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Void Shiki Vs Smt Dante

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Hypercyber37

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vsbattles.fandom.com

Dante (Shin Megami Tensei)

Dante is a demon hunter who is initially tasked with hunting the many demons that have infested Tokyo, including the Demi-Fiend, by Louis Cyphre after the Conception. Armed with his trusty pistols Ebony and Ivory and his demonic sword Rebellion, he cuts swathes through hordes of demons with...
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Ryougi Shiki

Shiki Ryougi (両りょう儀ぎ 式しき, Ryōgi Shiki?) is the protagonist of Kara no Kyoukai and the bearer of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, allowing her to see death and bring it upon anything "alive" for as long as she can run her knife across its Lines of Death. Hailing from a family of demon...
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both are 1-A

speed equalized
 
It seems there is an in-progress thread which may downgrade Void Shiki from 1-A, and every Megami Tensei profile, especially Dante's, are incredibly outdated, so this is not the best match-up to be running, at the current moment.
 
Hypercyber37 said:
This is funnier if he's serious
Click to expand...

seriously-laugh.gif
 
Wankbreaker said:
Come on, tell me how void shiki scales above dante and i just have to copy and paste a few paragraphs to debunk you and be done with it
Click to expand...
Even if you debunk Root, Type moon still says Shiki is one of the strongest characters in the Nasuverse. She would at least be comparable to most Nasu characters who are 8D
 
Hypercyber37 said:
Even if you debunk Root, Type moon still says Shiki is one of the strongest characters in the Nasuverse. She would at least be comparable to most Nasu characters who are 8D
Click to expand...

Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.

In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).

This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.



ill paste an excerpt I had with a certain user offsite:

”as a follow up to this, kamoshirenai is actually the lowest probability marker for these types of terms in japanese. (from highest to lowest uncertainty): かもしれない (kamoshirenai) / かもしれません (kamoshiremasen) / かも (kamo) (keep in mind that it has the particle for “not to know, but thats not exactly 100% true?) たぶん (tabun) (maybe,probably) おそらく (osoraku) (most likely,probably) きっと (kitto) (surely,definitely)”





Saber Shiki FGO Profile.

“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”

It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.



Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.



—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ

She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.

彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。



誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。


Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.

Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies 30% arcs
power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.

From Asagami Fujino's profile:
“単純な数値比べなら、物語中最高の性能。”"Simply in terms of a numerical comparison , her capabilities are the highest in the story.”
this puts her capabilities higher than any character who has appeared in KNK,which includes void shiki.

Fujino is literally just an average girl physically with a ranged dura neg ability.

also:

本物のガイアの怪物が相手なら仕方がないけれど、 相手はアラヤの怪物の劣化品。

If the opponent were a genuine Monster of Gaia, nothing could be done, but the opponent is merely an inferior imitation of a Monster of Alaya.

両儀式
相手が死に狂った末の幽霊なら、 こっちも死にもの狂いで戦えばいいだけの話ですもの。

Ryougi Shiki
If the opponent is a ghost maddened by death, then I just need to fight as if my life depends on it.

マシュ
式さん？　え、え！？

Mash
Shiki-san? Eh, eh!?

両儀式
はじめまして、マシュさん。 こんばんは、藤丸さん。

Ryougi Shiki
Nice to meet you, Mash-san. Good evening, Fujimaru-san.

両儀式
極力出てこないつもりだったけど、 相手が相手だから出てきちゃった。

Ryougi Shiki
I intended not to come out as much as possible, but since the opponent is what it is, I ended up coming out.

両儀式
少しの間だけど、私でよければ使ってあげて。

Ryougi Shiki
It's only for a short while, but if you don't mind, use me.

ill just rephrase the stuff of interest here.
Void says:
1. If a Monster of Gaia (primate murder) was there, there would be nothing she could do.
2. She says she needs to “fight as if her life depended on it” in order to beat a degraded beast of alaya (Shadow Servant Edmond Dantes, btw)
3.she felt as if the opponent was so strong, she had no choice but to take control.

In the KNK manga, we get additional context proving that a personality switch to Void happened when she used self suggestion. First, I’ll send the scans from the original novel and additional side material.
It was immediately decided that Ryougi Shiki's style was to fight with Mystic Eyes and a knife. However, the truth is this: This woman is originally a murderer who wields a katana. Compared to her current self, her usual self pales in comparison. "...I was deceived. The fight to the death with Asagami Fujino was not serious, was it?" To the magus's words, Ryougi Shiki shook her head in denial. Her cold eyes conveyed that she is always serious, no matter what weapon she uses. Receiving her gaze, the magus realized. Now—what did this woman answer? What kind of vessel is here? When did this opponent stop being Shiki? "I see...so we finally meet...!" Holding his left arm to stop the bleeding from the wound on his shoulder, the magus roars. The woman in the white kimono—Ryougi-Shiki—showed an unmistakably feminine smile. Just like that, she launched an attack on the magus.
Click to expand...
A more literal translation of the sentence:

ここにいる器はなんだ？
この相手は───いつからシキでなくなった？
The vessel currently here, what is it?
This opponent is... since when did she become not Shiki?(シキでなく).
Click to expand...
It’s stated many times during the epilogue that Void, unlike the other 2 personalities, technically is not Shiki at all.

“Shiki” is also regarded as a vessel/container (器),regarding voids nature as the “vessel” or “empty container/box”
Void also exhibits feminine behavior, while Ryougi is noted to act masculine after the death of SHIKI. This is one of Nasu's "tells" ofThis fact is further proven in the manga, as she gets additional lines, and the way she speaks is feminine, and not like her normal masculine speech at all, which is an integral part of Ryougis character. Araya even says “So we finally meet”,which wouldn’t make sense if this was the same personality as before.



this is one chapter of the fight, though you can seeher behavior and mannerisms rapidly switch.
ill try to find the other chapters, but you can probably get the general idea


One of Voids skills (Skills are given based on what fits the characters actions and lore, and even has short lore info at times based on the character), literally references this scene here:
Cloud Shine: B
After switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

This means that Void did indeed show up here.

See this as well:
そのあたりのこだわりがなく、問答無用で剣士としてのスペックを出すようなフラットな人格になれば、まあ、200年近く生きてる武闘派の怪僧をびびらせるぐらいには。
If she didn't have such specific preferences and had a flat personality that showcased her specs as a swordsman without issues, well, she could intimidate the martial monk who has lived for nearly 200 years.

Dictionary definition for a “flat personality”:
lacking interest or emotion; dull and lifeless.

Yea, this fits Void to a tee, as she is noted to be extremely dull and lifeless in the epilogue.
How is this relevant you may ask? Well, besides amping her physicals heavily, the only new “ability” that she obtained was precognition. (Void’s nigh-omniscience made combat applicable, basically.) none of that supposed reality warping here. She also gets injured by arayas attacks, which are hyped to “shatter concrete” and “fell trees”
What does this mean? 2 things.
Void’s supposed “reality warping” is either not combat applicable/not at the scale where it would be super relevant for combat, or she doesn’t have such abilities at all.

Void's supposed "capabilities" in combat at least were already explored in the Araya fight by virtue of her appearing there and........ she just has higher physical stats with a side of omniscience based precog. Definitely not 1-A scale reality warping, for sure.
 
Wankbreaker said:
Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.

In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).

This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.



ill paste an excerpt I had with a certain user offsite:

”as a follow up to this, kamoshirenai is actually the lowest probability marker for these types of terms in japanese. (from highest to lowest uncertainty): かもしれない (kamoshirenai) / かもしれません (kamoshiremasen) / かも (kamo) (keep in mind that it has the particle for “not to know, but thats not exactly 100% true?) たぶん (tabun) (maybe,probably) おそらく (osoraku) (most likely,probably) きっと (kitto) (surely,definitely)”





Saber Shiki FGO Profile.

“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”

It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.



Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.



—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ

She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.

彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。



誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。


Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.

Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies 30% arcs
power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.

From Asagami Fujino's profile:
“単純な数値比べなら、物語中最高の性能。”"Simply in terms of a numerical comparison , her capabilities are the highest in the story.”
this puts her capabilities higher than any character who has appeared in KNK,which includes void shiki.

Fujino is literally just an average girl physically with a ranged dura neg ability.

also:

本物のガイアの怪物が相手なら仕方がないけれど、 相手はアラヤの怪物の劣化品。

If the opponent were a genuine Monster of Gaia, nothing could be done, but the opponent is merely an inferior imitation of a Monster of Alaya.

両儀式
相手が死に狂った末の幽霊なら、 こっちも死にもの狂いで戦えばいいだけの話ですもの。

Ryougi Shiki
If the opponent is a ghost maddened by death, then I just need to fight as if my life depends on it.

マシュ
式さん？　え、え！？

Mash
Shiki-san? Eh, eh!?

両儀式
はじめまして、マシュさん。 こんばんは、藤丸さん。

Ryougi Shiki
Nice to meet you, Mash-san. Good evening, Fujimaru-san.

両儀式
極力出てこないつもりだったけど、 相手が相手だから出てきちゃった。

Ryougi Shiki
I intended not to come out as much as possible, but since the opponent is what it is, I ended up coming out.

両儀式
少しの間だけど、私でよければ使ってあげて。

Ryougi Shiki
It's only for a short while, but if you don't mind, use me.

ill just rephrase the stuff of interest here.
Void says:
1. If a Monster of Gaia (primate murder) was there, there would be nothing she could do.
2. She says she needs to “fight as if her life depended on it” in order to beat a degraded beast of alaya (Shadow Servant Edmond Dantes, btw)
3.she felt as if the opponent was so strong, she had no choice but to take control.

In the KNK manga, we get additional context proving that a personality switch to Void happened when she used self suggestion. First, I’ll send the scans from the original novel and additional side material.

A more literal translation of the sentence:


It’s stated many times during the epilogue that Void, unlike the other 2 personalities, technically is not Shiki at all.

“Shiki” is also regarded as a vessel/container (器),regarding voids nature as the “vessel” or “empty container/box”
Void also exhibits feminine behavior, while Ryougi is noted to act masculine after the death of SHIKI. This is one of Nasu's "tells" ofThis fact is further proven in the manga, as she gets additional lines, and the way she speaks is feminine, and not like her normal masculine speech at all, which is an integral part of Ryougis character. Araya even says “So we finally meet”,which wouldn’t make sense if this was the same personality as before.



this is one chapter of the fight, though you can seeher behavior and mannerisms rapidly switch.
ill try to find the other chapters, but you can probably get the general idea


One of Voids skills (Skills are given based on what fits the characters actions and lore, and even has short lore info at times based on the character), literally references this scene here:
Cloud Shine: B
After switching one's attitude to that of a swordsman, the user performs ultra-high speed movements and slashes. Five intervals... nine meters of space are instantly covered, as if a flash of light.

This means that Void did indeed show up here.

See this as well:
そのあたりのこだわりがなく、問答無用で剣士としてのスペックを出すようなフラットな人格になれば、まあ、200年近く生きてる武闘派の怪僧をびびらせるぐらいには。
If she didn't have such specific preferences and had a flat personality that showcased her specs as a swordsman without issues, well, she could intimidate the martial monk who has lived for nearly 200 years.

Dictionary definition for a “flat personality”:
lacking interest or emotion; dull and lifeless.

Yea, this fits Void to a tee, as she is noted to be extremely dull and lifeless in the epilogue.
How is this relevant you may ask? Well, besides amping her physicals heavily, the only new “ability” that she obtained was precognition. (Void’s nigh-omniscience made combat applicable, basically.) none of that supposed reality warping here. She also gets injured by arayas attacks, which are hyped to “shatter concrete” and “fell trees”
What does this mean? 2 things.
Void’s supposed “reality warping” is either not combat applicable/not at the scale where it would be super relevant for combat, or she doesn’t have such abilities at all.

Void's supposed "capabilities" in combat at least were already explored in the Araya fight by virtue of her appearing there and........ she just has higher physical stats with a side of omniscience based precog. Definitely not 1-A scale reality warping, for sure.
Click to expand...

Why didn't I ask if it was 1-A? You claimed that original dante would be enough
 
Hypercyber37 said:
Type moon says that she is one of the strongest. Why especially tier 6 when there are 6-8D Servants?
Click to expand...
with a list excluding servants, and a lot of other characters.

TM also says Fujino has the highest capabilities in her own work, that she can only fight defensively against servants, etc.

She even has to fight extreme difficulity with shadow servant edmond dantes.
 
Wankbreaker said:
with a list excluding servants, and a lot of other characters.

TM also says Fujino has the highest capabilities in her own work, that she can only fight defensively against servants, etc.

She even has to fight extreme difficulity with shadow servant edmond dantes.
Click to expand...
I thought Dantes fight was the "assassin" Shiki?
 
DaReaperMan said:
SMT is baseline to 7 layers into 1-A.

And Dante isn't a baseline MFer, so he can literally breathe wrong and Shiki and all of nasuverse gets deleted so bad that Nasu doesn't get the funeral invitation until after it's over.

Hell ******* Tuska solos Nasuverse!
Click to expand...
one more vote until shiki gets wiped from 1-A, just wait
 
DaReaperMan said:
While you're at it, can you downgrade servants and shit down to like, tier 7?
Click to expand...
strange fake and FGO make that impossible, but what CAN be done is make the servant profiles less composite, since FGO servants explicitly get stronger, iirc
DaReaperMan said:
And find a way to kill their 4-D Invulnerability so I can use them in matches?(this is priority)
Click to expand...
what is the reasoning for this (if any)? if theres no scans to back this up, I dont think you even need a CRT to get rid of it, as it isnt sourced.
 
Wankbreaker said:
strange fake and FGO make that impossible, but what CAN be done is make the servant profiles less composite, since FGO servants explicitly get stronger, iirc
Click to expand...
Fair
Wankbreaker said:
what is the reasoning for this (if any)? if theres no scans to back this up, I dont think you even need a CRT to get rid of it, as it isnt sourced.
Click to expand...
There was a whole ass CRT on the matter, I think in 2022-2023
 
Wankbreaker said:
... why was this accepted? I could go onto details on how this is wrong ,but fallacies did so for me here:
Click to expand...
“
Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.”


Apparently it came from this Q&A by Nasu so yeah
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
“
Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image.”


Apparently it came from this Q&A by Nasu so yeah
Click to expand...
Do you have the raw text? This is kinda contradicted by a non reinforced Kuzuki being able to stagger Archer.
also pretty sure nasu is talking about when they revert to spiritual form, as thats when they are invulnerable to regular attacks
 
Wankbreaker said:
Do you have the raw text? This is kinda contradicted by a non reinforced Kuzuki being able to stagger Archer.
also pretty sure nasu is talking about when they revert to spiritual form, as thats when they are invulnerable to regular attacks
Click to expand...
Fate/Apocrypha Volumen 2
Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the
first time Ruler had witness of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed
apart with a sword.
Click to expand...

There is more than just the Q&A here tbf
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Fate/Apocrypha Volumen 2


There is more than just the Q&A here tbf
Click to expand...
Spiritual Body and Material Body
“Spiritual Body” is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, “Material Body” means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.
 
Wankbreaker said:
Spiritual Body and Material Body
“Spiritual Body” is a word that describes an existence with spiritual properties. In other words, a shape is constructed without relying on components with physical properties. On the other hand, “Material Body” means something that is identical in structure as our flesh bodies. A Material Body, just like us, cannot walk through walls, and will hurt and become wounded when beaten with an iron baton. However, a Spirit Body is capable of completely disregarding such physical interference. Attacking a Spiritual Body with a baton or sword (unless they are magical items) will only hit empty space.
When Servants materialise, they acquire Material Bodies in this world. They can also switch to Spiritual Bodies through their will. Spiritual Bodies have the advantages such as low mana consumption, and difficult to be detected by enemies. One of the properties of a Spiritual Body is that it is unaffected by physical interference, but conversely it is difficult for a Spiritual Body to affect a Material Body. As a result, Servants Materialise when engaging in combat.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw that already. That doesn’t explain the Apoc statement there though
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Yeah, I saw that already. That doesn’t explain the Apoc statement there though
Click to expand...
attacks from normal humans are usually weak as hell to begin with, and cant really harm a servant by consequence. Seen by Kuzuki only being able to stagger Archer without reinforcement.

theres a lot more statements implying that physical attacks will work on a servants material body,though
 
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