Warhammer 40,000: Higher Dimenshuns and Stuff

[Crabwhale]

Well as we all know the tiering system revision has now officially been yeeted down our throats.

...No this was not planned at all. Anyway, this brings up numerous questions regarding Warhammer, the Chaos Gods, Emperor, and most higher scale Warp entities and how their dimensions could fit in the new system.

This is a thread to encourage discussion on how the eventual adaption of the new system will affect the relevant profiles.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Will watch until it gets old and forgotten.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I will post the quotes I have for my opinion

 

[Crabwhale]

Will watch until it gets old and forgotten.

Uh

Kind of a sad note to start on don't ya think?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Just going by the justifications, I think 1-A would become Low 1-A. High 1-B seems fine, I think.

(Able to create and control structures of any dimensional size, such as an infinite-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor that is far above the combined knowledge and essence of the material universe, which already contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they "cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language")

That's pretty solid IMO

 

[FanofRPGs]

Just going by the justifications, I think 1-A would become Low 1-A. High 1-B seems fine, I think.
(Able to create and control structures of any dimensional size, such as an infinite-dimensional realm of thought and metaphor that is far above the combined knowledge and essence of the material universe, which already contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they "cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language")

That's pretty solid IMO

I plan on changing it, but I need to compile the quotes into an argumentative quote, I am looking through one story now

 

[FanofRPGs]

So I think I want to start on the myriad dimensions quote, and why I think it signifies higher infinities more than the number of dimensions:

'Who am I? Now there's a question. One might as well ask how many stars there are in the heavens, though that would have a definite answer. Or would it? Ah, it's been so long since I have seen them. Are they still there or have the others devoured them?' 'The stars?' asked Dalia. 'Of course the stars,' snapped the adept. 'Are they still there?' 'Yes, they're still there.' 'How many?' 'I don't know,' said Dalia. 'Millions, I think.' 'Millions she says,' laughed the adept. 'And not a second after she says she knows not.' Rho-mu 31 stepped between Dalia and the cackling adept. 'I won't ask again,' said Rho-mu 31. 'Tell me your name.' 'My name,' said the adept, looking confused. 'Ah, but it's been so long since I needed one and it gets so hard to remember. I need no name, for my name is insignificant against the vast, echoing emptiness of the darkness, but men once called me Semyon.' 'And what are you doing here?' asked Dalia. 'Here?' cried Semyon, throwing his arms wide and spinning around like a lunatic. 'You have such a limited understanding of the material world, girl. Words like here and there have no meaning. The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!' Semyon stopped with his back to Dalia and looked over his shoulder, his face alight with the fire she had seen in Jonas Milus' eyes before his body had disintegrated. 'I am the Guardian of the Dragon!' said Semyon.''
	~ Mechanicum, pg 315​

Here is the first of the many main quotes regarding dimensionality and the Materium in Warhammer. So let's dissect it. According to Azathoth The Abyssal Idiot, Semyon is a priest of Mars who is at first is portrayed as cryptic and untrustworthy, but proves himself later on in the story to be a valuable source of information on the history and state of the Warhammer galaxy and the C'tan. As such we can trust his word here. However, as I read this quote the first time having been given the interpretation I was told to believe by previous interpretations, I assumed the quote meant "The number of dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!" However, seeing the full context to the statement, I was perplexed on why such a tirade would happen under the pretense that he meant the quantity of the dimensions in realspace. It just made no sense to me and that's why I discredited the statement despite its genuinity. However, a friend suggested another possibility as to what he meant which I never considered. It is simple, instead of assuming Semyon is saying "There are an x-number of dimensions," it would make more sense that he is saying "The x-number of dimensions are." What I am getting at is Semyon is telling Dalia that not that there are such a high number of dimensions in the material universe that it cannot be described by the human tongue, but instead that the various dimensions themselves, regardless of number, are impossible to describe by human language. This is especially clear if one reads the quote with an unbiased presupposition that he wasn't meaning uncountable number of dimensions. Read the quote again; "The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!'" I ask, where does one find him actually meaning "the number of dimensions?" What was assumed was that "myriad" means "number of" because myriad tends to be defined as "an arbitrarily large variety or number," but it doesn't mean "number of." To further prove that it just means "numerous" in context, I found that the author of Mechanicum actually is quite fond of using the word;

"Mighty heroes battle for the right to rule the galaxy. The vast armies of the Emperor of Earth have conquered the galaxy in a Great Crusade ― the myriad alien races have been smashed by the Emperor's elite warriors and wiped from the face of history."
	~ Mechanicum, pg 2​

The Fabricator General was an imposing individual, a figure rendered massively tall by the machine parts and bulky augmetics that had replaced eighty-seven point six per cent of his flesh. Mechadendrites, alive with blades, saws and myriad other attachments waved at his back, while innumerable data wheels pulsed within him. Kane wondered how much of a body could be replaced with technology and still be called human.
	~ Mechanicum, pg 95​

Almost all the myriad means of information transfer were, however, vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the scrapcode boiling out from the depths of Olympus Mons in the dead of the Martian night.
	~ Mechanicum, pg 179​

In all three of these quotes, all the other times "myriad" is used in this same work, the word myriad is shown to mean numerous and various. I.E Semyon's quote can be taken as "The various dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!'" And this demystifies what he means. He is talking about the quality not quantity of the higher dimensionality of the material universe. I.E that Dalia's usage of the words "here and there" is vague and naive to the scope of Semyon, an adept in higher dimensional lore and space, and so he complains about her casual usage of these words when it means nothing to him. Using the words "here" and "there" mean absolutely nothing to 4 dimensional hyperspace even in real life, and we can use comparative terms to placehold what we mean, like hypervolume, but we cannot properly define it with our human language as the actual mathematical language for higher dimensions is well…




So basically what Semyon is saying is that higher dimensions in the Material Universe have additional displacements and directions we cannot comprehend and our limited tongue makes analogical equivalents to because we cannot properly express what directions in a higher dimensional space means unless we use mathematical language. He wasn't talking about the number of dimensions in Realspace, we just know there is a "myriad" of them which just means "numerous" or "various" in the context of how the story uses the word in other times. Now the quote does say there are numerous dimensions via the proxy word "myriad," and this makes on question "Just how many dimensions are there then?" I will get to that with the next quote.

Lastly, as I said, I was perplexed on why Semyon would even go onto this tirade. Reading the quote, I think I know why this scene was even here. The whole quote in the first place was clearly a bit of hypocritical and ironic humor as Semyon goes into an eccentric tirade directed at Dalia for using the words "here" and "there" when as we see in the quote, he did it himself several times. So the whole thing is just to show him being eccentric and a bit hypocritical, but I do believe that shouldn't downplay any credence to the veracity of what he says here.

TL;DR, the myriads dimensions quote refers to the higher dimensions' qualitative superiority, not their quantitative scope. This makes more contextual sense why the topic would be brought up, with the number of dimensions has no correlation to the matter of using the words "here" and "there," but the quality of dimensions do correlate well. When "myriad" is used here, I also don't believe it means countless or a large number, just various or many given how the author has used such word prior.

Next up I will discuss the 20-D C'tan feat, but I need to formulate my opinions on it as I have been given new insights from rereading its source.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Interesting

 

[FanofRPGs]

Now for the 20-D C'tan feat, context of the greater story matters. I propose this metric be used as we analyze the term "dimension,"

• Type 1: Reference to length x width x height

• Type 2: Reference to pocket dimensions, universes, or acceses from wormholes

• Type 3: Higher spatial dimensional axes (This is what we are interested in)

• Type 4: Holograms, projections, or maps being 2-D or 3-D

• Type 5: The dimension of the Warp

• Type 6: Ambiguous, we need to go by further context clues around the story and the author intent to decide what it means

Here is the 20-D feat in question:

The C'tan (see page 107 can be reactivated with the assistance of the master program, which it refuses to give. The devices cannot be destroyed with conventional explosives, as the Heretics soon realise that the crystalline obelisks and the central pillar do not fully exist in a physical sense. In fact, they are physical manifestations of the hibernation tesseract and exist in 20 dimensions at once.
	~ Black Crusade: Hand of Corruption, pg 106​

This statement I want to assume means 20 spatial dimensions, or type 3, because it is called a hibernation tesseract, which tends to do with higher dimensions:

(mathematics) The four-dimensional analogue of a cube; a 4D polytope bounded by eight cubes (in the same way a cube is bounded by six squares). (science fiction) Any of various fictional mechanisms that explain extradimensional, superluminal, or time travel outside the geometry of the physical universe.
	~ Wiktionary​

However, even going by these quotes, a tesseract would either mean 4-D, or something to do with extradimensional (As in inter-universal) stuff, not n-dimensional objects. So I am starting to question if it really means that.

One may argue contextually it could still mean higher spatial dimensions because how it's true nature is, but this is still not 100% clear as the usage of dimension in this story is never used as such. Here are all references to dimensions in Hand of Corruption (I cannot link the quotes as I am on a school computer):

• Page 82, type 6, likely type 2
• Page 93, clearly type 1
• Page 106 (The 20-D statement), type 6, either type 2 or 3
• There are 17 mentions of Dimensional Corridors which are wormholes aka type 2 (one in page 102, five in page 107, three in page 108, four in page 111, and one in page 112)
• Page 108, clearly type 1
• There are 4 mentions of the C'tan ability "Transdimensional Thunderbolt" which is type 6/just a flashy name (two in page 117 and two in page 136)

A huge portion of references to dimension has to do with wormholes/pocket dimensions, much more. There is no example of a type 3 statement except what can be argued for the 20-D statement. Given this, it can be deduced that what it more likely said is that this Hibernation Tesseract encompasses itself across 20-pocket dimensions at once meaning it has no focal central point to destroy unless you have multiuniversal transdimensional range. Conversely, it can be compared to other higher dimensional statements in other stories and as such, I'd say it can be argued with a liberal interpretation to be 20-D, but it is contextually safer to assume it means it encompasses 20 separate pocket realms.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I believe while we discuss dimensions, we should ask "how do dimensions even work here?"

I will use two main sources:

Source 1

'Is the Saint dying?' 'Baron Roland, House Cadmus,' says Vril, as though only now just confirming my identity. 'The Binary Apostle is maintaining the brane shield, which is, as you are aware, keeping us alive, but the effort of doing so is destroying him.' 'I have never heard of a brane shield,' I say. 'I should be surprised if you had,' he says, holding up a hand to forestall any response at the implied insult to my intelligence. 'It is incredibly ancient techno-arcana that relies on an understanding of M-theory. Do you possess such an understanding, Baron Roland?' 'No, but I am a quick study.' Vril pauses, no doubt trying to think of how he can explain something complex to a man he believes to be mentally subnormal. 'The central conceit is that our visible, four-dimensional universe is restricted to a brane, that is, a membrane, inside a higher dimensional space,' he begins, and already I feel any hope of comprehension fall away. 'A theoretically infinite number of dimensions of potentially infinite scale occupy other branes, which, in effect, means there can be an endless series of alternate realities, intersecting with our own in ways we cannot possibly imagine in any currently posited cosmological model.' The silence that follows his 'explanation' tells him all he needs to know of how much we have understood. 'So a brane shield moves us out of the brane in which our known universe exists and into another,' says Anthonis. 'Now is that a pre-existing brane or a newly created one?' We turn to look at Anthonis and he shrugs. 'I have a lot of time to read now,' is his explanation, and I almost burst out laughing until I remember why he now has a lot of time to read. Adept Vril has the good grace to sound impressed when he says, 'A simplistic way of interpreting a complex theory, but, in essence, correct. And in answer to your question, the field generator shifts us into the nearest unoccupied brane, one yet to develop its own internal universe. There we reside in splendid isolation. Nothing can interact with us, but nor can we interact with anything beyond the extent of the field until its deactivation returns us to our origin point.'''
	~ Knights of the Imperium, pg 152-153​

In order to shield themselves, a brane shield, priorly called a "brane displacer," is utilized. This quote here is basically the character trying to concisely describe how any of this even works. So basically, it reveals that the Realspace of Warhammer 40k uses M-Theory and Brane Cosmology. Brane Cosmology is the idea that our universe is embedded into a higher dimensional brane which floats in higher dimensional space. The main point of contention comes from the part where Vril says 'A theoretically infinite number of dimensions of potentially infinite scale occupy other branes, which, in effect, means there can be an endless series of alternate realities,' Two interpretations can come from this part of the whole quote:

1. Does he mean an infinite number of dimensions as in other dimensioned-universes embedded in infinite branes?
2. Does he mean infinite higher dimensions past the main 4 we know exist?

Argument one makes sense in plotwise, that the whole point of this lecture was to explain how the Brane Shield can be used to shift into one of possibly infinite alternate universes due to how branes work. As such, dimensions mean these other universes embedded in a brane floating within a higher dimensional space. This also makes parallelistic and logical sense. Vril just said that universes are embedded in membranes of a higher dimensional space. Claiming these dimensions mean higher dimensional spaces is contradictory to Vril already stating that higher dimensional branes are themselves within a higher dimensional space. Plus, after discussing the possibility of infinite alternate realities due to there being infinite dimensions, its logistics are discussed: "'So a brane shield moves us out of the brane in which our known universe exists and into another,' says Anthonis. 'Now is that a pre-existing brane or a newly created one?''" and "'And in answer to your question, the field generator shifts us into the nearest unoccupied brane, one yet to develop its own internal universe. There we reside in splendid isolation.'" And here they are talking about the existence of other universes, and not of higher dimensional spaces. Plus, according to the second variant of Randall―Sundrum model of String Theory, Large Extra Dimensions can be infinite in scale. However, as stated, this was just the second sub-model of just one of many models which usually still peg the size of Large Extra Dimensions to be in the millimeter scale and finite or not, there couldn't be an infinite number of Large Extra Dimensions because that eventually will make gravity infinitely weak. Nevermind the fact that M-Theory bases itself on 10 Spatial Dimensions and 1 Temporal Dimension to keep itself mathematically sound and the Randall-Sundrum model explicitly uses only 5 dimensions in its cosmology. This gives credence to the idea that the infinite number of dimensions part here means infinite number of dimensional-universes within infinite other branes that themselves could be infinite in size, because that is a possibility commonly discussed in quantum physics.

The second argument is based on keeping vocabulary consistency and some other interpretations of LED theories. As seen in the quote, he mentions higher dimensions prior, and then mentions just after that an infinite number of dimensions, so wouldn't it make sense for him to mean those dimensions to be spatial dimensions too? Furthermore, it is proposed that gravity can still simply be bound to the four-dimensional brane itself not have any relation with higher dimensions, allowing theoretically infinite Large Extra Dimensions. However I am not sure if such a theory is as popular as the interpretation that Large Extra Dimensions would be millimeters in scale. And as for while it would make grammatical sense, it wouldn't make contexual sense as he just said universes embedded in branes are within higher dimensional space, and now he contradicts it by saying higher dimensions are embedded in branes?

Because of this, I personally believe it is an argument one that is correct and that he means infinite numbers of dimensions as in infinite universes because it just makes more context to the plot. He is discussing how Brane Cosmology will allow the existence of other universes and then they shift into another universe. Dimensions make more sense then to mean these other dimensional-branes.

Another statement on the nature of the brane:

I do not pretend to comprehend the techno-sorcery of a brane shield, but to see it in action is to feel its working on a visceral level. Its outer limits are marked by the same undersea-haze, desert-mirage we saw from the outside, with one crucial difference. From the outside, we saw a static image of the forge-temple as it was at the instant of the shield's activation. From the inside we see the tyranid host, but they are ghosts to us, moving among us as phantoms. The beasts are oblivious to us, as insubstantial as mist. They move among us like reflections on still water, separated by an infinitesimal skein of interdimensional membrane.
	~ Knights of the Imperium, pg 162​

It sounds like they are separated by a domain wall, given this description from wikipedia:

There exists a class of braneworld models where the brane is assumed to be a domain wall formed by interacting extra-dimensional fields. The matter is localized due to the interaction with this configuration and can leave it at sufficiently high energies. The jargon term for this domain wall is "thick brane" in contrast to the "thin brane" of the models where it is described as delta-potential or simply as some ideal surface with matter fields on it.
	~ Wikipedia​

In M-Theory, there are our 3 main spatial dimensions, 1 dimension of time, and an additional 7 spatial dimensions. These 7 spatial dimensions could be what Semyon was talking about with respect to "myriad dimensions" in Mechanicum. Here is another reference to dimensionality in Warhammer 40k.

Source 2

'Give me your hypothesis, Forgemaster,' said Helbrecht. 'I do not believe the cythor are entirely of our realm of existence, my liege,' said the Forgemaster. [Jurisian] 'This stinks of warpcraft,' growled Gulvein. 'This is not the work of the warp. The geometries of the warp defy explanation of any kind. If anything, these dimensions here exhibit a greater complexity. Many of us have noticed the inconstancy of the rooms here, the lack of match between exterior and interior.' 'Aye,' said Helbrecht. 'I have seen it for myself'. Jurisian nodded, the movement accompanied by the faint whirr of muscle bundles. 'Though complex, the dimensions of this place are explicable. This whole habitat is an expression of higher dimensional physics'. 'Explain,' said Gulvein. 'The universe we exhibit comprises four dimensions ― height, width, depth and time. These creatures are, perhaps, natives of more'. 'You speak of the warp,' said Bayard. 'I do not,' said Jurisian. 'The warp is separate, unto itself, another realm entirely. There are more dimensions than the four in our own field of existence. It is through these that entrance to the warp is affected, and how some of the greater mysteries of the Adeptus Mechanicus are realised, but these dimensions are not of the warp. They are as real and physical as the heft of your sword, or the roundness of your bolts'. 'I do not understand,' said Bayard. 'Imagine, champion, that you lived in a world of three dimensions instead of our four,' said Jurisian patiently. 'Width, depth and time. You would have no concept at all of up or down, as there would be no height. It would appear perfectly normal to you. But that would not mean that height did not exist, only that you are incapable of perceiving it. So it is here'. 'You speak in riddles. If such a place existed, I would be able to see it. I can see no flat world, and so it is not there!' said Bayard. 'I speak of the greatest mysteries of the temples of Mars. It is not given to you or even to me to understand them, but that does not mean they do not exist'. Helbrecht spoke. 'You posit then a creature that exists as a physical being, not a witch or daemon born out of the warp?'. 'Yes, my lord. These new forms of the cythor are as real as you or I, but possess further dimensionality to them that makes them difficult for us to perceive. Forgive me, my lord, but I am unable to elucidate further. This field of study is the preserve of the greatest of the magi of Mars. My only knowledge of it is practical ― the application of these prayer-equations to the proper functioning of field generation and suchlike. I do not know sufficient incantations to reveal the secrets encoded within this man or this building'.''
	~ Crusaders of Dor​

Explicit reference to higher dimensions as degrees of freedom, range, and displacement. The removal of a certain dimension from our senses removes the ability to perceive it. So you could exist across time, length, and area, but without volume you would not perceive and displace yourself across height. Also, do note that he states that there are more spatial dimensions, which is due to the fact that Warhammer 40k uses M-Theory and so it is overall likely 11-D

Lastly, I want to emphasize this part:

This is not the work of the warp. The geometries of the warp defy explanation of any kind. If anything, these dimensions here exhibit a greater complexity.

This will be important once I discuss how dimensionality works in the Warp (Don't worry, Ynnead and the Chaos gods will remain 1-A)

 

[FanofRPGs]

So what do you guys think? Or do you think I just killed the thread with walls of texts?

(I find it funny that dimensional tiering changes to our system really began because I got salty muhdimenshunz were in 40k in 2017)

 

[PsychoWarper]

What you said makes sense and you've definitely put alot of thought and time into this so im interested to see your thoughts on the Warp (As well as what others have to say).

 

[FanofRPGs]

What you said makes sense and you've definitely put alot of thought and time into this so im interested to see your thoughts on the Warp (As well as what others have to say).

I want the Warp to be 1-B because i'm a dirty downplayer but I can understand clearly where the 1-A arguments come from. Let me go through them:

First off, we know the Warp is dimensionless:

The Warp has no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography.
	~ Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.), pg 8​

Rereading the quote, "dimensions" here can mean either Type 1 or Type 3, as in there is no length/width/height of the warp or there is no 4-D/5-D in the warp. Both kinda coincide here.

The Warp, being a realm of imagination and emotion, doesn't have dimensionality and form unless some chooses to impose it, which is exactly the case here:

Concerns of the material world intruded on his introspective plunge, and Magnus looked out on a world of shadows and deceit. He had passed from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit without even thinking of it, and floated in a place without form and dimensions save any he desired to impose upon it. This was the entrance to the network, the nexus point that led into the labyrinth. This was what he had come to Aghoru to find.
	~ A Thousand Sons​

Another dimensionless statement

Distance was physically meaningless in the warp, but his brain could not cope with a dimensionless state, no matter his training. It was impossible to shape thoughts without a sense of up and down, near and far, in and out.
	~ All Must End​

But something being dimensionless doesn't inherently mean 1-A anymore, especially since Dimensionality is whatever one inside the Warp inside it wants it to be. Take the nine dimensional labyrinth of Tzeentch for example:

Of all the outlandish landscapes of the Warp, Tzeentch's domain is the most bizarre and incomprehensible. His realm is woven from the raw fabric of magic. The Crystal Labyrinth, as it is known, sits upon an immense, iridescent plateau, its presence felt across all of the Daemonic realms. Shifting avenues made from crystals of every colour criss-cross Tzeentch's realm as it contorts through nine dimensions at once.
	~ Codex: Chaos Daemons (6th ed.), pg 12​

Or the infinite dimensional library of thought:

''A glittering megalopolis spread before him, the flow of information that formed the hidden arteries of the Speranza. It was mountainous, rugged with hives of light and vast termite mounds of agglomerated data. Abyssal cliffs of contextually linked information hubs spiraled into fractal mazes of answers that led to ever more questions. Datacores burned like newborn suns in constellations of linked neural networks. The Speranza was in constant dialogue with itself, learning and growing with every solution gained. Heuristic in the purest sense of the word. Every paradigm of scalable time, from the cosmic day to compression of universal history to a single hour, failed utterly to capture the datascape's infinite scope. Its mysteries went back to the first stone tools hacked from river bedrock and stretched into the Omega Point, the Logos, and the Hyparxis all in one. And for all that this aspect of the Speranza was a place of knowledge and understanding, it was also one of metaphor, allusion, and maddening symbolism. Highways of light were easy enough to interpret, but what of the vast, serpentine coils arcing above and below to encircle the world before coming around to engulf itself? What of the conjoined helicies of light that split apart like the branches of a towering tree with its roots dug deep into the datascape? Could he even see these things truly or was his hominid brain simply interpreting the unknown in ways he could process? Looking down, if down was even a concept in the infinitely-dimensional realms of thought, it was clear how foolish and naive he had been to claim to have been the Speranza's master.''
	~ Gods of Mars​

And lastly that it needs infinite dimensional sextants to navigate the warp:

'This will be of interest to you, brother,' said Perturabo, holding out the complex arrangement of curved metal, winding mechanisms, and adjustable lenses. 'I made a replica of the Antikythera, just like you asked.'. To see so delicate a mechanism in Perturabo's hands seemed incongruous, as most apparatus bearing the stamp of the Iron Warriors that Atharva had seen ― save for those within this chamber ― had been brutally functional. 'Does it work?' 'I am not entirely sure,' answered Perturabo. 'You never fully explained its intended purpose or how exactly it was designed to function'. 'You've built it,' said Magnus. 'What do you think it does?' 'I believe it to be some form of navigational instrument,' said Perturabo, lifting the device to look through one of its eyepieces. 'It has the look of a sextant once used by seafarers, but with infinitely more dimensions to its operation. What manner of ocean would you be navigating to require such a device?'. 'The Great Ocean,' said Magnus. 'It allows even those without our gifts to perceive the realm beyond.'''
	~ Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero​

However, I need to assert this again, dimensionality is just whatever you want it to, as going by this quote I just posted:

Concerns of the material world intruded on his introspective plunge, and Magnus looked out on a world of shadows and deceit. He had passed from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit without even thinking of it, and floated in a place without form and dimensions save any he desired to impose upon it. This was the entrance to the network, the nexus point that led into the labyrinth. This was what he had come to Aghoru to find.
	~ A Thousand Sons​

This is consistent with what was said about dimensions in Crusaders of Dorn:

This is not the work of the warp. The geometries of the warp defy explanation of any kind. If anything, these dimensions here exhibit a greater complexity.
	~ Crusaders of Dor​

These dimensions referring to higher dimensions actually within the Materium.

This is because physics plain isn't a thing relevant to the Warp as much as emotions and imagination:

Multiple multi-coloured suns fled past, some misshapen, some ring-shaped, some joined together in complicated patterns by filaments of light and fire, some surrounded by what looked like intricate decorations made of gold and silver and brass. There was no consistency; no two were identical. It was a storm-enwrapped minor universe in which the normal laws of physics did not count. The will and imagination of daemons counted for more.
	~ Eye of Terror, pg. 97​

More quotes about how the Warp is based on emotions and not dimensionality and physics:

The warp; the immaterium; the empyrean ― all names that humanity had conjured and tried to apply to the roiling, boiling, raw energy that lay over and under and around the material universe in which the flesh and blood and bone of their species existed. It was a lexical effort to apply order and definition where there was none, the notion that by naming something it could be understood, perhaps even tamed and mastered. The problem with that was that regular humans were blind and blunt, little more than mewling infants adrift in a hostile universe that would swallow them without mercy or compunction should they trail so much as a toe in the waters that bore them. Only Chetta and her three-eyed kin could look into the face of the warp and see anything of meaning; only a Navigator could hope to do such a thing and survive with their mind intact, and even then it wasn't certain. The key to Chetta's genetics lay many millennia in the dim and distant past, even further back than the rise of the Emperor and the formation of the Imperium itself. Perhaps, somewhere on Holy Terra in the most secure vaults of the Paternova, the most senior of her people, lay the true nature of the Navigators' history. Then again, perhaps the knowledge was lost, along with so many other secrets. Chetta frowned at the warp, trying as ever to make sense of what she was experiencing. Colours without name exploded and whirled, then died in starbursts of melting hues. Sounds chased each other past the viewport, then returned to sink their claws into it. The shifting, kaleidoscopic light momentarily turned every shadow in the chamber into a face, familiar but unplaceable, screaming in agony. She winced as a stabbing pain assaulted her forehead, seeming to reach right through her third eye and into her brain, twisting at its substance with ephemeral claws.''
	~ Rites of Passage​

AND

The fact that the throne room only had a narrow field of vision was of no consequence. The warp was not the material universe, where light travelled in straight lines. There were very few rules that applied to it. A skilled Navigator could gaze out and perceive a threat that might affect the rear or underside of the craft, or something which could engulf it entirely. Distance and direction were subjective at best in the warp, as was time, and that was something Chetta could use. She wrestled with the immaterium's presentation into her mind, hardening her will into the psychic equivalent of an adamantium-tipped drill. In the same way as a warp-blind human might concentrate on focusing their eyes to see the finest detail at very close range, or their ears on detecting a single sound amidst others, Chetta chased down the thread of time in the white noise of images and sensations she was being barraged with, and followed it backwards. There. A series of shock waves, ripping through the warp and buffeting the Solarox, lines of what she could only internally verbalise as a glistening dark brown against the shifting yellow background. She fought against the feeling of her skin itching on the inside, and clung on to the images in her head. That was no warp storm; it was like no natural phenomenon of the empyrean she'd ever witnessed, if 'natural' was a term that could even be applied to this place. The shock waves were radiating outwards from another event; something else had birthed them. But what?''
	~ Rites of Passage​

As seen here, it's implied nothing has meaning in the Warp until you give it a definition, physics is nonexistent because it runs on emotions and thoughts, and dimensions are what you want it to be. Given this, and with the quote from Crusaders of Dorn, at the very least I could say is that the current High 1-B rating for Warp Beings be removed in place for Unknow, possibly 1-B or High 1-B. I should put the major caveat that only psykers, navigators, daemons, etc can do this. Your average person wouldn't have the psychic fortitude to last an instant in the Warp.

It running on emotions and all plays into the fact that the Warp is anathematic to Realspace:

The Realm of Chaos is anathema to the laws of physics and ships that navigate its depths do so by taking a skin or bubble of 'reality' with them when they enter.
	~ Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 7​

This still doesn't answer the question to why the Chaos Gods are 1-A. Sure you can change what dimensionality means and it's dimensionless and all, but does that mean 1-A? No, but this quote can be argued to uphold the 1-A rating:

Falling down a light-filled tunnel. Rushing motion, sickening vertigo. The sense of being drawn out of a chain a molecule thick. Connection was always difficult, but this... This felt like it was stretching him past the breaking point. Then, like taut elastic, he snapped back. Vertigo, again. Motion blur, quickly followed by nausea. He fought it, knowing it wasn't real. Inner ear balance that wasn't his. A centre of gravity altered. Someone else's body. New sensations, all unpleasant. The nausea diminished. The sense of dislocation passed. Light and three-dimensional space unfolded. Dimensions had meaning, again. The vectors of X, Y, and Z restored.''
	~ Zero Day Exploit​

Dimensionality is pretty much said to be meaningless in the Warp. Now I personally want to argue this is just consistent with the subjective nature of the Warp, such that you don't even use dimensions to tier the Warp in the first place because it runs on emotions not physics, but I can see this being used to argue for 1-A true Chaos Gods, it just makes sense in the greater picture. But that's not for me to decide, I would like you guys to determine which makes more sense.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I'm suggesting this so far:

• C'tan Shards: 4-B or so

• Full C'Tan: Low 1-C

• Warp Beings: Unknown, anywhere from 1-B to High 1-B

• Chaos Gods: 1-A (Unless I can prove the warp isn't transcendent to infinite realspace dimensions effectively)

 

[PsychoWarper]

Werent the C'tan Shards gonna have like some kind of tier 1 Durability? Or was that scraped.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Werent the C'tan Shards gonna have like some kind of tier 1 Durability? Or was that scraped.

I think full fledged C'tan might be clean tier 1, Specifically Low 1-C cuz 11-D = Low 1-C

 

[PsychoWarper]

Ah, I just remember you saying that the C'tan where gonna be like 4-B with like Low 1-C Durability and Hax

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean Tzeetch's "9 dimensional realm" contains an infinite dimensional library. It's also an avatar of Tzeetch not the full entity. It just goes to show his innate contradictions and how dimensions don't matter to it. Also the infinite dimensional sextant navigation is just speculation by Perturabo.

The true nature of the Warp as a realm which just transcends the materium as a whole where dimensionality doesn't matter in the slightest. The Chaos Gods should stay 1-A. Personally I think major Warp Beings should just be 1-A. Such as Gork and Mork and the Eldar Pantheon but I guess I can see them being High 1-B since they transcend the materium.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I mean Tzeetch's "9 dimensional realm" contains an infinite dimensional library. It's also an avatar of Tzeetch not the full entity. It just goes to show his innate contradictions and how dimensions don't matter to it. Also the infinite dimensional sextant navigation is just speculation by Perturabo.
The true nature of the Warp as a realm which just transcends the materium as a whole where dimensionality doesn't matter in the slightest. The Chaos Gods should stay 1-A. Personally I think major Warp Beings should just be 1-A. Such as Gork and Mork and the Eldar Pantheon but I guess I can see them being High 1-B since they transcend the materium.

I am looking at the book which is supposed to have the infinite-d library quote and I don't see it. Keep in mind that I have also sufficiently argued against High 1-B Materium I feel.

Ah, I just remember you saying that the C'tan where gonna be like 4-B with like Low 1-C Durability and Hax

New stuff came out from Belisarius Cawl, even shards could do 4-B stuff

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean when I see the word "dimension" I don't presuppose it not to follow the standard definition unless something indicates otherwise. So a 20-dimensional tessaract can still be a thing unless there's references of the word "dimension" actually being used to describe alternate universes.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Dimension was used 17/25 times in the story with the 20-D feat to mean a wormhole/pocket dimension, 4 times to mean the C'tan's Transdimensional Thunderbolt ability, 2 times for length x width x height, and 2 times (including the 20-D statement) where it's vague. The other statement more likely refers to the pocket dimensional mastery of the C'tan in general, so dimensions never contextually meant higher spatial dimensions in it aside for the interpretation of the Tesseract, which I just assumed meant higher-D cuz I thought tesseract meant n-dimensional, when it means specifically 4-D. So I think it more likely refers to alternate universes.

Okay, what is the Speranza? It seems the "realms of thought" thing was inside it somehow?

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay, for the Gods of Mars Quote, I have more context on the infinite dimensional datascape quote:

A conduit was established, a connection made. Like a surge tide in spate, the world spirit of the Speranza rose up to engulf Kotov and Telok. And not just the Speranza's. I have been here before. That was the first thought to enter Kotov's head as he saw the neon-bright datascape of the Speranza open up to him. I should be dead, was the second. He remembered Telok's claw punching down through his chest, a shattering blow of awful power. Kotov's body was largely mechanised, but enough remained of his nervous and circulatory system to make such damage almost certainly fatal. A glittering megalopolis spread before him, the flow of information that formed the hidden arteries of the Speranza. It was mountainous, rugged with hives of light and vast termite mounds of agglomerated data. Abyssal cliffs of contextually linked information hubs spiraled into fractal mazes of answers that led to ever more questions. Datacores burned like newborn suns in constellations of linked neural networks. The Speranza was in constant dialogue with itself, learning and growing with every solution gained. Heuristic in the purest sense of the word. Every paradigm of scalable time, from the cosmic day to compression of universal history to a single hour, failed utterly to capture the datascape's infinite scope. Its mysteries went back to the first stone tools hacked from river bedrock and stretched into the Omega Point, the Logos, and the Hyparxis all in one. And for all that this aspect of the Speranza was a place of knowledge and understanding, it was also one of metaphor, allusion, and maddening symbolism. Highways of light were easy enough to interpret, but what of the vast, serpentine coils arcing above and below to encircle the world before coming around to engulf itself? What of the conjoined helicies of light that split apart like the branches of a towering tree with its roots dug deep into the datascape? Could he even see these things truly or was his hominid brain simply interpreting the unknown in ways he could process? Looking down (if down was even a concept in the infinitely-dimensional realms of thought), it was clear how foolish and naive he had been to claim to have been the Speranza's master.''
	~ Gods of Mars​

This gives more context. This datascape is vague, Ogbunabali suggests that it really shouldn't be applicable. This datascape is the digital soul and thoughts of the ship known as the Speranza, it is a literal imaginary thinking space. It's inherently dimensionless because does dimension and displacement really exist in your thoughts or is it just abstract and innaplicable? Like it could be connected to the Warp in that sense but it's inherently too vague and flowery to determine or be applicable to our analysis.

 

[FanofRPGs]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/477088

Here is the thing on the "infinite dimensional library"

The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time. The books, parchments and scrolls that line its ever-folding walls are bound with chains of magical fire; row upon row, shelf upon shelf, stretching into the imponderable recesses of Tzeentch's lair. Countless Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors creep and crawl here, tending the vast collection of The Hidden Library. The grimoires chatter to their keepers, trapping the Horrors in webs of deceit and scandal so that the Daemons eventually fade into the substance of the predatory library itself.
	~ Warhammer 40k Codex Chaos Daemons 6E page 13​

The consensus in the thread was not 100% clear, but reading this it seems clearly it means infinite in size. "Infinite in dimensions" =/= "infinite dimensional"

@Emperor You are saying the Sextant thing is only speculation?

 

[Crabwhale]

I agree with more-or-less everything here.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

If that's the case I think that's a valid point. Let me read all your points.

"The void is impossible for the human mind to encompass. Within the galaxy mankind calls home there are three hundred billion stars. Around these revolve hundreds of billions of worlds, and the spaces between arecrowded by a diversity of objects which defy enumeration. Mankind's galaxy is but one of trillions of galaxies in a universe of unguessable size. The distances between even proximate astronomical bodies are inconceivable to creatures evolved to walk the warmer regions of single small world. This is why the void cannot be understood. Not by men, nor by their machines. The magi of Mars insist on their understanding, but their apprehension can only ever be an abstraction, dead numbers modelled by dead-flesh cogitators. No matter how brutally expanded their minds, men cannot comprehend the majesty of the void." - Dark Imperium

It is stated anyway that humans logic cannot really be applied to the Warp in any sense. So for them to try and quantify it as infinite-dimensions is just meaningless.

The infinite dimensional library comes from the 8th edition Daemon Codex.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Can I see the quote from the 8th edition Daemon Codex?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

You already posted it.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Either way I don't see why that would be the case. And yes the sextant is speculative.

 

[FanofRPGs]

You already posted it.

Yeah, I just realized, thanks.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Your points are sound. I agree with most of them although we may differ on our semantic analysis for "myriad of dimensions". I'm inclined to agree with you on that point anyhow seeing as it makes a lot of sense.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

As for the "infinite dimensional labyrinth" I disagree with it being merely infinite in size by virtue of having an explicit statement of "infinite" but of what? "dimension". There's a difference between a statement of it being infinite and being stated effectively to have infinite dimensions.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Was the Sextant successfull used? That is the only remaining infinite dimensional statement it seems.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No, Peturabo smashes it in the next page because he didn't want Magnus to use it for his own gain.

 

[FanofRPGs]

If that's true, then it's never shown to have been succesffully used to show infinite dimensions, if it meant that. And it was all speculation in the first place, so the quote shouldn't be used?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yes that's where I'm getting at coupled with Peturabo not actually knowing what it is and speculating for Magnus (even though he built it).

 

[FanofRPGs]

Okay, so as I got it:

• The infinite dimensional datascape is metaphorical and not representative of anything tierable

• The infinite dimensional labyrinth referred to infinite size

• We never confirmed if this sextant successfully shows an infinite dimensionality for the Warp, and it was speculation of how it worked in the first place

Are there any other infinite dimensional statements however?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think so.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No however I disagree with the second bullet point as I expressed above.

 

[FanofRPGs]

No however I disagree with the second bullet point as I expressed above.

The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density. It contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time. The books, parchments and scrolls that line its ever-folding walls are bound with chains of magical fire; row upon row, shelf upon shelf, stretching into the imponderable recesses of Tzeentch's lair. Countless Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors creep and crawl here, tending the vast collection of The Hidden Library. The grimoires chatter to their keepers, trapping the Horrors in webs of deceit and scandal so that the Daemons eventually fade into the substance of the predatory library itself.

Here is the quote again. I agree they used the "in dimension" part for a reason but it doesn't make sense grammatically or contextually if it means dimensionality. First off, never has a WH quote dealing with dimensionality phrased it like that. compared to when dimensionality is used. Second, it's "in dimension," not "in dimensions;" this distinction is important as it makes it even more grammatically incompatible with refering to dimensionality, and while I have no quotes with me at this second, "in dimension" is a phrased that is used a lot in Warhammer to refer to the length x area x width of a location. Third it makes more contextual sense that it means infinite size because this library of knowledge is supposed to contain all history and truths about mortals across all time. What would infinite dimensionality even add conceptually to the main argument, let alone given it's the first proof for the argument of the nature of Tzeentch's labyrinth.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Bump, does my argument seem fine?