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I am starting to think that Medaka Box characters in versus threads are too complicated and consistently cause too much trouble to be allowed. It is possible that we should get a new rule about that.
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VS Battle Rules Loophole: Eternal Moment Paradox
- Thread starter NeoSuperior
- Start date
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What do you suggest ant?
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I don't really understand the issue here. All Fiction's time erasure is not complicated. He is erasing the time frame the attacks take, thus using a Psuedo-Time Stop. What is the issue with that?
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There are many other verses with complicated or hard to understand abilities, at least if one is not incredibly familiar with them. King Crimso comes to mind. It seems a little extreme to ban characters just for having a complicated abilityAntvasima said:
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Many hax characters with creative or complicated abilities produce those sorts of threads, but Medaka Box just has a diverse and popular selection to choose from. Many VS threads of similar franchises, but I am not sure why exactly Medaka Box ends up getting called on to be closed when many others are simply allowed to run their course
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Other threads go that way to, but usually you don't see people being called into them. I am wondering why that is
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- #50
It's because the whole claim about "retroactively removing the moment of casting All Fiction also" to ensure the first strike, or ANYTHING involving "retroactive effects" can't be claimed to be "just affecting the user themselves" to conveniently ignore any resistances, if someone with Causality Manipulation Resistance or Time Manipulation Resistance or both, happens to witness the initial use of All Fiction, because that would mean that this observer gets affected too.Iapitus The Impaler said:
An illustration:
Let's say in a speed equalized match bloodlusted Medaka and bloodlusted Opponent X (who got passive perma-active ESP with which he/she can see 4km+ in real time) need an amount of time of "T" to activate any abilities. So they both start taking their actions respectively, Opponent X uses an instantanous Soul Break ability (while observing Medaka) and Medaka opens with All Fiction to erase her time.
The innate activation time of both sides's opening move are "instantanous", i.e. 0 seconds, so both abilities activate within T + 0 seconds, i.e. at the exact same time.
However Medaka's time erasure erases her own time retroactively, so the timeframe of T + 0 gets reduced to 0. But that causes a problem: What happens to the T + 0 seconds that Opponent X clearly witnessed? Usually the memories associated with that would just vanish, but that won't work here, since Opponent X resists that.
And no, "because causality makes Opponent X never see it in the first place" doesn't work here - because Opponent X DOES infact see it. You can't say it never happens if, theoretically, within the timeframe of T Medaka could have been stopped from using the ability in the first place. So the deleted timeframe of "T" must without a doubt exist. And the observation of it can't be deleted.
Logically, based on that, it's also questionable if this is really just a speed amp. If Medaka is within the senses of someone with causality/time manipulation resistance, would the speed amp, or any other All Fiction-based ability, even work?
I do agree that just banning the characters would go too far. It's better to just set the limits of the abilities correctly instead. I mean this isn't a series like Problem Children in Another World (Mondaiji-tachi) where translation issues caused the whole verse to be deleted from VS Battles several times.
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Who said it was retroactive? Its basically just time stop, and I haven't seen anything that implies they are erasing the time frame following the action itself.
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- Thread starter
- #52
It was used as an argument that it "activates faster" than any other thought-based instantanous ability even in a speed-equalized match, thus avoiding "death on the first move" for Medaka due to simultanous activation. Also that it by-passes any resistances against Causality Manipulation, Time Manipulation, or Time Stop because it supposedly "doesn't affect others, only the user themselves".
Or so the claim was...
Or so the claim was...
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This is the first I have heard of his psuedo time stop being retroactive. The resistance thing don't really apply tho since they are effecting himself, not others. That part is correct
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- Thread starter
- #54
Yea, that works. But some people appearently wanted to have it both ways, despite this causing obvious contradictions to the ability.
By the way, what do you think about the main question of this thread, the "Eternal Moment Paradox"?
Any bloodlusted Character A who can speed amp to infinite speed indefinitly, or keep up an actual timestop that the opponent, Character B, can't resist, for all eternity, but can't defeat the "frozen" opponent no matter what they do. But Character A would never release the speed amp/timestop. Don't you think this "breaks the game"? What happens here? Win, lose, incon? Or do you think a special rule should be included that eventually the "eternal moment" HAS to end? I actually made this thread mainly with this question in mind but it became more about Medakaverse specifically than I had in mind at the beginning. Anyway, how do you think such an "Eternal Moment Paradox" should be handled?
By the way, what do you think about the main question of this thread, the "Eternal Moment Paradox"?
Any bloodlusted Character A who can speed amp to infinite speed indefinitly, or keep up an actual timestop that the opponent, Character B, can't resist, for all eternity, but can't defeat the "frozen" opponent no matter what they do. But Character A would never release the speed amp/timestop. Don't you think this "breaks the game"? What happens here? Win, lose, incon? Or do you think a special rule should be included that eventually the "eternal moment" HAS to end? I actually made this thread mainly with this question in mind but it became more about Medakaverse specifically than I had in mind at the beginning. Anyway, how do you think such an "Eternal Moment Paradox" should be handled?
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Well, I suppose that we cannot ban the characters from VS matches then, but I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can message me later, if you need my help after you reach a conclusion.
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Idk why this retroactive thing is being brought up so much.
Retroactive = skills that work by affecting the past which results in chain reactions to the present.
Any skill that works by affecting the present from the past is retroactive, this includes most forms of Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation etc. Idk why people are making such a big deal out of All Fiction being retroactive, it's not a rare case in the wiki, take Jill Presto for example which has fate hax, with similar traits, still being retroactive as a skill.
About "handling the eternal moment". What is there to handle? It's the same way we handle someone who has eternal Time Stop, accelerate to infinite speed (like pucci), hell even people with too strong of a regen have a similar thing due to being hard to kill and can therefore score an inconclusive even if they can logically not affect their opponent in the slightest.
Retroactive = skills that work by affecting the past which results in chain reactions to the present.
Any skill that works by affecting the present from the past is retroactive, this includes most forms of Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation etc. Idk why people are making such a big deal out of All Fiction being retroactive, it's not a rare case in the wiki, take Jill Presto for example which has fate hax, with similar traits, still being retroactive as a skill.
About "handling the eternal moment". What is there to handle? It's the same way we handle someone who has eternal Time Stop, accelerate to infinite speed (like pucci), hell even people with too strong of a regen have a similar thing due to being hard to kill and can therefore score an inconclusive even if they can logically not affect their opponent in the slightest.
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retroactive is not really the problem but saying no one who have relevant resistance abilities or Acausilties cannot resists is the problem when logically speaking it does affect characters as those even without reistances as view it as a the speed boost visible to them. So, relevant resistances should matters.
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Jil's cases is that she has Tier 1-A hax from The Basanos and tend put in versus thread where the opponent got no Tier 1-A hax resistance so it is not same case as Medaka Kurokami.
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It's like saying "Those who resist statistics manipulation will resist Pucci's speed amplification".
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Respectfully, this point is a False analogy; the speed boost was done with a time-related powers and those who have appropiate resistances should resists the effects.Firephoenixearl said:
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It's not ACTUAL speed amplification in the truest sense. Things like Space-domination types of abilities, Medaka probably wouldn't be able to move within with her ability, since she lacks any Space-related abilities whatsoever. And her ability forces her to affect th surrounding space when moving around. She technically still has to "walk" or "teleport" the way. One might argue that anti-teleportation measures, e.g. "Dimensional Lock"-type of abilities would also affect her.
Also what GLHF22 said: How does she cancel the "speed amp"? Or does she have to predetermine the duration?
Also what GLHF22 said: How does she cancel the "speed amp"? Or does she have to predetermine the duration?
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NeoSuperior, I guess from this point below but she does a peuso-time stop so based on the definition it should not really apply as infinte speed but a subset of time-related powers which those with relevant resistance should resist.
Speed:
Speed:
- Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.)
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Pucci's speed amp is also due to time related powers.
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My mistakes, then; in my defense, your point was with statistics manipulation resistance which is something that I never heard of and I never saw on wiki before.Firephoenixearl said:
In any case, my point still stands. Since the speed boost was done with a time-related powers and those who have appropriate time-related resistances should resists the effects.
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No. Pucci's time hax works by accelerating his own time IIRC, not others. Similarly Medaka's time hax works by erasing her "own" time. There is nothing to resist, if there is nothing affecting you. No one is arguing Pucci's speed can be resisted, because it can't it's self used time hax to gain speed, since speed is D/T, affecting your own time can affect your speed. Same thing with every speed amp that's as a result of time hax.
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Actually Pucci seems to be a different case since it affects Pucci, AND any non-living entities in the whole universe, as well as the universe itself, only excluding any living beings aside from Pucchi. But I think others would be able to resist the "reset" effect if they got the appropriate resistance.
Still, in the case of Medaka, the aspect of "retroactivity" means that it literally can not not (yes, two "not"s) affect others because the cognition of others get affected. At that point it becomes a question of how resistances interact with that.
If you think that isn't the case than do explain what happens with the observation of the "initial" version of events before they get retroactively erased.
Still, in the case of Medaka, the aspect of "retroactivity" means that it literally can not not (yes, two "not"s) affect others because the cognition of others get affected. At that point it becomes a question of how resistances interact with that.
If you think that isn't the case than do explain what happens with the observation of the "initial" version of events before they get retroactively erased.
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IfHax like Time Manipulation affect others or even affect their perpectives, those should resist the effects if they have relevant resistance; it would be No Limits Fallacy (NLF) to say relevant resistances are inappicable at all when abilties like Acausality clearly shown they do.
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Relevant Acausality like Type 4 and 5 would be unfaffected, for example. So, characters with with similar time-resistances would be unaffected as well.NeoSuperior said:
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No matter the resistances no one can resist Pucci's speed amp, they could null it at best not resist it. Because "no living being is affected".
Retroactivity doesn't affect cognition doe. It affects causality. I told you retroactivity means "if it has never been there means it's faster than it left there". Nothing about cognition, idk where you got that. Are you giving everyone with fate and causality hax mind hax too? No, because it is just speed, cognition isn't getting affected and this is the last time i say it, i won't be bothering with this point anymore, if you still have questions ask a knowledgable admin.
Nothing happens with the observation. The observer sees Medaka and X. Medaka uses all fiction, X uses basic EE. X gets erased, Medaka doesn't, because her skill reached X before X's skill could reach Medaka. What's so hard to get here?
Retroactivity doesn't affect cognition doe. It affects causality. I told you retroactivity means "if it has never been there means it's faster than it left there". Nothing about cognition, idk where you got that. Are you giving everyone with fate and causality hax mind hax too? No, because it is just speed, cognition isn't getting affected and this is the last time i say it, i won't be bothering with this point anymore, if you still have questions ask a knowledgable admin.
Nothing happens with the observation. The observer sees Medaka and X. Medaka uses all fiction, X uses basic EE. X gets erased, Medaka doesn't, because her skill reached X before X's skill could reach Medaka. What's so hard to get here?
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It does affect them, so, characters with relevant Acausality like Type 4 and 5 or with similar time-resistances see the effects since they unaffected or outright resist causal-time abilties, so the case in points, they should see these characters moving normal regardless.
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What? This is like saying someone being resistance to time manipulation can see someone moving a trillion times faster than him through time manipulating his own speed up. Sure he can see that he does so via time manip. That still dosnt allow him to tag someone a trillion time faster through that ability. Where is the logic in that??
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@Firephoenixearl
That isn't "retroactivity". Retroactive literally means "Having reference to things that happened in the past, prior to the occurrence of the act in question.", according to dictionary definition. That means if it affects the past, it WILL trigger resistances, since you'd be erasing the "old" past and overwrite it with a "new" one and it's impossible for that process not to affect others.
If you insist on your absurd omniprecense analogy, then no. That won't work either. If you stance is that it's faster than instantly, but not affecting the past, then that leads to a logical contradiction:
x >= 0
x < 0
You can't be both faster and not fater than zero. Basic logic.
That isn't "retroactivity". Retroactive literally means "Having reference to things that happened in the past, prior to the occurrence of the act in question.", according to dictionary definition. That means if it affects the past, it WILL trigger resistances, since you'd be erasing the "old" past and overwrite it with a "new" one and it's impossible for that process not to affect others.
If you insist on your absurd omniprecense analogy, then no. That won't work either. If you stance is that it's faster than instantly, but not affecting the past, then that leads to a logical contradiction:
x >= 0
x < 0
You can't be both faster and not fater than zero. Basic logic.
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Just because it happens once or 2 times in fiction dosnt mean that this is the norm. And i explained to you why assuming so is illogical.
Resisting Power modification dosnt allow you to ignore the opponent power modificating himself.
Resisting time stop dosnt allow you to ignore someone fastforwarding himself with his time manip.
Resistsing any form of statistic manipulation dosnt allow you to ignore the opponent buffing himself to oneshot range.
Just because Medaka uses causality manip to affect herself dosnt allow my causality resisting opponent to randomly tag me.
Resisting Power modification dosnt allow you to ignore the opponent power modificating himself.
Resisting time stop dosnt allow you to ignore someone fastforwarding himself with his time manip.
Resistsing any form of statistic manipulation dosnt allow you to ignore the opponent buffing himself to oneshot range.
Just because Medaka uses causality manip to affect herself dosnt allow my causality resisting opponent to randomly tag me.
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That itself is fine. My issue was with the so-called "retroactivity" that appearently doesn't seem to be retroactivity at all.
Also why is it assumed that it can just be kept up forever? Shouldn't it normally be limited to the best feat?
And as GLHF22 asked, how does Medaka "dispell" it if she can't regain the time after erasing it?
Also why is it assumed that it can just be kept up forever? Shouldn't it normally be limited to the best feat?
And as GLHF22 asked, how does Medaka "dispell" it if she can't regain the time after erasing it?
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Just because it happens once or 2 times in fiction dosnt mean that this is the norm. And i explained to you why assuming so is illogical.
It is not only twice or a few time in fiction, to be honest.
I don't the other 3 points were related, I mean the second was psedudo-time for Medaka.
The last one, feats does matter.
It is not only twice or a few time in fiction, to be honest.
I don't the other 3 points were related, I mean the second was psedudo-time for Medaka.
The last one, feats does matter.
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Bring examples then. Examples of people resisting X that ignore another opponent doing X. Examples of time manip resistance ignoring the speed amp via time manipulation of their opponents for example.
They are related in that your claim can be projected onto those topics. Those are literally the same claims you did on other subjects.
"Pseudo timestop" has 0 bearing on the mechanics of AF time erasur though. We explained to you several times this thread how AF erases its users time.
Who said they dont? AF does what it shows in the series and we limit it to what it does in the series.
They are related in that your claim can be projected onto those topics. Those are literally the same claims you did on other subjects.
"Pseudo timestop" has 0 bearing on the mechanics of AF time erasur though. We explained to you several times this thread how AF erases its users time.
Who said they dont? AF does what it shows in the series and we limit it to what it does in the series.
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