Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[First_Witch]

Summary;

- All Saints are trained in every martial arts at a very young age including sword techniques like the Tararus Saint for example who doesn't even use a sword but incorporates the iai technique for his "great horn ability." Additionally, there is unconvential and additional pressure points on saints that spells certain death if struck. |||| shura is no exception to this.

Knight Trainees are made up of only the greatest and most skilled warriors across the universe. Only the best of Knight Trainees become Knights. Only the best of Knights become Master Knights. Only a 1 Percent of the 1 Percent of Master Knights become Cold Heroes. There can only be 1 Top Sword. Sion was arguably the most skilled Top Sword to have ever lived and was most definitly the most skilled Sword Master to have ever lived. She was hailed as the Sword Saint.

- A Saints skill at adapting to an opponent is excellent. They just need to see a technique once and they can counter it the next time.

Sion's skill copying as a small child was so good that she could see a technique once and use it with such mastery, like she did it tens of thousands of time. She once saw the sword style of a past Zail King, a Style so ancient and undocumented that it is a stricly ceremonial style, broke it down to its concept and deduced the purpose of every movement, stance and transition. She then proceeded to completly rip it apart and create an entirely new Sword Style out of it. Her only prior combat experience to that is pretend fighting with her surrocate mother.

- Saints can additionally take brutal injuries and still continue to fight (which should already listed on their profiles) and shura is no exception to this either. He lost both his arms and his legs and was still using his body as the holy sword Excalibur to continue fighting.

Sion fought a deathbattle while looking like this:

Shes, on top of that:

1. Radiated to hell and back
2. Literally falling apart, to the point where neutralizing a attack blew chunks out of her body out
3. Deathly sick and depended on medication, something she didnt take for days

ON TOP of that, Sion had to fight with only 20% of her physical specs and was slowly dissolved just by being near her enemy, that being Hyperion.

- A true swordsman can predict up to 30% of oncoming attacks, but Roland could predict with accuracy greater than 90%. Shura countered Roland's analytical prediction with his eyes closed. he out predicted the predicter

Lesser Skilled Knights can AnaPre entire flurrys of attacks that blitz them. Sion predicted Hyperion pseudo teleporting at her through hyperspeed movement and yeeted her out of the teleporation motion.

- even before that he was already doing a great job countering Roland's attacks that had Analytical Prediction involved with them. Some of these attacks were omnidirectional homing attacks and a Danmaku (should be in the link above)

Got nothing on this one.

- Despite Saints having mastered many different types of martial arts style. Shura still creates new attacks when fighting Saints from other worlds whom have seen many techniques to counter as they fought in many battles. The Gladiators are an excellent example as they are Saints from another world, and they went from World to World to conquer god knows how many other universes.

See point 1. Sion revamps martial arts she sees and creates far more effective Styles out of them. Sion learned the Mayer Style and the Pray Style, both Styles to potent and effective that they were considered for becoming the defacto main fighting style of the Knight Order. The Mayer Style is a algamation of ancient and modern Martial arts, refined to the point where it allows practioners to fight barehanded against aliens, even if they are normal ass humans. While the Pray Style further refined and perfected the Mayer Style, adding Sword, Spear and Dagger techniques to it.

- He has infinite battle experience from fighting (NOT FODDERS but high tiers) life and death battles in infinite worlds. This is basically saying he leveled up his skill infinitely by fighting infinite battles. honestly its probably uncountably infinite considering the verses cosmology but meh

Thats literally not how it works though? For that to be infinite skill, he would have to fight 1. Consistently more Skilled opponents with every fight and 2. Be able to growth infinitly in skill.

- he can counter attack despite being paralyzed or suffering severe brain injuries, can be missing all his limbs except his head and still fight. he could have a freaking hole in chest and still fight on. He could be missing more than half of all the blood in his body and still fight on.

See above.

- His 6th sense gives him an advantage. It acts sort of like a spider sense. It screams "Danger" and tells him where the danger is, and how strong it is, and the best method to avoid it.

Clint Zail, Sions Pupil whom she teached everything to, can pinpoint targets through a multistory building full with humans and even tell their gender by tapping his sword to the ground, just by how they walk.

- He can copy techniques, and even counter said copied techniques instantly.

Sion does the same, its even a in universe concept called Resonance, where she completly negate a attack by copying and throwing it back

- He has also countered, parried, blocked, and deflected an omni-directional infinite attack

Thats unquantifiable lol.

Now to Stuff Sion has.

Knights have to be able to fight in space and regardless of footing, Sion can parry attacks while in air and getting ragdolled across the entire battlefield.

Sion can reflect the kinetic energy behind a attack at her target back

Sion's Sword technique is so refined that her swings become unperceiveable. By making them formless and free, she can throw invicible cuts. She can apply that effect through a Sword technique, making her invisible temporary.

Sion, in her fight with Hyperion, grew insanly in skill. In their 2 clashes, she went from Stalemating and nearly dying to it while healthy and in peak condition, to styling on it with only 20% of her physical capabilities and near death, thrice. Hyperion had 2 revives in their final fight and each revive added bullshit to its powers. In its first revive it a got a physical boost and teleportation, in its second revive it got even more stronger and faster while activly dissolving Sion just by standing in its presence. All three fights were back to back, Sions physical condition worsened with each round and she still won, with nothing but her sword skill.

 

[First_Witch]

My god, please dont tell me I have to do this everytime someone wants that spot. It was more fun in my memories to be honest.

Why am I even bothering if Sion flies the moment Ikki snacks a single spot

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

My god, please dont tell me I have to do this everytime someone wants that spot. It was more fun in my memories to be honest.

Why am I even bothering if Sion flies the moment Ikki snacks a single spot

thats why i thought making a match might be better lol

i'll respond tomorrow at some point. doing some irl stuff

 

[Firephoenixearl]

My god, please dont tell me I have to do this everytime someone wants that spot. It was more fun in my memories to be honest.

Make some blog with her feats i guess, like i did with Ikki.

That way nobody will read it and you'll have to write these big posts regardless.

 

[azontr]

My god, please dont tell me I have to do this everytime someone wants that spot. It was more fun in my memories to be honest.

Why am I even bothering if Sion flies the moment Ikki snacks a single spot

Embrace it, witch. Embrace the skill debate. Let it flow through your soul.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah the arguments are the same but the consensus is bullshit.

The debate didn't even progress to any relevant extent because the guy who argued for Kojiro didn't respond to you're post. You're trying to argue Ikki is better than Kojiro because the debate is incomplete.

Then reply here to my last arguments with your points on why Kojiro is better. But please no reused points.

 

[YungManzi]

I'm actually on Earls side here with the Ikki arguments. Not only is his analytical prediction almost as good as if not better than Kojiro's in some ways, but his body control is ridiculous, he has skill mimicry as bullshit as Garou's (Not the power mimicry stuff but the skill, which is actually way better than Garou/Saitama cause it includes all possibilities iirc), and trackless step is just utter bullshit.

He can make his moves unregistrable to the brain, because the brain processes it as unimportant information, even if you can sense him you won't register that you're sensing him before it's too late. All via skill.

I read the previous thread on Kouki... I really don't think he's messing with that. Even Ikki's body control is just... superior.
Some of his "feats" are also blatantly not skill but an ability as well but eh. Like War Demon.

 

[azontr]

Then reply here to my last arguments with your points on why Kojiro is better. But please no reused points.

I can indeed reuse points because the points were not properly addressed.

I will do so in a minute as I am now home.

 

[azontr]

Your old post is organized like dogshit though so it'll take me a bit.

 

[First_Witch]

Embrace it, witch. Embrace the skill debate. Let it flow through your soul.

Eh, i will embrace it. After Im done with Pathways into the Light. Maybe thats why I'm dreading wall of text debates...

 

[azontr]

Ikki basically does the same vizualization (he did this before the fight with Stella and even against Byakuya Jougasaki where they both analyzed the battle from start to finish and both knew who would win and exactly when that win would happen). As for the precognition, let's start one by one. So first is the information gathering:

As if stealing the principles of its invention from its tricks, expose the patterns of thinking from the words and the voice. And then from everything there, investigating the previous degree of piercing's tendency, the personality, technique, design, by integrating, analyzing, understanding, exhausting data on all kinds of things―grasp everything about the person called Shizuya Kirihara!

That's still inferior to Thousand-Image Defense. Thousand-Image Defense does exactly the same thing, forming an exact copy of Kojiro's opponent in his mind that allows him to evolve endlessly in response to his opponent, with such potency that in an instant he was able to match an opponent that in his mental simulations had killed him over 18 times. If in a moment Kojiro is somehow not as skilled as Ikki, he will be in a few moments, because that's how fast he evolves. Kojiro can also repeat this at least thousands of times in an instant.

This is also the same Kojiro who has over 400 years of fighting experience using the Thousand-Image Defense, with such an ability allowing him to access far, far more experience than he would normally be able to grasp from simply training for 400 years.

And just some more:

As if her clothes, skin, and muscles were being read fiber by fiber, her every little act was being studied. And from that gaze, she realized that Ikki was trying to understand the Imperial Arts from her movements.

"My sword style isn't so simple that you can see through it easily!"

"…No, I already got it."

He also analyzes everything from his opponent, the personality, voice, design etc to grast the "identity of someone". So i would call them equal in this regard, sure, now the precog is where it differs:

Whether it's sword technique or people, there's a principle that fundamentally governs all their actions. You can call it a system of values. By using that―the person's actions and plans, what that person is thinking right now, how I myself should move, what countermeasures should be taken, whether to move forward or draw back, to attack or defend―every possible action is completely and quite clearly predictable. For example, at this moment, I know that you've taken three steps back."

Kirihara's body froze in fright at Ikki's light declaration, and he leaked out a soundless shriek, because what Ikki had said was unmistakably true. But of course Ikki could know Kirihara's response. The principle he spoke of wasn't a notion limited to the here and now. That predictability of human thought was a firmly-rooted identity, not something that could be changed in an instant. However much the person himself wants to outsmart that identity, even the thought of outsmarting it arises from the identity itself, and therefore couldn't escape Ikki's perception. By stealing the opponent's identity, Ikki seized all those thoughts and feelings.

If Ikki had to name this technique, it would be Perfect Vision. Before its power, Kirihara finally understood. The true dreadfulness of the knight called Ikki Kurogane wasn't sword technique, a one-minute boost, or anything else like that. It was his ability to expose and reflect the true nature of everything he sees, a discerning eye like a shining magic mirror. That mirror could capture even the invisible Hunter. Therefore―

"I see everything you're capable of doing. In this match, I'll take the win!"

Grasping the identity of someone, as previously stated, means nothing in terms of combat skill. Everything else that is stated in this scan is something that Kojiro can already do on his own. To create a perfect copy of his opponent he'd already have to analyze things such as clothes, skin, muscles, and the fundamentals of their technique for the Thousand-Image Defense to be any good.

In fact, Kojiro's ability to analyze is so good and so vivid, that simply from entering the room, a blind man was able to visualize every single opponent that Kojiro had fought and trained against in his mind, with his mind being assaulted with a vivid image of countless swordsman. This was when Kojiro was alive, and complete fodder in comparison to himself ascended to Valhalla.

Ikki is capable of actually seeing all the possible actions someone can take, they are all predictable but unlike Sasaki who just knows the possible routes, Ikki knows exactly which of those moves Kirihara will make, an ability that can't be fooled as everything stems from identity. So the difference here is Ikki does what Sasaki can, but he takes it a step further and doesn't stop at just knowing the possible routes, but he also knows the true routes, not to mention that as stated he also understands the thoughts and feelings of someone along with their actions and possible moves. So basically he knows everything regarding a certain person. There is more to it, but i'll mention it below.

So you say he was capable of dodging or reflecting hundreds of attacks. Well Ikki did the same except he predicted shots that didn't even have a clear intent as they were just carpet bombing the place rather than being shot directly at him from his opponent:

There was no pattern to the destruction. The Noble Art Million Rain was an attack of indiscriminate scope made of more than a hundred pieces of iron. Kirihara had concluded that if his thoughts were being read, he should carpet-bomb the area without thinking. The idea had to be correct, but even so―

"Why!? Why doesn't it hit!?"

―Ikki cleared away the invisible arrowheads, running through the destructive rain without slowing the slightest and darting through the rolled-up cloud of dust. In truth, he had already seen all of it.

"It's useless, you know. No matter how much you try to keep your heart clear, you want to beat me. You want to kill me. The urge for that frightened heart to shout its killing intent can't be restrained. No matter how much you want to attack with an unreadable mind, the killing intent dwells inside you."

Kojiro can quite literally also learn the exact moves of the opponent, so Ikki being able to see the "true movements" or the "thoughts and feelings" of the opponent is irrelevant. Being able to visualize thoughts and feelings is fair. Being able to visualize "actions and possible moves" means nothing as we both know Kojiro can do that, you really just repeated yourself for no real reason.

There was no pattern to the destruction. The Noble Art Million Rain was an attack of indiscriminate scope made of more than a hundred pieces of iron. Kirihara had concluded that if his thoughts were being read, he should carpet-bomb the area without thinking. The idea had to be correct, but even so―

"Why!? Why doesn't it hit!?"

―Ikki cleared away the invisible arrowheads, running through the destructive rain without slowing the slightest and darting through the rolled-up cloud of dust. In truth, he had already seen all of it.

"It's useless, you know. No matter how much you try to keep your heart clear, you want to beat me. You want to kill me. The urge for that frightened heart to shout its killing intent can't be restrained. No matter how much you want to attack with an unreadable mind, the killing intent dwells inside you."

So while both dealt with a huge amount of attacks, Ikki dealt with attacks that were not from his enemy directly, which means said attacks literally didn't have any thinking, yet ikki could still see through this (said attacks and the user were all unperceivable by all 5 senses iirc cus they used the concept of hunting) and deflect them.

Being able to counter random Carpet bombing does not mean that the opponent was unpredictable. It just meant they were throwing out attacks without really thinking about it, which anybody can do, it doesn't make their attacks unpredictable or unreadable because their being a schizophrenic and throwing out random attacks. It's a non-feat.

Meanwhile, Kojiro is capable of countering a dome of thousands of attacks from an opponent that had superior analytical prediction to his and who was both capable of blitzing Kojiro several, several times over, and he still countered it and evolved against it.

The analyzation point. That is definitely good, but Ikki already does all of that, the vibration of the air thing, even notices abnormalities in sound waves. As for the last point it seems like it's just a heavy hyperbole. As analyzing the air and trembles of the earth doesn't really equate to analyzing all of creation, so it's just a hyperbole to say that "he was analyzing everything there". Cus that line feels the same as saying "he cut appart every building in the area, and the multiverse along with them". It goes from normal stuff to complete batshit crazy without further context. So since it's just a questionable statement it's best to wait until it has more elaboration or an actual feat.

It is hyperbole, so it's best to either treat it as a statement of Kojiro's upscaling to his previous feats to an absurd degree instead of him literally scanning the universe, though it's probably possible to give him planetary range with his scanning if I wanked tried.

At that time, Kuro-bou saw and stole the princess's Imperial Arts, but stealing a sword technique isn't an ordinary feat like imitating a style. From something like a style or swordsmanship, the accumulated history is studied, taking the ideas arrived there, and exposing and returning with the principle of its foundation. That's what we call stealing a sword technique.


Swordsmanship describes its own knowledge, style describes its own history, and breathing describes its own principle. If one followed the branches and leaves of a sword style and arrived down at the root, then it wouldn't be hard to grasp that style's techniques and combinations, or its approach in facing different situations. This was what Ikki was saying.

"And if I can understand the style that far, I can also create techniques that outperform my opponent's."

What was the ultimate way to surpass an opponent's sword style? Simply correct all the flaws of that style to create a more perfect one, and the new would be plainly superior to the old. The new style would account for all the old style's faults, and even compensate for its weaknesses. It would eclipse its precursor in every offensive and defensive situation.

And as the quote above says besides copying a style, he also perfects the style in every way making it superior to the previous user. Furthermore he copies parts of styles that even the original user did not know such as when he copied Ten I Muhou by analyzing Ayase even though Ayase herself couldn't perform the technique.

Kojiro's main strength is not his ability to copy techniques, so this is not really relevant.

 

[azontr]

Not only is his analytical prediction almost as good as if not better than Kojiro's in some ways,

No, it's not lel.

 

[YungManzi]

Ikki legit beat a perfect copy of himself with all of his skill.. by being more skilled. He's actually bullshit.

Arguably the bigger difference between the two predictions is that Kojiro makes thousands of simulations while Ikki predicts every possible outcome which is in and of itself more than thousands, and he makes every predictable outcome in his head not while fighting but literally the moment he sees an opponent; but I'll let Earl argue those points.

 

[azontr]

Ikki legit beat a perfect copy of himself with all of his skill.. by being more skilled. He's actually bullshit.

Arguably the bigger difference between the two predictions is that Kojiro makes thousands of simulations while Ikki predicts every possible outcome which is in and of itself more than thousands, and he makes every predictable outcome in his head not while fighting but literally the moment he sees an opponent; but I'll let Earl argue those points.

"Every possible outcome" is hyperbole if I've ever seen it. And Kojiro does not have to fight his opponent either, it is all mental.

And beating a perfect copy of himself is what we like to call bullshit, and unquantifiable.

 

[LordGinSama]

Every possible outcome =/= infinite.

That's entirely dependent on the amount of attacks your opponent has at their disposal.

 

[InfiniteDay]

He can make his moves unregistrable to the brain, because the brain processes it as unimportant information, even if you can sense him you won't register that you're sensing him before it's too late. All via skill.

That's just sheer and utter hax. There is no skill here, this is literally biological manipulation or sense manipulation.

 

[azontr]

Like yeah guys Ikki is bullshit, we get it. Problem with that is that this thread is meant to index somewhat grounded, quantifiable feats.

Beating a perfect copy of yourself or seeing "every possible outcome of an opponent's moves" is the exact opposite of grounded and quantifiable.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Tbf, some of the novels I've read did have the character beating a copy of themselves that have the same mindset and abilities and skill.

Though, most of them had a clue about to do. For example one of the verses was a like a tower like verse, where before the mc goes up the floor, it gives him hints about "How well do you know yourself?" and shiz, so it wasn't just somehow outskilling xd shiz like Ikki.

Tldr Ikki is shit.

 

[azontr]

Tbf, some of the novels I've read did have the character beating a copy of themselves that have the same mindset and abilities and skill.

Though, most of them had a clue about to do. For example one of the verses was a like a tower like verse, where before the mc goes up the floor, it gives him hints about "How well do you know yourself?" and shiz, so it wasn't just somehow outskilling xd shiz like Ikki.

Tldr Ikki is shit.

Yeah, but like, that doesn't count towards skill in of itself.

Beating a copy of yourself in a mind game with like, set rules and regulations to get through the game is different then beating an opponent that has your exact thoughts, skills, and abilities with sheer martial skill.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ye, I'm literally trying to find a way to how Ikki would be able to beat a perfect copy of himself without any hints or mind games. Like how would you even write that?

Man, the anime didn't have this shiz.

 

[azontr]

Ye, I'm literally trying to find a way to how Ikki would be able to beat a perfect copy of himself without any hints or mind games. Like how would you even write that?

Man, the anime didn't have this shiz.

I can tell you how he did it. In my country, we like to call it b u l l s h i t.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I have become enlightened

 

[YungManzi]

I'm gonna try to get Hibiki (Sword), Naval (Sword), and Io (Martial Arts) in here post-revisions... Maybe even Tomoe (Sword) and Mio (Firearm).

Mio's stealth is like a pseudo-Trackless Step, just less crazy.
Io can fight 5v1 against some of the most skilled fighters in the world, while predicting attacks that he cannot perceive by looking at one of the fighter's eyes.

 

[azontr]

I have become enlightened

Also the Rakudai anime, like most light novel animes, do not cover an iota of the novels material, so novel feats that make Ikki as skilled as he is most likely never happened in the anime. This applies to shit like Tensura, Maou Gakuin, and all the other generic garbofics that somehow get anime adaptations.

 

[YungManzi]

Also the Rakudai anime, like most light novel animes, do not cover an iota of the novels material, so novel feats that make Ikki as skilled as he is most likely never happened in the anime. This applies to shit like Tensura, Maou Gakuin, and all the other generic garbofics that somehow get anime adaptations.

Yeah generally, While the anime/Manga counterpart may be stronger AP-wise (With regards to feats being shown not stated), they're never as good Hax or Skill-wise.
Because in anime and manga certain stuff may be implied but never stated; while they flat-out have to be stated in a text-based verse

This is why bleach novels being canon upgraded the whole verse to such an extent; and if we ever considered the boruto movie and it's novels as composite canon we'd have like High 4-C/4-B to Low 2-C Naruto characters.

 

[azontr]

Yeah generally, While the anime/Manga counterpart may be stronger AP-wise (With regards to feats being shown not stated), they're never as good Hax or Skill-wise.
Because in anime and manga certain stuff may be implied but never stated; while they flat-out have to be stated in a text-based verse

This is why bleach novels being canon upgraded the whole verse to such an extent; and if we ever considered the boruto movie and it's novels canon we'd have like High 4-C/4-B to Low 2-C Naruto characters.

The power of words is real.

It's why those darn Chinese are so powerful.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Pls, does anyone here have a scan of Ikki defeating a perfect clone of himself?

 

[azontr]

Pls, does anyone here have a scan of Ikki defeating a perfect clone of himself?

Prolly Earl when he finishes his coping session.

 

[Epiccheev]

Light novel: And thus the protagonist launched his final attack. A punch of absolute destruction, dealt with full killing intent to crush anything in its path. Yet, the punch was exactly 585x weaker than the opposing force it met, not only that, but he had calculated countless possibilities, and while the punch could be dodged, all possibilities led to absolute destruction of his enemy's fist "a final act of desesperation". the opponent was too strong, too durable.

However! Every movement was perfectly controlled as every cell, muscle organ, blood tissue and nerve where consciously manipulated into something else. His fist had slowly evolved and morphed into the very idea of perfection, and in less than an instant reached his opponent as it's speed neared infinity The punch was so perfectly performed it became the very concept of punch and breached into a higher dimension, transcending fate causality and reality itself! And as such... the fight had ended.

The manga: Guy punches someone vaguely stronger than himself and their head explodes, guy then says
" Man, that was one hell of a punch! ".

 

[First_Witch]

I have read mangas with encyclopedia level dialoge boxes, I can only imagine the absolute hell of trying to balance the fast paced nature of manga fight versus the snail paced exposition happening in the meantime.

 

[azontr]

I have read mangas with encyclopedia level dialoge boxes, I can only imagine the absolute hell of trying to balance the fast paced nature of manga fight versus the snail paced exposition happening in the meantime.

It'd be even harder to balance this dick in yer mouth.

 

[First_Witch]

It'd be even harder to balance this dick in yer mouth.

Woah, smooth. I do want to have a dinner with you first though.

 

[azontr]

So long as we split the bill, I'm game.

 

[First_Witch]

So long as we split the bill, I'm game.

Nah nah nah, you want your dick in my mouth, so you pay for dinner.

 

[azontr]

Yknow what, fair enough.

 

[Shmooply]

Hmm, seems like I clicked on the wrong thread. I was looking for the skills thread, not another "azontr suddenly pullin' sum gay shit in a fun & games thread again" thread.

 

[azontr]

Hmm, seems like I clicked on the wrong thread. I was looking for the skills thread, not another "azontr suddenly pullin' sum gay shit in a fun & games thread again" thread.

I cannot be stopped.

 

[Shmooply]

For now? No.

 

[azontr]

But seriously let's get back to skill.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I read the previous thread on Kouki... I really don't think he's messing with that. Even Ikki's body control is just... superior.
Some of his "feats" are also blatantly not skill but an ability as well but eh. Like War Demon.

Shea, someone to he is comparable in skill, have such mastery of her body that she can control her hair and blood, fight with them and other bullshit (like imitate the biological ability of Hajime to generate shockwaves), Mother body was also made of liquid metal and she manipulated it however she liked in the fight against Kouki. So, I seriously don't see your point about the body control part.

So you want to blatantly ignore the circumstances of how he learned War Demon, and how he learned it just to continue fighting while in the verge of death unconscious for days.

I needed to do some thing so wasn't writing the comment about the verse skill, but now will begin with it, in various hours or maybe even tomorrow after work I will post it.