• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Warhammer 40,000: Higher Dimenshuns and Stuff

If this is accepted, then we would have to use the fact that the Materium uses M-Theory, which is 11-D. The Warp is infinitely beyond it and I have argued how dimensionality works there. However, as Ultima Reality said in the main revisions thread:

No. Existing beyond spacetime / dimensionality by itself is vague and needs additional context to qualify for 1-A, otherwise it just scales based on how far those two extend in a given verse.
"Nothing" in the most literal, ontological sense is something I wouldn't tier, personally, since in that case it wouldn't really be a palpable state, just the absence of being in any form.

In the case of literal voids "made" of nothingness or whatever as portrayed in fiction, I'd say they scale, again, based on how big the verse which they come from is, since existing devoid of spacetime and dimensionality isn't that much of a big deal anymore, as this system (while still getting great influence from dimensions) focuses more on greater infinite sizes than dimensional qualities per se.

Besides, Dimensions themselves are arbitrarily defined constants that don't necessarily have to denote space and time, so there isn't exactly a problem with tiering voids of nothingness as portrayed in fiction by equating their size to some n-dimensional space; at most we could just say they are another set of axes that is aspatiotemporal in nature, at least in cases where it isn't specified that they lack directions altogether.''
We would have to count the Warp as 1-B, or equivalent to 12-D. Funnily enough, this is the same as the justification for the old rating based off this quote:

While these thoughts went through his mind he noted that the environment open to his warp eye was again changing, becoming even more difficult to apprehend. A warp-realspace overlap! To the eight dimensions of the warp were added the four dimensions of ordinary space! Twelve dimensions in all! Impossible even for a trained navigator! Could the entities of the warp understand such an environment? If so, they had intellectual powers far exceeding the human. It was far too complicated for Calliden to grasp. He whimpered, eyes rolling in his head, and gave up trying to interpret it. The great loom-like scheme surrounding him collapsed.
~ Eye of Terror (novel), pg 38​
I still need confirmation/arguments from Wokistan first. He might have something to say.
 
No I disagree, that argument is headcanon. There doesn't need to be an "s" in dimensions for it to refer to dimensionality that's just the base presupposition because of the definition of dimension. There is no other context to extrapolate from in that case. Contextually different writers use the word to mean different things which can be displayed with other books. If it can be displayed in this book your point will be sound. I think there's issues with semantic authorial intent arguments anyway but I can't be bothered to go in depth.
 
That Eye of Terror novel is extremely old compared to the current information available. We know the Warp transcends space and time conceptually and dimensionality means nothing to it. So it's definitely 1-A. The Warp isn't infinitely beyond the materium either.
 
Well, since no one is commenting, I guess I will.

>myriad dimensions thing

Yeah, I agree with that grammatically it doesn't mean "there are too much to express in the human language". But he did say that there were "myriad of dimensions" and within the story, and the author's other works, it is used say either countless and just "a lot".

>20D tesseract

This is a blatant 20D statement, there is nothing vague or confusing about it. How many times "dimensions" is mentioned and in what context outside of this sentence is completely irrelevant. Because in this sentence is quite clear in what it's talking about.

Not to mention it makes 0 sense to mean pocket dimensions. What does that even mean "existing at 20 pocket dimensions at ones". Not to mention it has "tesseract" in the name, which is analogous to higher-d objects in general. And it's described as infinite fractals folding in on themselves causing people to be sick of vertigo or even go mad.


The vizier placed it in Turakhin's open hand. The overlord looked down, as did Amontar.
It was a small, black pyramidal object. Its smooth inner surfaces seemed visible, moving and spiralling, whirling through infinite fractal loops, drawing the eye inwards… ever inwards, down into the darkness of an unknowable and eternal voidandnevershouldasentientmindwitnesssuchhorrorssuchhorrorssuchhor―
Amontar let out a shriek, tearing his gaze away from the tesseract and sprawling to the floor. White flashes crazed his vision, hot needles of agony searing into his mental processes as he broke the contact.
Turakhin was not so fortunate.
His eyes wide and fixed upon the stygian depths, he simply vanished into the space between moments. The unassuming artefact dropped to the floor, clattering against the marble and letting out a faint, dying wheeze of quantum impossibility.
~ The Lords of Boris​
The reactions of people viewing the tesseract labyrinth is consistent with reactions they have everytime they are see higher dimensional geometry.

Dismissing this as a "lol xd pocket dimensions" is pure nonsense.

>Brane stuff

Yeah, agree. It's pretty clear it talks about parallel universes, I don't think anyone argued otherwise.

Also 40k has uncountable alternative universes.

>M-Theory stuff

Yeah it uses the words "M-Theory" by name, but that doesn't mean anything.

First of all, different authors different interpretations. Second of all, they obviously have no idea how M-Theory works. So even if we say that 40k uses M-Theory it's not the same as the real world version, it's something completely different in verse that just shares the same name.

M-Theory in real life uses 11 dimensions, 7 of which are compact dimensions. That means that the dimensions other than the normal 3 spatial ones and 1 temporal one, are plank length.

Well we know that's not how it works in 40k, due it having a specific 20D statement, so that's wrong right of the bat. Then we know that it doesn't use compact dimensions due to the fact that tesseract labyrinths exist, almost every piece of Necron technology and architecture is higher dimensional, hell even the Deathmarks disprove this.

With the target tracked and established, the Deathmarks exit their oubliette to appear silently upon a ridge or ruin that affords unobstructed view of their quarry. From here, the Deathmarks place the hunter's mark from which they take their name ― an eerie green energy halo that plays about the target's head. The halo glows brightly through five dimensions, ensuring that no matter how far or by what manner the target flees, the Deathmarks will never lose track of them.
~ Necron Codex 5th/7th Editio​
Coupled with Semyon saying that there are myriad of dimensions (poor choice of words if there were only 11 even for Graham McNeill) and there are a couple of more "countless dimensions" statements (which Wokista has access to, you can ask him to post them when he has the time) the most you can extrapolate is that 40K doesn't use the real life version of M-Theory, they just share the name.

The 1-B rating is fine where it stands. The High 1-B rating from Aza'gorod the Nightbringer and Mag'ladroth the Void Drago should be removed if infinite dimensional Warp is disproven, since they scale from Aza'gorod fighting Khaine.
 
The M-Theory quote is meaningless. Warhammer isn't based on any real world scientfic theory and instead just pick-and-chooses numerous ideas which also vary depending on writer to writer.
 
The most that can be used is the 20-D quote then, I guess. At least in that story, Graham uses myriad to mean an arbitrary number, and something in the 20s range is arbitrarily many enough.

(I think I know which countless dimensional quote you mean and I have looked over it and there is absolutely no proof or reasons he means spatial dimensions)

Given what Ultima has said about how "beyond dimensional" beings work, what tier would The Warp be? Just arbitrarily into 1-B?
 
I maintain that the Warp in its entirety is 1-A. IT is the interpretation that makes the most consistent sense with what it represents. However, not all Warp Beings are 1-A, obviously. And the Chaos Gods as concepts and the Chaos Gods as entities aren't one and the same.
 
Yes, the Ctan will be arbitrarily 1-B, right? I mean arbitrarily as in we don't have a greatly specific number except that it >20d
 
The Materium has an unspecified number of higher dimensions and realms and stuff. So yeah. I naturally disagree with the "Uncountably high number above human language" tho.
 
So would the not boundless versions of the Chaos Gods be 1-B as well then?

As much as he was throttled in the end, Khaine still gave baby Slaanesh trouble.
 
Crabwhale said:
So would the not boundless versions of the Chaos Gods be 1-B as well then?
As much as he was throttled in the end, Khaine still gave baby Slaanesh trouble.
Click to expand...
Yeah, by scaling to being much larger than the Materium but still not transcedental conceptual beings like the true forms?
 
Crabwhale said:
So would the not boundless versions of the Chaos Gods be 1-B as well then?
As much as he was throttled in the end, Khaine still gave baby Slaanesh trouble.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much my idea.
 
FanofRPGs said:
Yeah, by scaling to being much larger than the Materium but still not transcedental conceptual beings like the true forms?
Click to expand...
Yes.
 
Okay, so I think it would be like this?

C'tan Shards: 4-B to 4-A (Can Matt give me the black hole quote?)

C'tan and Aledari Gods: 1-B (Anywhere between >20-D to 10,000-D cuz Myriad means ten thousand in Greek which is a good arbitrary high end)

Gork and Mork, Daemons, and Chaos God Avatars: Unknown, at least 1-B (Dimensionality doesn't function or have meaning in the Warp and Realspace shows greater complexity than in the Materium, but they still exist far beyond that of Realspace and so should be at least 1-B)

True Chaos Gods/Emprah: Baseline 1-A (Exist conceptually beyond all space and time at the most fundamental abstract level of the Warp)

Ynnead: Meta-One 1-A (Transcends both the Materium and Immaterium)
 
I said Gork and Mork were said to be stronger together than any individual Chaos God in regards to their Warp avatars, not their conceptual forms.

They should be 1-B as well.
 
Okay, I will fix that

I haven't actually posted the quotes for the Ctan yet. I will get to it. I just need two things:

  • Quote about the Ctan shards holding up a black hole?
  • Quotes about Magladroth creating an infinite space?
 
Stuff which can be used to justify the C'tan tiering:

  • Transliminal Stride - Using its ability to manipulate the space-time continuum and extradimensional realities, the Transcendent C'tan can move across the battlefield to a predetermined point, simply phasing through all obstacles or opponents in its path. (I need a source for this tho)
They Embody the Materium
These two feats come from the Belisarius Cawl Novel:

We are similar. You are not yourself, and nor are we. You are a composite. We are a fragment. Be not mistaken, we have no special affection for you, this is our sole connection. But it is enough to convince us to spare you, Cawl of the humans. You shall free us. You shall be rewarded. We are mighty enough to survive separation from the confinement of the necrodermis. We shall journey the galaxy, and join with our sundered parts. The necrontyr will rue the day they chose to betray their gods. We gave them everything they wished for and they killed us. They will pay.
The being's rage was cold, almost emotionless, expressed in the furious vibrations of atomic energies rather than through cruder, chemical reaction.

For aeons we have been imprisoned within this mountain. For aeons we have plotted our revenge. Eight fragments of eight gods were given over to slavery here. We consumed the others to survive. The necrontyr are fools. They are arrogant. They kept too large a piece of us alive to power this nodal point of theirs. They will regret it, for we remember what we were, and what we will one day be again. The infosphere's cascades of light stuttered. A different light took its place, a brassy star shine. From the night of the nowhere realm it shone, coalescing as the mountain spoke into a figure that had no shape, forcing Cawl's mind to impose a form he could understand upon it; arms, legs, a head, a torso forged of gold.

We are the ultimate manifestation of order. No logic or illogic can bind me.

It spoke now with a mouth that blazed with stolen sunlight.

We are Zarhulash, the Potentate. We are C'tan, of the stars and the tides of time and light. We are the manifestation of this universe's form and being. We are a god, and you will serve me. Set me free.
~ Beilsarius Cawl: The Great Work​
And

You are reckoned strong in the ways of the soul sea? It glowered at Primus, then moved its hand and lifted it, palm upwards. Primus dropped Cawl's axe as he began to choke, and rose kicking from the ground. He clutched at his throat. Then match yourself against us. It glared dismissively at Primus. Feeble. Even in our weakened state, you cannot oppose us. The power of the warp is nothing to mastery of the physical realm. We were true gods, the living embodiment of this universe. Those of the warp are pale shadows. We are the light! it roared. Its shining body flared with the stolen power of extinct suns. The chamber trembled in response. The sarcophagi jiggled in the air. One listed, turning aside, falling down slowly.
We are Zarhulash, the Potentate. It gestured, and a bladed rod flashed into being in its left hand, and a crown blurred into existence over its head, both made of the same, silvery metal caging the C'tan's light. We are a lord of space and time. We are a manifestation of reality's living soul. It gestured again and Primus was flung backwards. His armour crashed against the portal housing, and he fell heavily to the floor. He, too, attempted to rise, but the C'tan flattened him with a twitch of its finger, pushing down like a man squashing an insect. Primus was crushed onto the ground. His armour began to creak under the pressure.

Cawl moved forwards. 'Master, please! I beg you not to kill Primus. He is a loyal slave, and will serve you as faithfully as he serves me.' You are reckoned strong in the ways of the soul sea? It glowered at Primus, then moved its hand and lifted it, palm upwards. Primus dropped Cawl's axe as he began to choke, and rose kicking from the ground. He clutched at his throat. Then match yourself against us. It glared dismissively at Primus. Feeble. Even in our weakened state, you cannot oppose us. The power of the warp is nothing to mastery of the physical realm. We were true gods, the living embodiment of this universe. Those of the warp are pale shadows. We are the light! it roared. Its shining body flared with the stolen power of extinct suns. The chamber trembled in response. The sarcophagi jiggled in the air. One listed, turning aside, falling down slowly.

We are Zarhulash, the Potentate. It gestured, and a bladed rod flashed into being in its left hand, and a crown blurred into existence over its head, both made of the same, silvery metal caging the C'tan's light. We are a lord of space and time. We are a manifestation of reality's living soul. It gestured again and Primus was flung backwards. His armour crashed against the portal housing, and he fell heavily to the floor. He, too, attempted to rise, but the C'tan flattened him with a twitch of its finger, pushing down like a man squashing an insect. Primus was crushed onto the ground. His armour began to creak under the pressure.

Cawl moved forwards. 'Master, please! I beg you not to kill Primus. He is a loyal slave, and will serve you as faithfully as he serves me.'''
~ Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work​
Mastery of the Materium
There are also two quotes about mastery over realspace. Though only one of the two do I think should be used, here they are:

The Old Ones' mastery of the warp was now countered by the C'tan's utter supremacy in the material universe, and the enemies of the Necrons suffered greatly in the slaughter which followed.
~ Codex: Necrons 3rd edition pg 25​
While I would use this quote, it doesn't seem supportive enough. The C'Tan have "utter supremacy" not over but in the material universe. Let's put it this way. The German Empire has mastery of land combat which countered the British Empire's utter supremacy in the ocean. Does the British Empire literally have the power to control the tidal forces of the world's oceans? No, and plus the Old Ones themselves don't have literal infinite-wide control over the Warp. So I don't liek this quote, but there is, luckily, a much blunter and more direct quote for the C'tan:

Patience! This is brought to light in the knowledge I am about to impart. There was a time, before even the birth of Humanity, when the Eldar fought hard to stop the works of the Necron gods, who they called Yngir. One of these, the most powerful of its kind, was exterminating the Eldar. They named it the Void-Dragon, Oblivion itself, a figure of wanton destruction and devastation in Eldar mythology. It had such mastery over the material realm that its warriors were practically invincible. Just one of its servants could slaughter hundreds of Eldar before falling, only to rise once more. They could channel lightning into their foes, and it is said the battlefields of that time were thick with the charred remains of those that dared oppose them.
There is one other quote from some codex or guidebook that said they had infinite power which I admittedly swept under the rug in denial, I cannot find it now, but the quote exists.

So I think for the True C'tan, it could be written like this: At least Hyperversal (The True C'tan are beings of infinite power which embody all space and time and have such mastery over the Materium that they could fight the Warpbound Aledari Gods on even ground. The Materium consists of infinite diverging timelines and pocket universes and has a "myriad" number of spatial dimensions in excess of 20+ dimensions, with higher dimensional branespaces which are so complex in nature it "cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language")
 
FanofRPGs said:
Okay, so I think it would be like this?

C'tan Shards: 4-B to 4-A (Can Matt give me the black hole quote?)

C'tan and Aledari Gods: 1-B (Anywhere between >20-D to 10,000-D cuz Myriad means ten thousand in Greek which is a good arbitrary high end)
Click to expand...
Why would basic shards be 4-B to 4-A? Transcendent shards should be 4-A, but don't know which feats ordinary shards have to put them there.

  • Quote about the Ctan shards holding up a black hole?
  • Quotes about Magladroth creating an infinite space?
Can't remember from the top of my head where the black hole thing is from. But about Mag'ladroth, I think they're referring to this. Not sure what else is there but that.

I haven't read Belisarius Cawl myself, but I definitely should it seems to have a lot of interesting stuff in it. And it seems like it has solid reasoning for them to have Abstract Existence.

I'm going to make a thread about the C'tan's powers and abilities later.
 
I need the source for that one transliminal stride

I also have no time to actually read Bellisarius Cawl so I'd rather have the direct page/except from it
 
FanofRPGs said:
I need the source for that one transliminal stride
I also have no time to actually read Bellisarius Cawl so I'd rather have the direct page/except from it
Click to expand...
I'm trying to add you on Discord so I can actually talk to you about 40K in an efficient manner.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
FanofRPGs said:
I need the source for that one transliminal stride
I also have no time to actually read Bellisarius Cawl so I'd rather have the direct page/except from it
Click to expand...
I'm trying to add you on Discord so I can actually talk to you about 40K in an efficient manner.
Click to expand...
I was kicked off the FC/OC discord for... reasons, I will try to get back on.
 
I'm still slighlty confused, the Warp is has the entire concept of space, time, dimensions, causality, and physics thrown out the window, but the Chaos Gods embody this disorder on a larger scope? Like Daemons simply have it so htese concepts are super malleable and can mess with it, but it's irrelevant to the Chaos Gods?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

AbaddonTheDisappointment
  • Locked
The Emperor and Horus Reworks (Warhammer 40,000)
Replies
16
Views
2K
Planck69
Planck69
AbaddonTheDisappointment
  • Locked
The Great Warhammer 40,000 Downgrade
2
Replies
47
Views
5K
Crabwhale
Crabwhale
  • Locked
Revisiting the power levels of several characters in the Warhammer universe.
Replies
1
Views
2K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Yourpancake
The Ruinous Powers Corrupt Your Chosen Verse
Replies
16
Views
2K
Yourpancake
Yourpancake
  • Locked
Putin fights The Emperor of Mankind.
Replies
8
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top