to assault his opponents with all kinds of weapons, attack from close and long range at speeds Terra could never achieve, apply several kinds of status effects that blind or partially blind the opponent, and can even change how time works in a enclosed space, yet Terra STILL beat him in the Mirage Arena. And this isn't to even mention how Xehanort may have possibly read the Book of Prophecies, meaning he KNEW exactly what actions his opponents would take (Though this part is the most dubious and questionable I will admit).

This is all scaling chains with not much substance again. The best feat Im seeing is beating Sora after a year of training, weaving through Danmaku, mastering a hard and complicated weapon and a weird fate/precog feat. Sion became the most skilled character within Knight Run as a child and in 2 years. A verse comprised of other insane Sword Masters, like Anne whose control over her body allows her to manipulate her own nerves, or Garou who can counter a omnidirecional shockwave plus space debris being flung at him with Sword Skills only. Sion using Pray Style techniques is far more impressive because the entire style is infamous for wrecking your body with each usage.

The weird no time training feat is not impressive as well. It dosnt matter how long you trained if you cant proof that they grew in skill through that time. What matters is what was archived in that time.

The whole Precog feat is questionable as well. If the books prophecys are absolute you would be in nonsense territory of "Outskilling fate itself". If they arent then that simply means that they outgrew themselve from the point of the prophecy onwards. Which can range from bridging a small difference to a huge one. Assuming even that Skill was the deciding factor in the first place.

Like look, I'm not trying to rag on Kingdom Heart skill. This not me saying Roxas isnt skilled. But if you want Sions spot you would have to have her beat in more categories. Not only is Sion beating Roxas in most of your arguments, Sion has a entire slew of feats Roxas just plainly dosnt have. Far better senses feats, fat better martial arts feats, better analytical prediction feats FAR better power mimicry feats, better combat feats etc.