Battle of the Most Powerful Weapon | The Mind (Kumagawa vs Gremmy)

[AnonymousBlank]

Alternative argument: Orihime couldn’t use her causality manip on Ichigo’s body because of the reiatsu clinging to the wound = effects caused by reiatsu resists causality manip = Gremmy does anything GG lmao

Edit: Just in case anyone doesn’t realise, this is a joke.

 

[Adam1396]

Because that's how the mechanics inherently work - if Kumagawa was never erased in the first place then regardless of if he was erased in mind and soul he would come back... It's just basic common sense.

Also the argument about NEP is inherently asinine for many reasons I have already gone in lengths about but to summarize

1. This is not how the ability of nonexistent is explained to operate on it's own explanation page nor has any profile with NEP in only body, Mind and soul gained acausality simply for that alone on the wiki
2. Abstract Concepts like time lack physical, spiritual and mental existence but are obviously still bound by causality
3. The argument about NEP isn't even relevant to gremny in the first place because his existence Erasure being able to affect a NEP being doesn't mean the power itself inherently purely exists with the same qualities of NEP because by that logic ever Haki users would be granted every devil fruit Incorporeality on their Haki and Kumagawa's own power All fiction would be listed as existing as purely a concept since it can erase them - Like genuinely this logic is so batshit insane that I can't even believe we're having this conversation, you guys do realize that this is like arguing that if you have soul erasure your existence Erasure itself is an incorporeal soul or at least has tbe same properties. Having Nonexistence Erasure denotes interaction - It just means your EE can interact with NEP beings not that it has some or any of the same properties as them in the same way Soul Erasure or concept erasure doesn't mean your Existence Erasure is itself a soul or a concept
4. The root of the argument centers around the idea that NEP in body mind and soul are not bound by reality in a way that makes them separate from conventional causality but by that logic ever NEP would also be immune to all concept manipulation except type 1 because all the others are bound and reliant on reality which obviously isn't given unless you have the specific NEP aspect/type that's relevant to concept which is the same case with causality manipulation
5. One of the type of NEP listed [Type 5 - the catch all category for anything not already listed] has non existence of history listed as one of the possible of NEP which would be redundant and completely nonsensical of any nonexistence of the body, mind and soul alone granted made you so removed from reality that causality has no effect on you despite history also similarly to causality being a component of reality - Congratulations you've argued that an entire section of NEP is redundant because you can't accept that Gremmy loses

The entire argument is dumb and Im not going to pretend it isn't. It's backed by nothing and holds no reasonable components


And erasing the event in which that happened is another thing which inherently sidesteps the erasure as a whole... It's not hard to grasp, If he was never erased to begin with he isn't dead. End of Story.


I have but your being incredulous which is especially clear by you still harping on the soul thing -

The logic for the NEP argument is faulty at best and maliciously ignorant at worst

You still cannot grap simple thing I've said.
He can undo erasure for others. You gitta prove he can do it for himself when he is already erased on spiritual and mental level.

NEP outright neggs your whole argument.
And you didn’t provide any real counter argument to what decieved said.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

You still cannot grap simple thing I've said.
He can undo erasure for others. You gitta prove he can do it for himself when he is already erased on spiritual and mental level.

I grasp what you said it just doesn't have any value.

There's no undoing anything because the simple fact that the attack never happened means that the result is null and void. You simply can't grasp the basic idea of cause and effect.

NEP outright neggs your whole argument.
And you didn’t provide any real counter argument to what decieved said.

Nope you can't provide a single valid argument yet to the list of reasons why the argument on NEP was dumb which is to be expected seeing as how you are adamant to grasp basic cause and effect

The argument is asinine and factually incorrect being Nonexistent for one aspect of reality doesn't make you nonexistent for another which is why the ability is categorized as such because you lack physical matter, spiritual mater and mental doesn't mean your suddenly seperate from causality - if what their argument said [That bring Nonexistent in any way means your removed from reality such that conventional causality systems can't affect you] was true then NEP of the body alone would give you acausality type 4, resistant to all concept hac except type 1[The only one not tied to the reality it governs] and acausality Type 1 [Because history is a part of reality in similar regard to causality]

Non of this is true, non of it is the intended purpose of the page - non of this is on the explanation page nor the page of any user of basic NEP of the body, mind and soul and non of it holds any weight.

Cope with the facts of the matter however you like but the NEP argument is undeniable incorrect and even more so worthless because it doesn't apply to gremmy's powers for the reason I already gave

 

[Adam1396]

I grasp what you said it just doesn't have any value.

There's no undoing anything because the simple fact that the attack never happened means that the result is null and void. You simply can't grasp the basic idea of cause and effect.


Nope you can't provide a single valid argument yet to the list of reasons why the argument on NEP was dumb which is to be expected seeing as how you are adamant to grasp basic cause and effect

The argument is asinine and factually incorrect being Nonexistent for one aspect of reality doesn't make you nonexistent for another which is why the ability is categorized as such because you lack physical matter, spiritual mater and mental doesn't mean your suddenly seperate from causality - if what their argument said [That bring Nonexistent in any way means your removed from reality such that conventional causality systems can't affect you] was true then NEP of the body alone would give you acausality type 4, resistant to all concept hac except type 1[The only one not tied to the reality it governs] and acausality Type 1 [Because history is a part of reality in similar regard to causality]

Non of this is true, non of it is the intended purpose of the page - non of this is on the explanation page nor the page of any user of basic NEP of the body, mind and soul and non of it holds any weight.

Cope with the facts of the matter however you like but the NEP argument is undeniable incorrect and even more so worthless because it doesn't apply to gremmy's powers for the reason I already gave

Nope. He has to use his abilities to make it so event never happened. So you gotta prove his abilities would still be in play regardless of his existence being wiped out completely.

So still no counterargument for what deceived said.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Nope. He has to use his abilities to make it so event never happened. So you gotta prove his abilities would still be in play regardless of his existence being wiped out completely.

So still no counterargument for what deceived said.

The ability activates automatically on its own after he's already dead regardless of his input... He's got no role to play in its activation after death so that's not particularly relevant and again regardless of the damage it wouldn't have happened in the first place

I made several counters which you have no answer to and no relevant arguments against [Couldn't even provide a counter to 1 point on the list], it's not my fault if you simply want to ignore the words infront of you

 

[Deceived3596]

Bro still hasn't provided evidence on why Causality is inherently assumed to be able to manipulate nonexistent structures.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Bro still hasn't provided evidence on why Causality is inherently assumed to be able to manipulate nonexistent structures.

I'd did, just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there - The logic is dumb at all levels and clearly not so etching intended by the page nor the profile

1. This is not how the ability of nonexistent is explained to operate on it's own explanation page nor has any profile with NEP in only body, Mind and soul gained acausality simply for that alone on the wiki
2. Abstract Concepts like time lack physical, spiritual and mental existence but are obviously still bound by causality
3. The argument about NEP isn't even relevant to gremny in the first place because his existence Erasure being able to affect a NEP being doesn't mean the power itself inherently purely exists with the same qualities of NEP because by that logic ever Haki users would be granted every devil fruit Incorporeality on their Haki and Kumagawa's own power All fiction would be listed as existing as purely a concept since it can erase them - Like genuinely this logic is so batshit insane that I can't even believe we're having this conversation, you guys do realize that this is like arguing that if you have soul erasure your existence Erasure itself is an incorporeal soul or at least has tbe same properties. Having Nonexistence Erasure denotes interaction - It just means your EE can interact with NEP beings not that it has some or any of the same properties as them in the same way Soul Erasure or concept erasure doesn't mean your Existence Erasure is itself a soul or a concept
4. The root of the argument centers around the idea that NEP in body mind and soul are not bound by reality in a way that makes them separate from conventional causality but by that logic ever NEP would also be immune to all concept manipulation except type 1 because all the others are bound and reliant on reality which obviously isn't given unless you have the specific NEP aspect/type that's relevant to concept which is the same case with causality manipulation
5. One of the type of NEP listed [Type 5 - the catch all category for anything not already listed] has non existence of history listed as one of the possible of NEP which would be redundant and completely nonsensical of any nonexistence of the body, mind and soul alone granted made you so removed from reality that causality has no effect on you despite history also similarly to causality being a component of reality - Congratulations you've argued that an entire section of NEP is redundant because you can't accept that Gremmy loses

 

[Deceived3596]

I'd did, just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there - The logic is dumb at all levels and clearly not so etching intended by the page nor the profile

I read what you said and I'm not convinced. What you're doing is conflating terms like Acausality without understanding the substantive difference between being distinct from Causality vs being assumed unaffected by Causality until proven otherwise. I already explained that, but you're just incapable of understanding what I'm arguing.

So I'll ask again, what is the evidence that Nonexistent entities are assumed to be affected by Causality Manipulation that is only shown to affect material reality or structures that require their existence from material reality. If you can't answer this simple question, you must concede the debate.

 

[Kachon123]

Kumagawa watching his own funeral after Gremmy neg diffs and kills him

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I read what you said and I'm not convinced. What you're doing is conflating terms like Acausality without understanding the substantive difference between being distinct from Causality vs being assumed unaffected by Causality until proven otherwise. I already explained that, but you're just incapable of understanding what I'm So I'll ask again, what is the evidence that Nonexistent entities are assumed to be affected by Causality Manipulation that is only shown to affect material reality or structures that require their existence from material reality. If you can't answer this simple question, you must concede the debate.

Acausality is simply operating separately from conventional causality such that effects reliant on it can't affect you - The specifics of why and how you operate separately from conventional causality vary on a case by case basis but the root of your argument centers on the idea that any being with NEP of any kind is sufficiently removed from reality such that causality has won't affect them because it's a component of reality which is simply still just acausality.

But that's just one point of the matter, I also show that:

1. The Central logic of doesn't hold up: the reasoning is that the NEP bring is removed from reality thus unaffected by causality because it is a component of reality but if that [Removed/seperate from reality = Unaffected by its components] logic actually applied NEP beings of any kind would not only be unaffected by causality, which you arbitrarily singles out, they would be unaffected by other components of reality of that is your reason, including all concepts except type 1 concepts, history etc. which isn't how the power works and would make large swaths of the NEP explanation page redundant
2. It doesn't even apply to gremmy: As I've already said before, Gremmy's Existence Erasure being Non-Existence Erasure doesn't grant it or him any properties of NEP for the same reason having Soul Erasure listed on your profile doesn't mean you or your Existence Erasure are a soul/have the properties of a soul nor Concept Erasure mean you/your Existence Erasure are a concept or have the properties of one - It just denotes your Existence Erasure being able to interact with these things thus erase them. So even if we sat here and agreed on these properties being inherent to NEP it wouldn't apply to gremmy anyway

You are the one making an erroneous claim with no backing from information on any profile nor the explanation page, it is on you to provide actual proof from some actual wiki source that NEP of the body, mind or soul is treated as grant immunity to causality manipulation, you haven't done this because ironically non exists

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I unfollowed this because I knew where it was going and didn't have the energy to debate, but yeah, Blonde Tanjiro FRA.

 

[Deceived3596]

Acausality is simply operating separately from conventional causality such that effects reliant on it can't affect you - The specifics of why and how you operate separately from conventional causality vary on a case by case basis but the root of your argument centers on the idea that any being with NEP of any kind is sufficiently removed from reality such that causality has won't affect them because it's a component of reality which is simply still just acausality.

You can't just distill down an inherent property of being nonexistent to just "Acausality" because these are distinctively separate things. Acausality denotes a concrete unrestricted existence from conventional cause and effect. What I'm arguing with nonexistence is that, while they can be perceived as similar, being nonexistent doesn't inherently makes you unrestrained by conventional cause and effect in the sense that would give you Acausality.

Being nonexistent would make you not interactable by conventional cause and effect in the sense that, in Misgoi's case, reversing an event that has caused the complete nonexistence of someone, isn't assumed capable of occuring unless you can prove that Misgoi's Causality Manipulation can reverse nonexistence to existence, which hasn't been proven yet.

1. The Central logic of doesn't hold up: the reasoning is that the NEP bring is removed from reality thus unaffected by causality because it is a component of reality but if that [Removed/seperate from reality = Unaffected by its components] logic actually applied NEP beings of any kind would not only be unaffected by causality, which you arbitrarily singles out, they would be unaffected by other components of reality of that is your reason, including all concepts except type 1 concepts, history etc. which isn't how the power works and would make large swaths of the NEP explanation page redundant

It wouldn't include all Conceptual Manipulation below Type 1 as Conceptual Manipulation of both times don't inherently require the reverse of nonexistence to existence to occur. We're discussing a lack of spatial-temporal existence specifically, which is different from introducing a soul to something that lacks a soul previously through Conceptual Manipulation for example.

It wouldn't because lacking a soul would still be the same as lacking a soul under my assertion. It wouldn't even make Aspect 5 redundant as those either deal with the totality of someone, not just a singular attribute that is assumed to be unaffected until proven otherwise, or something that is separate from what I'm claiming here.

1. It doesn't even apply to gremmy: As I've already said before, Gremmy's Existence Erasure being Non-Existence Erasure doesn't grant it or him any properties of NEP for the same reason having Soul Erasure listed on your profile doesn't mean you or your Existence Erasure are a soul/have the properties of a soul nor Concept Erasure mean you/your Existence Erasure are a concept or have the properties of one - It just denotes your Existence Erasure being able to interact with these things this erase them. So even if we sat here and agreed on these properties being inherent to NEP it wouldn't apply to gremmy anyway

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Gremmy's ability doesn't actually reduce you beyond nonexistence, but rather it just erases you normally, but it can affect those who are nonexistent?

You are the one making an erroneous claim with no backing from information on any profile nor the explanation page, it is on you to provide actual proof from some actual wiki source that NEP of the body, mind or soul grant immunity to causality manipulation, you haven't done this because ironically non exists

I don't agree.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

You can't just distill down an inherent property of being nonexistent to just "Acausality" because these are distinctively separate things. Acausality denotes a concrete unrestricted existence from conventional cause and effect. What I'm arguing with nonexistence is that, while they can be perceived as similar, being nonexistent doesn't inherently makes you unrestrained by conventional cause and effect in the sense that would give you Acausality.

Being nonexistent would make you not interactable by conventional cause and effect in the sense that, in Misgoi's case, reversing an event that has caused the complete nonexistence of someone, isn't assumed capable of occuring unless you can prove that Misgoi's Causality Manipulation can reverse nonexistence to existence, which hasn't been proven yet.

I haven't distill down anything that's just literally what you've described, also it isn't an inherent property of NEP as it is nowhere to be seen on the page literally explaining how the power operates for wiki purposes

Your argument is NEP of anything [Even just the body, mind and soul = Being removed from reality = being immune to causality manipulation - if the second part about being removed from reality is that your using to qualify being unaffected by causality because it's an aspect of reality then every other aspect of reality would be grouped into this blanket immunity including concepts and history but anyone who can see how the NEP page is structured in that regard can tell that's not the case at all.

I literally have already said that he can convert nonexistence to existence as I have already mentioned that ever since the power of All Fiction got upgraded to Nonfiction during final arc chapters he's been able to erase what has already been erased... It's literally on his profile

• Non Fiction: Around the time of the fight with Iihiko, All Fiction was upgraded to undo things that have already been undone. However, this is never seen in use, as everyone Kumagawa has offered to bring lost things back for has outright refused him.

It wouldn't include all Conceptual Manipulation below Type 1 as Conceptual Manipulation of both times don't inherently require the reverse of nonexistence to existence to occur. We're discussing a lack of spatial-temporal existence, which is different from introducing a soul to something that lacks a soul through Conceptual Manipulation for example.

It wouldn't because lacking a soul would still be the same as lacking a soul under my assertion. It wouldn't even make Aspect 5 redundant as those deal with the totality of someone, not just a singular attribute that is assumed to be unaffected, not something that is concretely unaffected.

Of course it wouldn't include type 1, I literally said that like 3 times but until now you've ignored the entire point of the argument taking about concepts. The Wiki doesn't treats basic Nonexistence of the body mind and soul as providing Resistance to Type 2 or 3 concepts despite both being reliant in reality which should tell you clearly that your logic is fundamentally incorrect.

Lack of spacio temporal features is categorised as Beyond Dimensional Existence which is treated as distinct from basic NEP of the body, mind or soul

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless.

NEP of the body, mind and soul is simply lacking physical matter, spiritual substance and mental substance - That's it, it doesn't mean a lack of spacio temporal features which would grant Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 1, something that isn't given to every rando with basic NEP

And yes it would Infact be redundant because if you lack spatio temporal features for being Nonexistent in body, mind and soul the use of history as an example of Nonexistence Type 5 would be redundant because the character would already lack it as an inherent property without type 5 [History]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Gremmy's ability doesn't actually reduce you beyond existence, but rather it just erases you normally, but it can affect those who are nonu read very carefully then maybe you will grasp such a basic idea but since you are clearly confused I'll break it down f

That's not what I'm saying at all, so I'll try and break it down for you very slowly

Gremmy's Existence Erasure is only relevant in this discussion about NEP and only presents an issue to Kumagawa if we're assuming it in of itself has the properties of NEP you are proposing [That of being seperate from reality]

Characters have various forms of Existence Erasure listed such as Conceptual Erasure and Soul Erasure etc. Gremmy has Nonexistence Erasure - This means that Gremmy's Existence Erasure can interact with Nonexistent being not that the Erasure has the same properties of these beings which is what would be required for this entire conversation to be relevant.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll address this later as I don't have enough free time right now.

 

[Deceived3596]

I literally have already said that he can convert nonexistence to existence as I have already mentioned that ever since the power of All Fiction got upgraded to Nonfiction during final arc chapters he's been able to erase what has already been erased... It's literally on his profile

Now we're getting somewhere. If he can undo things that have already been undone, that would fulfill the burden I've been asking for this entire time, evidence of him being able to bring back existence from nonexistence. Now, to evolve the conversation further, is it currently accepted on his profile that this extends to his ability to resurrect himself? As from what I see on his profile, it only talks about resurrecting himself from material damage like having a screw pierced through his skull or resuscitating himself after material death.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Now, to evolve the conversation further, is it currently accepted on his profile that this extends to his ability to resurrect himself? As from what I see on his profile, it only talks about resurrecting himself from material damage like having a screw pierced through his skull or resuscitating himself after material death.

Non Fiction is the just the same ability as All Fiction but upgraded, it's not a different ability he just only has his ability upgraded by EOS. I mentioned it before when I said he used a weaker incomplete version of Nonfiction to bring Zankichi back after erasing him again

 

[RanaProGamer]

Bump

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Vote for Kumagawa

I don't see Gremmy could handle All Fiction

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Voting for Kumagawa FRA