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Ikki: Defeats perfect copies of himself while they are amped and he is in base in a 4v1.
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Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!
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Powerscalers discussing how their literally-who web novel character can beat a master swordsman who knows 4838937985893295328957+ techniques and can know how you fight just by the way you poo:
Me and the boys discussing which of our favorite western computer roleplaying games protagonists are the superior liars:
azontr
He/Him- 40,519
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Poseidon also has clearly superior analytical prediction to Kojiro's at the time so irrelevant.
Kojiro does the same thing, since I think creating thousands upon thousands of combat simulations to match your opponent, and matching an opponent that can kill you 18 times in an instant is just as good, if not far superior to that. If anything, "evolving several decades every instant" is unquantifiable in comparison to Kojiro's growth.
Difference is Kojiro has 400+ years of experience doing it and can do it thousands of times over even as a normal human, who was fodder in comparison to his Valhalla self. And inherently their moves includes their strategies, so really analyzing thoughts is not as relevant as you think it is, Kojiro replays the entire fight in his head.
It had everything to do with Kojiro's analysis. If he can analyze somebody so perfectly that just by touching one of his scratches, a blind, decrepit old man can perfectly visualize all of his opponents vividly, it means he's analyzing them on a far deeper level than just muscle twitches and the like. You could tally it up to illusion creation but in the end it's a feat towards the potency of Kojiro's analysis regardless so feel free to try.
Why would he need to copy the attacks, Kojiro's power mimicry isn't his main strength, again, his skill comes from his analysis, which he's blatantly doing here.
The profiles are incorrect, so don't listen to them. Poseidon's afterimages had afterimages and Kojiro clearly didn't dodge either attack, he still got hit, so there was definitely an immense speed difference and he was being bombarded with thousands of these attacks from all directions while injured, and still evolved.
I never said that Ikki in general > Kojiro. Kojiro's main skill comes from his ability to analyze, if he's superior to Ikki in that he may as well be superior in all categories at that point. He doesn't need to mimic techniques, or control his body, or have bullshit stealth manipulation. If he can analyze it he'll evolve like he always does.
Figured I may as well make this before I go.
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It do be like that, that's why I don't bring it up.Ikki: Defeats perfect copies of himself while they are amped and he is in base in a 4v1.
Breakable analytical prediction, Ikki's Perfect Vision worked on Edel who's literally "Ikki+". So i'll take that as a pretty clear PV > TID here.
Not necessarily you don't know how much Kojiro's really growing with those examples (not to mention there's a lot of things that contribute to the "could kill you in an instant", not the other way around though, cus if someone is stronger than you he could very easily kill you but just getting used to how he will attack means you can get 1 counter attack in and win, so it's not as impressive as you think it is) whereas Ikki and Stella were getting just in stats dozens of times stronger during that fight. And again if Ikki at 15 is doing what he's doing you can guess what decades of development will do to him. And "someone who can kill you in an instant".
Unquantifiable, 400 years of experience for Kojiro and 15 years for Ikki aren't necessarily the same, similar to how 15 years irl and 15 years in anime aren't the same thing. Each verse has its own progression rate. I won't go into analyzing thoughts cus it's irrelevant discussing theories on "how good it is", just the fact that he can means he does something Kojiro can't, regardless of how meaningful you think it is, it's still a bonus.
No, cus how Kojiro does shadow boxing has nothing to do with how good the old man perceived it. If me or you went there we wouldn't see shit, the old man could feel the experience though. Regardless that is just glorified shadow boxing.
Profiles are profiles, change the profiles if you wanna argue this.
That's not how things work, but we can discuss this part last.
All the arrows had magic, the magic was "stealth" of "conceptual manipulation" system. Which means none of the senses can pick them up sight, hearing, smell, echolocation, they are completely hidden.
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That's not really how it works, specially since from the quotes is said how he is just invisible, and is directly contradicted the claim that they don't produce sound based on the simply fact that the dude under said "conceptual stealth" was able to a normal conversations with everyone. There is even a statement that say that he have "conceptual stealth"?
I'm busy with other things and the post with the Arifureta skill still isn't finished but just saw this and wanted to address this point.
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Poseidon doesn't have "breakable" Analytical Prediction. So I'm really unsure what you even mean by "breakable." in the first place, going by logic all forms of Analytical Prediction are breakable. Your acting like Ikki has Yhwach's Almighty precognition with PV.
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A destructive killing intent shot invisibly, an arrow capable of even snatching away life, was racing directly toward Ikki. But―killing intent was inconsequential now. Of the arrow, there was nothing that could be seen, nothing that could be heard, so rather than try for the arrow, Ikki would only see what he could see, hear what he could hear.
I can't seem to find the part where it says what Kirihara's skill is, though here's a quote that should do the job i guess.
It was to mean "So Kojiro got caught by surprise which means his TID isn't perfect and won't work 100% on people like poseidon, whereas Ikki's perfect vision works even on people who are better than him in all regards like Edelweiss".
One is limited the other one isn't and please don't compare Ikki to Yhwach, they do different things. One sees the future, the other predicts it, just cus one sounds more impressive doesn't mean we get to compare them for no reason.
azontr
He/Him- 40,519
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- #731
I don't like how your boiling down what happened to "Kojiro was caught off guard". Poseidon specifically predicted Kojiro's predictions. It was specific in the way that Poseidon had the superior predictive ability to Kojiro, not that Kojiro's Thousand-Image Defense had a lapse in it. To even suggest that Ikki's analysis is better in the way you'd have to prove that Edelweiss had any way to even counter Ikki's analysis outside of "she's superior to him in every way" which is just blatant stat superiority.
I'll respond to everything else that you posted later.
I'll respond to everything else that you posted later.
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Not stat superiority, Edelweiss is better than ikki in everything mainly skill. Their fight was ikki trying everything he had yet still getting absolute smoked and countered on everything. It's just how Perfect Vision is, it doesn't matter if you try to predict me too, i still know exactly what you're gonna do and you can't not do that cus you'd be acting out of character which also stems from your character, which ikki already grasped.
The only way to break out of it would be to change who you are, change identity.
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Because Poseidon was actively reading further ahead of Sasaki with TID amongst having a massive speed and strength advantage topped with crazy amounts of afterimages. There's more to it than just "He got taken off gaurd." Earl, the same thing would happen to Ikki if he were up against an opponent with higher levels of Analytical Prediction and much higher levels of speed.
Ah i see, so Ikki's PV has no limits according to you? Gotcha. Because now i suppose Ikki's PV has layered Analytical Prediction and can negate resistance to Layered levels of Analytical Prediction now.
I didn't compare them at all in the slightest, perhaps look at my comment again and read it slowly. I was saying that your acting as if Ikki's PW is this crazy potent Prediction that allows him to predict an infinite amount of attacks before they even happen.
It's also a complete and total NLF to say that Ikki's PW can work on those with resistance to Analytical Prediction based on Ikki understanding the character. He understands the character and identity? Cool that doesn't help him predict the unpredictable.
Characters such as Ohma, Kanoh and Gensai from Kengan have resistance to Analytical Prediction that scales above reading 100+ steps ahead of time and on FTE opponents. And they're Analytical Prediction works on people with resistance on that level, it'd be a massive stretch to say that Ikki's PW would work effectively on a character with resistance whenever he's never been shown to deal with resistances to Prediction. He wouldn't be able to use his Prediction because the opponent already has resistance to that ability in the first place, hence it would stop any and all Predictions unless Ikki's PW has feats of negating or overpowering resistance to Analytical Prediction.
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We've gone over this, but it's not exactly NLF, it has a clear weakness i know 1 character that can break out of it, it even worked on "past" actions, he knew what a person had done in the past through perfect vision that's how dumb it is. Oh and btw those aren't my words:
Human thought was firmly rooted in one’s identity—one couldn’t change the way they think overnight. Kirihara might have thought he could outfox Ikki, but the very idea of outfoxing him was born from his identity. As long as that was true, he couldn’t escape Ikki’s notice.
Stealing the enemy’s very identity meant being able to grasp all of their thoughts and feelings; it could be called Perfect Vision. Faced with such incredible power, Kirihara finally understood the true reason to fear Ikki Kurogane. It wasn’t because of his swordplay or even his one-minute boost. It was his penetrating eyes, like a magic mirror that could reveal the true nature of anything it looked upon, and they were fixed upon the invisible Hunter.
Except it hasn't happened to Ikki before though, he has fought people faster and more skilled then himself (namely edelweiss). He still got perfect vision on her, he still lost cus even with that he had nothing he could do against her, but he still pulled it off and fought a massively superior version to himself while blind, even if for a short time.
The fact that you say "resistance to A.P." is part of the issue, the most you could do is be a fairly unpredictable guy, you can't just "resist" it cus it's not something that's affecting you in the first place, which is why i shot down the "ikki, yhwach" thing , cus you can resist yhwach's precog, it's hax that affects you in some way, you can't resist ikki thinking "if i were you i'd do this move", that'd be resisting "ikki having thoughts and opinions about you". We had a whole thread about this before.
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Well better people have broken out of TID, not out PV. Simple as that. TID has never been able to tell him about past actions, it has never been able to tell him the thoughts and strategies of his opponents. It has never worked on opponents he couldn't see or hear. So not only does PV have just insanely more feats, it has never failed like TID has, even in the same circumstances.
On the other hand TID seeing countless futures? PV does that. TID being many steps ahead? PV does that. TID being used on faster people? PV does that. TID planning out the entire fight in their heads? Ikki also does that.
We're at a point where...TID doesn't do anything Ikki doesn't.
But then, Ikki doesn't even stop here, and has about a trillion other skills that Kojiro does not. But then again if you want people to vote Im fine with it.
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First things first, hyperbolic text like this is all too common within light novels like this, so i'm failing to understand how this can be taken seriously despite the amount of flowery language used. Secondly again, that's attempting to outsmart the opponent, that's not the opponent reading your movements or the opponent having a resistance to Analytical Prediction.
All you did was post a character trying to outsmart Ikki which Ikki counters with PW.
And again, all this is would be Analytical Prediction. If the opponent has a resistance to Analytical Prediction to begin with then PW wouldn't work as it would shut off any attempt at Predicting movement.
Edelweiss doesn't even have Analytical prediction so this is missing my point entirely.
You absolutely can have resistance to Analytical Prediction and it's literally effecting you. It's the ability to read ahead of time and predict movements of the opponent, that's blatantly effecting you.
Classic Earl NLF.
azontr
He/Him- 40,519
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- #739
Dude, it's still NLF. Perfect Vision hasn't been used on people with superior analytical prediction or even comparable predictions, meanwhile Kojiro's has, and Kojiro's can see a far more plentiful amount of moves, cause Perfect Vision does not see tens of thousands of ahead.
Perfect Vision hasn't been broken because nobody Ikki fights has the means to counter it.
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Thousand Image defense reads way higher than Ikki’s PW when it comes to the amount of attacks they can predict. Sasaski's is >>>>> Thousands of thousands, Ikki doesn't have anything like that.
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Countless doesn't even mean shit tbh, that's dependent on the amount of skills your opponent has. Unless they have infinite amounts of moves (which also implies infinite speed.) then "reading Countless moves." is kinda ass.
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So...the same as ikki?
She does, she knew what kind of attack ikki was gonna hit her with and was countering ikki's skills with the same type of attacks, which would require analytical prediction to even pull off.
No...info analysis would be effecting you, predicting your movements isn't effecting you, cus it is in no way interacting. Info analysis is what leads to analytical prediction which you can resist yes. So yes you can very technically have resistance to AP, it's not direct resistance.
It's dependent on the amount of options, not skills. Poseidon didn't have thousands of skills, he just had a lot of ways he could attack from. Similarly Kirihara had plenty of ways he could attack from, Ayase had way more than thousands of spots she could have placed the spatial cuts in.
On imperceivable enemies, attacks, spatial cuts? Sasaki doesn't pinpoint the move the opponent is going to do, he just knows the options, which means against things he cannot perceive by any means like the things i mentioned it wouldn't work, neither would it work against past actions, all of which ikki does. Case and point, TID has worked on a tenth of the things Ikki's PV has.
azontr
He/Him- 40,519
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The difference between literally all of that is that Edelweiss's predictions are clearly not superior to Ikki's, so her just "having it" means nothing in terms of him countering it if PV was already better than what she could predict.
Meanwhile, Kojiro predicts tens of thousands of moves and his analysis gets massively better as the fight goes, and works against those who actually do have superior Analytical Prediction to himself.
Meanwhile, Kojiro predicts tens of thousands of moves and his analysis gets massively better as the fight goes, and works against those who actually do have superior Analytical Prediction to himself.
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No she doesn't, not according to her profile. Keep in mind about a page or two ago you were telling Azontr to use what's on a profile.
I'd suggest practicing what you preach a lil.
It doesn't need to have a physical affect on the opponent for it to "affect" you. Analytical Prediction is still affecting the target by reading their movements before they happen.
you saying "no..." is not an argument.
Information Analysis does not lead to Analytical Prediction. They're two separate abilities but sometimes come hand in hand depending on the mechanisms. And again, stop trying to implement your own headcanon. If you think it's impossible to have a resistance to Analytical Prediction then make a CRT, tons of characters have it.
Which is relevant how...? Skills and movements are the same, shit skills themselves are based on movements unless they're thought based.
Scans and full context please.
Again, scans.
He pin points everythint the opponent can do. It seems like your forgetting his Mental Imaginary fighting where he gathers all the shit his opponent can do. Thousand Image Defense is Sasaki predicting all of his opponents attacks and movements in rapid succession.
What the **** is a past action?
Ikki doesn't predict thousands of attacks all at once, and he doesn't perform Mental fighting either so no.
azontr
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To save time on this and to not clutter the thread with arguments, once Earl responds to these points, we'll leave it up to a vote as to who wins the skill battle, since most of the points I was planning to address on my own Gin is currently addressing.
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Her AP was working on ikki though, which is the same case for Poseidon. Poseidon was never stated to have AP superior to TID, all that happened was that Poseidon read Kojiro, which is the same case for Edel and Ikki.
Scans on Kirihara are above, or in the feat blog. Basically all his attacks can't be seen or heard by ikki, because of magic.
Ayase had placed space cuts in the ring (her ability is concept: wound, she can place a wound anywhere including empty space and reopen it whenever she wants), this was done before the fight even started. Perfect Vision kicked in midway through the fight, and Ikki knew exactly where Ayase had placed all the wounds in space despite that not being a thing or move Ayase would be doing, it was something she had already done. Sasaki's TID due to the way it works wouldn't be able to pull that off, because it's not a move Ayase would do in the future it would require him to read what she had already done. For scans of this just search on YT Ikki vs Ayase, you can see the full fight.
He doesn't though, exactly because of the mental fighting, he fights the opponent many times, then see what they can do and can respond accordingly when the opponent actually does that. Which is why Kojiro says things like "i know this, i saw this earlier" when he's fighting, cus it's more about him being ready about a lot of options rather than him being ready for exactly 1 option that he knows for a fact Poseidon will pull off.
You think so?
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I wonder if Ion ever comes back to argue for Fugil. Wasnt he like, always behind Ikki?
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Then it's literally the same case with Edelweiss. Why are we differentiating the 2?
Ion left after me...i think
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Poseidon predicts kojiro? That means poseidon has better AP
Edel predicts Ikki, that means that edel doesn't scale and ikki is still better.
Uhm....idk if that's how things work chief.
No idea where this is going but let's just let people vote i guess.
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It's a skill because Perfect Vision allowed him to fight while blinded against Edelweiss sheerly through predicting her moves.
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Anyway let's have the people vote for this now:
On 1 had we have Kojiro who: Has analytical prediction which has been stated to read thousands of moves.
On the other hand we have Ikki: Has AP which has been stated to read countless of moves, thoughts, feelings etc etc, has worked against things that can't be perceived, has read through actions that had happened before the PV had kicked in, and a lot of other things. On top of this he has extreme body control, skill copying to a ridiculous degree, better info analysis, better reactive evolution, trackless step, has reached a point where he doesn't even need acceleration but goes 0 to full speed instantly, energy control in both flowing and using, can make his attack soundless by making it so 0 energy is lost during the swing, fixing his body instantly while getting prob haxed into failing, extreme senses, echolocation, senses, attack reflection, can attack the insides of someone, and much much more.
I did not mention things from both characters that are the same (that both characters can do, so things like mental fighting). Feel free to place your votes.
On 1 had we have Kojiro who: Has analytical prediction which has been stated to read thousands of moves.
On the other hand we have Ikki: Has AP which has been stated to read countless of moves, thoughts, feelings etc etc, has worked against things that can't be perceived, has read through actions that had happened before the PV had kicked in, and a lot of other things. On top of this he has extreme body control, skill copying to a ridiculous degree, better info analysis, better reactive evolution, trackless step, has reached a point where he doesn't even need acceleration but goes 0 to full speed instantly, energy control in both flowing and using, can make his attack soundless by making it so 0 energy is lost during the swing, fixing his body instantly while getting prob haxed into failing, extreme senses, echolocation, senses, attack reflection, can attack the insides of someone, and much much more.
I did not mention things from both characters that are the same (that both characters can do, so things like mental fighting). Feel free to place your votes.
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I said i mentioned things that the other doesn't have, no matter how we spun it, the "he has predicted thousand of attacks" was the main point. Besides it's not anybody's fault Ikki has 18 volumes of raw skill feats while Kojiro has 5 chapters 3 of which are backstory and introductions (man i hate RoR's pacing).I feel like you purposely made Ikki's explanation bigger just to make Kojiro seem less credible cause that def ain't all Kojiro has to his Thousand-Image Defense.
It's just things were never supposed to be fair regardless.
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