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Servants Invulnerability downgrade

the way it works in nasu is that things build up mystery over time not simply because there old. Your basically saying that it has magical energy when it may not.
 
Why shouldn't we treat the rule of 'nullifying' attacks without Prana/Mystery with Berserker's God Hand rule of 'nullifying' attacks below A Rank?
bAiRcvX.png


The statement about normal weapons lacking in magic/mystery not being able to harm them is general; it doesn't mentioned selective intangability and I don't think selective intangability was ever mentioned. strange/Fake mentions that Servants avoid being in Spirtual Form if there are hostile Magi since they would be vulnerable to anti-spirit attacks, and avoid being in Spirtual Form around Servants since rematerializing is too slow. So Spirit Form can't be compared to Logia.

A Servant in spirit form was incapable of taking any offensive or defensive measures. If a Master or other mage possessed the means of attacking a spirit body, they ran the risk of being one-sidedly annihilated. Consequently, remaining in spirit form around hostile Servants and Masters was not a winning strategy. The moment required to rematerialize could also create a fatal opening in a battle of instants.

Best to assume it’s already materialized and is hiding somewhere, the chief concluded, and turned a wary eye to his surroundings. There were countless places to hide in the atrium lobby, including the exposed sections of second and third floor hallway.
 
LehenDuo said:
It also is a bad translation of the original text.
Click to expand...
At most you can argue that the text is ambigious, but I'd say that invulnerability is the most reasonable interpretation which is what influenced Mirror Moon's translation. Even then, fallacies who did the retranslation of the passages acknowledged that the Fate/Apocrypha passage is explicit about Servants having invulnrability against attacks wihout Prana.
 
It's not ambiguous in the way you are implying, though.

The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.
 
Ballsdeep69 said:
question, Why do we treat old age giving mystery as falling under verse equalization?
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Exactly
That's a verse mechanic nasuverse has
And no other verse shares an even similar mechanic
And VBW doesn't even allow for characters to get powers from other verses just because of verse equal
 
Zencha9 said:
Exactly
That's a verse mechanic nasuverse has
And no other verse shares an even similar mechanic
And VBW doesn't even allow for characters to get powers from other verses just because of verse equal
Click to expand...
Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability, this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.
 
LordGinSama said:
Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability, this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.
Click to expand...
That does not answer my first question about why should it be equalized in the first palce since the mechanic is so different

That is still left to be discussed if it's potency or a weaknesses
 
LordGinSama said:
Because of a caveat, it's a weakness not a strength. Verse Equalization doesn't automatically Remove any weaknesses. Fate has a distinctive weakness in the form of Mystery being able to bypass Servant Invulnerability
Click to expand...
It's not a weakness though. It's the same as jiren being stronger then Hit's time-skip, not a weakness of the ability but the mystery being stronger then the Invulnerability.
 
LordGinSama said:
this isn't anything like how Haki from One Piece is needed to interact with Logia's or intang Negation. There's a difference between the two.
Click to expand...
To use that as a comparison, It's like treating it as if verse equalization gives the opponent Haki if they have high willpower.
 
LehenDuo said:
It's not ambiguous in the way you are implying, though.

The phrase says servants (without saying specific form) can't be harmed in ''normal ways'', then say that harming them through physical means is the ''right'' of Servants only. The translation adds the ''physical'' in the first phrase from nowhere. It never specificies it. It just says ''in normal ways''.
Click to expand...

Not really, here is the Mirror Moon's translation with fallacies' translation (with the Japanese comparision removed for ease of reading).

Mirror Moon:​

Not just Saber, all Servants are Heroic Spirits you know? There's the fact that they're spirit bodies too, but they can't be hurt by normal means. A Servant itself is a mystery after all.

The only ones that can hurt a Servant with physical means is another Heroic Spirit, that is, a Servant. On the other hand, if it's between Servants, it's possible to hurt Saber with a mere paper knife."

fallacies​

Unrestricted to Saber alone, Servants are all Heroic Spirits, you know?
There's also the matter of their being spiritual corpora, of course, but if it's by straightforward means ("aboveboard / proper" "means / measures"), they won't take a single injury.
Servants are themselves inherently Mysteries, after all.
Rendering injury to a Servant by physical means ("of or relating to physics / the physical principles") is strictly the prerogative of Servants who are likewise Heroic Spirits.
Conversely, if the attacker is another Servant, it would be possible for them to render injury to Saber with even a generic paper knife.

I am partial to verse equalization applying if the weapon in question was highly revered by humans in addition to being ancient. Mystery (largely based on the collective unconsciousness of humanity) is much more passive than Haki.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Not really, here is the Mirror Moon's translation with fallacies' translation (with the Japanese comparision removed for ease of reading)
Click to expand...
Correction - people, when interpreting the phrase, add a ''physical''

I am partial to verse equalization applying if the weapon in question was highly revered by humans in addition to being ancient. Mystery (largely based on the collective unconsciousness of humanity) is much more passive than Haki.
Click to expand...
There's the story about modern weapons, usable by anyway, not being possibilities as NPs, isn't there?
Like Billy's NP isn't his gun, but HIS skills using the gun, differently from Cu's Bolg, which is the Bolg itself + Cu
 
By the by Fuuma supports that servants can't be harmed by ordinary attacks with his own word. Albeit that is in English Shimousa.
 
Ballsdeep69 said:
OP is saying that mystery doesn't make you invulnerable while everyone is saying that's wrong. and an argument on whether or not the age of something bypassing the invul should be verse equalized.
Click to expand...
No, I said that the scan we gave for invulnerability dosn't give invulnerability.
 
In context the image of Rin still work because she is talking of Saber who can't go to spirit form, but could just also be added or replaced with the talk of Nasu and/or the part of Jeanne, or any other of the things said in the thread.

Fate/stay night Premium FanBook, p.047 - Q: How strong are Servants?
But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful.
Click to expand...
Fate/Apocrypha Volumen 2
Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler's armor. An attack without prana
accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting
into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.

It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the
first time Ruler had witness of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed
apart with a sword.
Click to expand...
 
I 100% disagree with using Nasu's interview as a legitimate form of citation. This is literally just a repeat of "Only Stands can harm Stands." Which we don't even take seriously due to it's NLF nature, instead this was just replaced with them being intangible and anyone who has NPI can indeed interact with Stands.


Fine with the ability but I adamantly disagree with the wording used.
 
Idk how it's similar and nlf like the stands thing

This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).

The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation
 
Paul_Frank said:
Idk how it's similar and nlf like the stands thing

This has very defined limits, and is stated and shown more than once in the series (those limits being, it only works on things without magical energy/mystery).

The interview statement just reiterates these facts, it doesn't make the ability have a broader scope or anything that could make it a repeat of the stand thing, or an illegitimate form of citation
Click to expand...
Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.
 
LordGinSama said:
Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.
Click to expand...
I mean, it says regular/conventional (in the Japanese text) weapons, it's pretty clear that there are limits, and especially using the context of the other statements from before (fsn) and after (apoc fgo, etc) the interview

Veloxt1r0kore said:
@LordGinSama Then what are you gonna provose here? We know that we can't use Rin statement again because that one was vague af
Click to expand...
You could just like, use multiple things at once as support

As in, the interview, and the Rin thing, and the Jeanne thing, there's no reason to pick and choose a single one when you can link multiple things in one explanation to give evidence
 
The_Smashor said:
IIRC we've never actually seen Servants attacked with non-magical things. Ever.
Click to expand...
Actually, there are examples. Kuzuki vs Archer after Caster is dead is the first one to come to mind, in UBW anime IIRC.
And expanding the Servant requirement a bit, we have seen other elementals attacked, though they would (Beowulf)

LordGinSama said:
Like I said its the wording I disagree with, Nasu's interview doesn't state said weakness just that nothing can hurt Servant's or that only Servant's can harm Servant's.
Click to expand...
No, that isn't at all accurate as far as describing what the answer is. He is answering ''How strong are Servants?'', his answer uses modern weapons to try and illustrate their power level. He doesn't speak about a number of things about Servants, such as the ridiculous amount of energy they use, the need of anchors, etc etc, and those exist in the work anyway. The lack of mention in one specific answer, that isn't even about that specifically, doesn't make it false...

And it's not ''only servants can harm servants'' in it's entirety. It's ''harming Servants through purely physical means/interference''/something like that - the example being a paper knife, wasn't it?-, is something only Servants may do. Something about Spiritual Rank yada yada - one of those things never really explored in the verse. She them says that even though you can harm them by other means, it's really ******* stupid 99% of time. It's even said that spells and such can harm servants while they are in their spiritual form.
 
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