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Void Shiki Possible Speed Upgrade

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FallenMaou2234

FallenMaou2234

674
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Anyways yeah so this'll be a fairly straightforward one and ya'll know what this is about. Also sorry if this has been discussed before and sorry if there's another upgrade thread going on that I don't know about which will cover this. I'm kinda new round these here parts.

So yeah Shiki has Power Mimicry listed under her Abilities and it states:

"As the Root, every supernatural powers come from her including Magecraft and ESP. Also analysed and archived everything in existence, even Heroic Spirits; the Moon Cell, which possess the same power on a lower scale, allowed BB to use the archived abilities in it"

So naturally because she possesses every single ability in the series, doesn't that mean she should get an Immeasurable Speed rating via Noble Phantasms like Edmond Dantes' noble Phantasm:

"Immeasurable with Enfer Château d'If (Allows him to escape and move outside of even abstract prisons such as time and space)."

And Abigails portals:

Immeasurable with portals (Can access any point in time and space and walk along the boundary between reality and fiction)

So with that said, I think we should add a new Speed rating to her Void Shiki key and Saber profile that goes as follows:

"Immeasurable Via Power Mimicry(As she is the root and the origin of everything in existence within the Nasuverse, should be capable of using the Noble phantasm of Edmond Dantes and the abilities of Abigail Williams)"

A "Possibly" can be inserted for conservative reasons if that's what's needed. So what do you guys think this seem legit??
 
Last edited:
I am not knowledgeable on the verse but I want to ask, is Shiki connected to the Root or is she the Root
 
Lormac_CC said:
I am not knowledgeable on the verse but I want to ask, is Shiki connected to the Root or is she the Root
Click to expand...
Shes kinda both actually

"It reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as
well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of
are allowed me." Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - Page 227
 
Then I disagree agree, she is more like a physical manifestation of the Root, I don't really see why she should have Immeasurable for being a physical manifestation
 
Lormac_CC said:
Then I disagree agree, she is more like a physical manifestation of the Root, I don't really see why she should have Immeasurable for being a physical manifestation
Click to expand...

She isn't getting Immeasurable via being a physical manifestation of the Root if that was the case I would be arguing Irrelevant what with the root being above Dimensional theory and what not heheheheh. She's getting Immeasurable via her ability to use all the abilities in the Nasuverse, which includes Noble Phantasms like Dantes' that grant Immeasurable Speed.
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
She's getting Immeasurable via her ability to use all the abilities in the Nasuverse, which includes Noble Phantasms like Dantes' that grant Immeasurable Speed.
Click to expand...
If there is an ability in the verse that makes a character go from MHS to Immeasurable speed, then I agree
 
Lormac_CC said:
If there is an ability in the verse that makes a character go from MHS to Immeasurable speed, then I agree
Click to expand...
Massively Hypersonic (Fought and kept up with several Servants throughout the Prison Tower event including Jeanne and Phantom, who both have A-rank agility. When he was alive, he kept up with Tarantella who utilized lightning in his attacks in their fight), Immeasurable with Enfer Château d'If (Allows him to escape and move outside of even abstract prisons such as time and space).

This should be good then right??
 
She is currently unknown, but if it is established that she has higher perspective of the past/present/future, we can argue immeasurable speed I think.

She is able to casually travel to the past, based on BL translation:
"...the Spiral of Origin. The place where all Causes mingle into a whirlpool. It is a place where everything and nothing exists. That, is my true self. Although I am connected to the Spiral of Origin, I am merely part of it. In other words, we are one and the same, aren't we?
Thus, I am omnipotent. ....Yes, rewriting the laws that govern the microcosm of invisible particles, returning to the very beginning to reshape the System Tree of life on Earth... I am capable of all these. Even creating a new Order for this World is simple. It would not be recreating this World, but destroying it with a new World."

The only complete translation of KnK clearly suggests this, but it is considered a bad translation that contains lore inaccuracies and misinterpretation, removes entire sentences to make it 'flow better', and makes up entire sentences of purple prose to make it 'flow better'. Here is a translation with comparison to the anime movie subtitles:

cokesakto translation:
“What a perilously unwise game they play, these dynasties,” the girl continues. “I should have died before I was ever free of the womb, but instead, they gave me a sense of self. You see, any animal comes into the world with a body and sapience worthy of each other, but I, born of the origin of nothingness, must needs die. I should have never existed for long. Tōko told you of this, did she not? Of reality’s uncanny ability to fight what is irrational, and unnatural, solely through consensus. Produced from such an unnatural origin as nothingness, I would have petered out unceremoniously before Shiki ever achieved an iota of consciousness. But the Ryōgi dynasty had spells that bid me awake, and so I did, and the origin awoke in Shiki as well. Through it, I could see the material reality. I found it too boring, however, and passed that responsibility to Shiki. Can you not see? How everything in this reality is so predictable, and how the rules that bind it are so weak and mutable?

[...]

“An understandable observation. Shiki is very much a creature of destruction. I suppose you still cannot see me as anything else but her, in the end. My origin is emptiness, and because of this, Shiki can see the death of everything. When Shiki slept for two years, her senses shattered and dead, she gazed into the emptiness inside her for so long that she came to know the welcoming embrace of death. Shiki floated on the vast abyss of the spiral of origin, alone inside the void, where she awoke. And no matter how much she denied it, her soul called out to that base drive, that voice inside her that told her that she could kill. Her power stemmed from that. Much like Fujino Asagami, her Arcane Eyes made her play an entirely different game than common men. Her Eyes expressed their connection to the spiral of origin through death, calling forth the destined entropy of all things and manifesting it. But my connection to it is far more profound. And it allows me to see everything so…differently.
The way she says this last word was a mixture of delight and sadness, and the boy got the distinct sense that even though she explains, she knows her words would never truly reach anyone. “The spiral of origin is the primordial beginning of all things in this pattern of reality. All things pass through the great wheel, their natures and their histories—past, present, and future—are connected to it. It is thus a vast and empty place. It reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of are allowed me. I can change the very structure of elementary particles. I can transmute evolution itself, changing everything into something wholly different. All creation dances to the tune of magic and the melody of the arcane Art. I can bend the rules of this lie of a reality, this prison that keeps so many minds in sleep. I can break it as easily as a twig. I can remake this world. I can unmake it. I can make a new one whole cloth.

[...]

Her voice becomes a whisper in the infinite night, her eyes affixed to it with such an intensity, it feels as if she would never have the chance to see its like again. Perhaps she never will. “But what can I do?” she asks herself. “I am but a body, bound to her dream. Hers is the material, and mine the soul, sharing a body connected to the great Akasha. I know everything that has passed and will pass, and it is a bitter, meaningless tedium, enough to close your eyes to the entire affair. And so it will be as before. I shall sleep, undreaming, unthinking, in eternity. I pray only that when entropy claims this body, that the dream live on, and I with it.” Snow falls tranquilly upon her words with the weight of a burial.

Aniplex subtitles:
Ridiculous, isn't it? I should have just perished as a premature a baby, yet I had the misfortune of acquiring my "self". A newborn animal has the body of a baby, and a proportionate, budding intelligence. But those like me who were born with nothing... Our only fate is to die soon after, you see. If I were to paraphrase that mage I mentioned I would say that my origin is "nothingness." In other words, I was empty from the beginning. Didn't Toko ever tell you this? She said that humans unconsciousness will never tolerate a stain that threatens to obliterate their society. This body of mine is one of those stains. Normally, I never would have been born, and never would have awoken. Life-forms such as I, who were generated directly from emptiness, are doomed to perish inside our mothers' placentas. Because it would be pointless for us to be born. Since emptiness is nothingness, then our intelligence is nothingness as well. I was destined to live my life without ever perceiving the outside world. But apparently, the Ryogi family possessed the skills to take advantage of that. And they awakened me. Rather than instill me with a ready-made personality, they actually awakened emptiness - my origin. And when they exposed the outside world to me against my will, I found it to be too much of a hassle, and I decided to make Shiki handle everything after that. Can you blame me? Everything that happens in the outside world is so predictable to me. It was just too boring.

[...]

You're right. Because Shiki is only capable of destruction. I guess I'm Shiki in your eyes, after all. My origin is emptiness, so Shiki, who possesses the body of emptiness, can see death. For two years... Shiki lay comatose, unable to see the outside world, and was forced to gaze endlessly at the void that was Shiki Ryogi. She learned what death felt like. You see, all that time, Shiki was floating in a place called the Spiral of Origin. All by herself... having taken on Shiki's form...
The Spiral of Origin... Is that a place where there's nothing? Like the sea at night, in total darkness?
That's a good metaphor, Kokuto. Yes. The sea at night... that brings back memories. If it were the sea just before daybreak, I'd find it a bit heartwarming. Even if it were a sea devoid of all shapes, of all people.
So that's the nature of your soul, isn't it? Nothingness was your shape. That's why Shiki was able to kill everything without exception. No matter how much the personality called Shiki denied it, that was the archetype of the soul called Shiki Ryogi. Because it was a void, its tendency was to hope for the death of all things...
That's right, that was Shiki's nature. Just like Fujino Asagmi, she was a special channel able to see things differently than other people. Special eyes able to glimpse the Spiral of Origin - a microcosm of the world. But I myself can delve even further. Actually, I myself might be the Spiral. A place where all causes swirl, where everything is provided, and thus, where there's nothing. That's my true identity. We're merely connected, but I'm a part of it. Doesn't that make us one and the same existence? That's why I am capable of anything. Yes, I can restructure the laws of substances so minute they're imperceptible, or I can even unravel the origin of this planet and change evolution. I wouldn't be remaking the existing world. Rather, I'd be crushing the old world in my hand with a new world.

[...]

But I can't help it, you know. Since I'm nothing but a physical body. Even if it's pointless, I have to go along with her dream. Shiki will look outside, while I'll continue staring at the inside, just as we've always done. Shiki Ryogi's body is connected to the Origin. As I can only see the inside, I already know of everything that's occurred. And that was so painful, so boring, so pointless to me, that I just closed my eyes. And since that's all I have to look forward to, nothing's changed at all from before. I should just go on sleeping forever. Never dreaming, thinking of nothing, forever. When the day comes that this body disintegrates into nothingness, I hope that I don't realize that the dream has ended.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
She is currently unknown, but if it is established that she has higher perspective of the past/present/future, we can argue immeasurable speed I think.

She is able to casually travel to the past, based on BL translation:
"...the Spiral of Origin. The place where all Causes mingle into a whirlpool. It is a place where everything and nothing exists. That, is my true self. Although I am connected to the Spiral of Origin, I am merely part of it. In other words, we are one and the same, aren't we?
Thus, I am omnipotent. ....Yes, rewriting the laws that govern the microcosm of invisible particles, returning to the very beginning to reshape the System Tree of life on Earth... I am capable of all these. Even creating a new Order for this World is simple. It would not be recreating this World, but destroying it with a new World."

The only complete translation of KnK clearly suggests this, but it is considered a bad translation that contains lore inaccuracies and misinterpretation, removes entire sentences to make it 'flow better', and makes up entire sentences of purple prose to make it 'flow better'. Here is a translation with comparison to the anime movie subtitles:

cokesakto translation:
“What a perilously unwise game they play, these dynasties,” the girl continues. “I should have died before I was ever free of the womb, but instead, they gave me a sense of self. You see, any animal comes into the world with a body and sapience worthy of each other, but I, born of the origin of nothingness, must needs die. I should have never existed for long. Tōko told you of this, did she not? Of reality’s uncanny ability to fight what is irrational, and unnatural, solely through consensus. Produced from such an unnatural origin as nothingness, I would have petered out unceremoniously before Shiki ever achieved an iota of consciousness. But the Ryōgi dynasty had spells that bid me awake, and so I did, and the origin awoke in Shiki as well. Through it, I could see the material reality. I found it too boring, however, and passed that responsibility to Shiki. Can you not see? How everything in this reality is so predictable, and how the rules that bind it are so weak and mutable?

[...]

“An understandable observation. Shiki is very much a creature of destruction. I suppose you still cannot see me as anything else but her, in the end. My origin is emptiness, and because of this, Shiki can see the death of everything. When Shiki slept for two years, her senses shattered and dead, she gazed into the emptiness inside her for so long that she came to know the welcoming embrace of death. Shiki floated on the vast abyss of the spiral of origin, alone inside the void, where she awoke. And no matter how much she denied it, her soul called out to that base drive, that voice inside her that told her that she could kill. Her power stemmed from that. Much like Fujino Asagami, her Arcane Eyes made her play an entirely different game than common men. Her Eyes expressed their connection to the spiral of origin through death, calling forth the destined entropy of all things and manifesting it. But my connection to it is far more profound. And it allows me to see everything so…differently.
The way she says this last word was a mixture of delight and sadness, and the boy got the distinct sense that even though she explains, she knows her words would never truly reach anyone. “The spiral of origin is the primordial beginning of all things in this pattern of reality. All things pass through the great wheel, their natures and their histories—past, present, and future—are connected to it. It is thus a vast and empty place. It reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of are allowed me. I can change the very structure of elementary particles. I can transmute evolution itself, changing everything into something wholly different. All creation dances to the tune of magic and the melody of the arcane Art. I can bend the rules of this lie of a reality, this prison that keeps so many minds in sleep. I can break it as easily as a twig. I can remake this world. I can unmake it. I can make a new one whole cloth.

[...]

Her voice becomes a whisper in the infinite night, her eyes affixed to it with such an intensity, it feels as if she would never have the chance to see its like again. Perhaps she never will. “But what can I do?” she asks herself. “I am but a body, bound to her dream. Hers is the material, and mine the soul, sharing a body connected to the great Akasha. I know everything that has passed and will pass, and it is a bitter, meaningless tedium, enough to close your eyes to the entire affair. And so it will be as before. I shall sleep, undreaming, unthinking, in eternity. I pray only that when entropy claims this body, that the dream live on, and I with it.” Snow falls tranquilly upon her words with the weight of a burial.

Aniplex subtitles:
Ridiculous, isn't it? I should have just perished as a premature a baby, yet I had the misfortune of acquiring my "self". A newborn animal has the body of a baby, and a proportionate, budding intelligence. But those like me who were born with nothing... Our only fate is to die soon after, you see. If I were to paraphrase that mage I mentioned I would say that my origin is "nothingness." In other words, I was empty from the beginning. Didn't Toko ever tell you this? She said that humans unconsciousness will never tolerate a stain that threatens to obliterate their society. This body of mine is one of those stains. Normally, I never would have been born, and never would have awoken. Life-forms such as I, who were generated directly from emptiness, are doomed to perish inside our mothers' placentas. Because it would be pointless for us to be born. Since emptiness is nothingness, then our intelligence is nothingness as well. I was destined to live my life without ever perceiving the outside world. But apparently, the Ryogi family possessed the skills to take advantage of that. And they awakened me. Rather than instill me with a ready-made personality, they actually awakened emptiness - my origin. And when they exposed the outside world to me against my will, I found it to be too much of a hassle, and I decided to make Shiki handle everything after that. Can you blame me? Everything that happens in the outside world is so predictable to me. It was just too boring.

[...]

You're right. Because Shiki is only capable of destruction. I guess I'm Shiki in your eyes, after all. My origin is emptiness, so Shiki, who possesses the body of emptiness, can see death. For two years... Shiki lay comatose, unable to see the outside world, and was forced to gaze endlessly at the void that was Shiki Ryogi. She learned what death felt like. You see, all that time, Shiki was floating in a place called the Spiral of Origin. All by herself... having taken on Shiki's form...
The Spiral of Origin... Is that a place where there's nothing? Like the sea at night, in total darkness?
That's a good metaphor, Kokuto. Yes. The sea at night... that brings back memories. If it were the sea just before daybreak, I'd find it a bit heartwarming. Even if it were a sea devoid of all shapes, of all people.
So that's the nature of your soul, isn't it? Nothingness was your shape. That's why Shiki was able to kill everything without exception. No matter how much the personality called Shiki denied it, that was the archetype of the soul called Shiki Ryogi. Because it was a void, its tendency was to hope for the death of all things...
That's right, that was Shiki's nature. Just like Fujino Asagmi, she was a special channel able to see things differently than other people. Special eyes able to glimpse the Spiral of Origin - a microcosm of the world. But I myself can delve even further. Actually, I myself might be the Spiral. A place where all causes swirl, where everything is provided, and thus, where there's nothing. That's my true identity. We're merely connected, but I'm a part of it. Doesn't that make us one and the same existence? That's why I am capable of anything. Yes, I can restructure the laws of substances so minute they're imperceptible, or I can even unravel the origin of this planet and change evolution. I wouldn't be remaking the existing world. Rather, I'd be crushing the old world in my hand with a new world.

[...]

But I can't help it, you know. Since I'm nothing but a physical body. Even if it's pointless, I have to go along with her dream. Shiki will look outside, while I'll continue staring at the inside, just as we've always done. Shiki Ryogi's body is connected to the Origin. As I can only see the inside, I already know of everything that's occurred. And that was so painful, so boring, so pointless to me, that I just closed my eyes. And since that's all I have to look forward to, nothing's changed at all from before. I should just go on sleeping forever. Never dreaming, thinking of nothing, forever. When the day comes that this body disintegrates into nothingness, I hope that I don't realize that the dream has ended.
Click to expand...
Well these scans definitely do help but there are a couple Immeasurable characters with the rating even without a Higher Dimensional perspective. However if this is the case I don't think she has it listed in her profile in which case she needs a whole separate revision to deal with that.
 
In the fgo event she too able to move in the dimmension without boundary. The thing that nobody should be able to reach
 
Lormac_CC said:
This wouldn't really qualify for speed
Click to expand...
Well that depends cause I don't have the scan but in the prelude to the Garden Of Sinners event Shiki states that the player has a name and as a result should not be there and as we know The Root

"While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」"

So depending on how you interpret the connection between these two pieces of information you could even say that the place that the player reached was the spiral of origin and because that is a place that stands at the summit and controls all Dimensional theory being independent of its definitions you could say being able to move in that Space gives you Irrelevant speed
 
Kuro4416 said:
Isn’t, moving beyond space and time not an immeasurable speed or does he have other supportive performance?
Click to expand...
if you want to discard it then make a crt because it's already accepted on his profile. So till the time it's on his profile then she will scale.

And i'm pretty sure that moving beyond time it's already accepted as immeasurable
 
Regidian said:
if you want to discard it then make a crt because it's already accepted on his profile. So till the time it's on his profile then she will scale.

And i'm pretty sure that moving beyond time it's already accepted as immeasurable
Click to expand...
Iirc, you have to move faster than the time linear itself so that you go beyond it and have a support performance, for example you are able to go to the past or the future at will, that’s one example when you already get this speed.
 
Regidian said:
if you want to discard it then make a crt because it's already accepted on his profile. So till the time it's on his profile then she will scale.
Click to expand...
For that too, I won’t make a CRT about it because I don’t know the sentence, I’m sorry🙏🏻
 
Kuro4416 said:
Iirc, you have to move faster than the time linear itself so that you go beyond it and have a support performance, for example you are able to go to the past or the future at will, that’s one example when you already get this speed.
Click to expand...
Even if you wanna say Dantes doesn't count theres still Abigail's portals and In her Void Shiki Key she should scale to the God Tiers such as Divine Spirits who mostly have Immeasurable speed I just wanted to make this thread simple and used her Power Mimicry
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
Even if you wanna say Dantes doesn't count theres still Abigail's portals and In her Void Shiki Key she should scale to the God Tiers such as Divine Spirits who mostly have Immeasurable speed I just wanted to make this thread simple and used her Power Mimicry
Click to expand...
Dantes definitely counts for immeasurable speed
 
If Abigail portals counts for Immeasurable, I think Void Shiki should due to her casual time travel statement.

Kuro4416 said:
Iirc, you have to move faster than the time linear itself so that you go beyond it and have a support performance, for example you are able to go to the past or the future at will, that’s one example when you already get this speed.
Click to expand...
Dantes does travel through timelines with his ability to escape space/time by the way.
 
How can a portal even count for immeasurable, when immeasurable is raw speed, “immeasurable with portals” is like saying “immeasurable with time travel”Doesn’t make sense to me at least.
 
TrueKingOfHeroes said:
I was wondering where dantes got immeasurable speed, because escaping from space-time still doesn't qualify. Do you have any evidence for that?
Click to expand...
Him arriving at the grand temple of time and sub singularity 3 (I think it was sub singularity 3)
 
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