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Void shiki physiology/abilities

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Well this will maybie a more controversial thread for Nasuverse but don't worry i will not talk about any tier just about abilities/physiology she should have (even tho it's will still not be liked), tell me if something are wrong or need to be more explained ( and with what) so i can try to find it and please don't talk about tiering and have mercy lol and sorry for the really long text

- First Void shiki should qualifie to have transduality with these feat (don't know what type it should be)

"法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、
世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている"

"As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is." - From Fate grand order.

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.
Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.
However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.
If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.
…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself." -Kara no kyoukai


- A description of "" from shiki when she have died


Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead.

Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryōgi, floated, and then
sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight.
There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness.
This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian
abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain:
a cypher called, simply, “ ”.
I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor
of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that
everything in this place comes to be the same way.
“Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it
was even real.
Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream
tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an
eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eter-
nity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it
was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the
fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a
place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter.
I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip.
Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate
measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought
for my life. Here, I awakened. -Kara no kyoukai Vol 2- page 6



She tell to separate the two polarities who are the Yin and Yang from Taichi and tell to be the manifestation as the world principle as saber shiki.



A text to how is definie taiji in nasuverse

"太極【たいきょく】【その他】
古代中国で生まれた思想、陰陽《おんみょう》説を表す図。
万物の状態を概念的に捉《とら》えたもので、能動的・活動的であるものを陽(白)、その逆になるものを陰(黒)と分けている。
昼と夜、明と暗、雄と雌と相反するものを象徴しながら、影響しあい流れあう世界の縮図とも言える。
また、陽の中には一点の陰、陰の中には一点の陽があるが、これは陰陽の区別は絶対的なものでなく、明の中にも暗がある、という事を示している。
太極は始まりの一であるが、この二つに分かれた陰陽を両儀という。
余談ではあるが、本編における魔術師たちは中国の思想とは相容《あいい 》れない西洋魔術の術師である."

"Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). " - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035

- More thing with yin and yang

She is the embodiment of the ryōgi, of two extremes, the
symbol of yin and yang given form, a great continuum of dynamism and
entropy. I am of the empty boundary in between, the channel that allowed
both to have united thoughts. I am their beginning, and I am their end,
connecting them to the spiral of origin. . -

- And tell to be in a place without boundaries that people with name can't enter (it's more a supportive feat)







- She should get immunity to soul manip too since she was just a body that have get a personnality after becoming the origin of shiki ryougi.

“Yet rather than the body arising from the existence of sentience, the
body is crafted well before the emergence of any kind of sentience. But the
body alone carries no sense of sapience. The body is simply there. But even
within such a simple thing, something drives it, something that connects
it to a primal origin.
The boy nods. He’s heard of this before; that there are three things any
human must have to live: the psyche, the soul, and the body. This girl then,
was Shiki’s true nature, what mages had called the origin of a person." - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - page 225


The girl nods and says, “Indeed. Not so large a surprise. All have an origin that carries some small spark of intelligence, but it never comes to fore at the beginning of life. It is the mind of a person that must carry that first burden, and transmute that along with the body to a personality. Thus
does the little intelligence of the origin lose meaning and fade. Yet a man’s
personality, knowing nothing of the body that made it whole, will assume
in his ignorance that his personality formed from sentience alone. The or-
der seemed to be wholly different in my case, however. Still, at least I can
thank Shiki for our little chat tonight. Without memories to tap into, I might
not have understood words let alone hold a conversation. I would just be a
little spark, worth next to nothing.”- kara no kyoukai - empty boundaries page 225/226




- She need to get abstract existence as an origin(don't know what type) and NEP 2 as emptiness too since Origin of one person is their fundamental cause, "the a that enable the existence of a". And she is the "", that is the emptiness that exist above infinite and finite (like show higher in text), is beetween the Yin and the Yang, and is the primmordial beginning if all thing that have created all creation and is in same time the entropie of all thing.(contain all concept and origin too and we know that concept that came from the root like the one that made the Meodp are type 2) and we know that someone who was NEP 2 don't have reach the true emptiness of the Root (kama)

“The spiral of origin is
the primordial beginning of all things in this pattern of reality. All things
pass through the great wheel, their natures and their histories—past, pres-
ent, and future—are connected to it. It is thus a vast and empty place. It
reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as
well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of
are allowed me. - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 -page 227


“Because I am but a simple mechanism operating on the instructions of
something inside me, yes. Just a vessel with sight turned inward, a body
connected to death and entropy, and what mages call The Akashic Record,
or the spiral of origin." - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - page 226


"Origin [Others]
The direction of everything that arose from fundamental cause. The α that enabled the existence of α, the absolute order that existed at the very core.
For instance, something with the Origin of "taboo", regardless of being born as a human, animal, or plant, would always exist to go against the morals established by the collective. - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Origin [Others], p.029-030

" If alignment determines the root of one's magic, then even deeper than that, is the origin which determined the root of one's existence. The origin is not only for magi, but is the orientation that all things are born with and it's existence itself is thought absolutely necessary." - Fate/complete material III: World Material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Magus, p.041

"Death Perception...
Vanish in the nothingness between Yin and Yang." Dialogue of Saber shiki





- She should get in her ability all the magecraft and magi that are usable/show/tell in Nasuverse since is tell by many people that all magecraft came from copying the Root and that the magi is directly connected to the Root and have is power from it.

"Aoko: You see Soujurou, magecraft is what we call common rules. Think of magic systems like runes and Kaballah as being universal manuals for their respective topics. As long as you have the manual, anyone can become a magus depending on the bloodline. But using magic is different. Magic isn't a copy from the "Whirl of the Root" like magecraft, it's directly connected to the Whirl of the Root.
Aoko: This "Whirl of the Root" is....well to put it ways in you can understand, try thinking it's something like the sun. It's far, and it's the first thing that's there, so we can't live our lives without it. Magecraft is just taking advantage of the blessing of the sun. Copying natural phenomena or compensation is what magecraft is all about. We learn, practice, recreate mysteries, but we can't make mysteries ourselves.
Aoko: In the first place, magic's kind of like the reward for a magus who has arrived at the "Whirl of the Root", and even if that caster doesn't have the physical ability to use it, just having a path to the Root lets him mystically do anything.
Soujuurou: So, what was it that Touko-san wanted to do?
Aoko: Huh, I didn't say? To get revenge on me and to touch the Root. You remember that talk about the Whirl of the Root, don't you?
Soujuurou: ....Was that the source of magecraft?
Aoko: Yes, and also our final objective. The Whirl of the Root is position where all knowledge is recorded, and all things are determined. If you can look, touch, understand it, even the word "impossible" can be remade." - Mahou Tsukai no Yoru - General True Magic and Root Information

"Mystery is a sliver of power of many different types that comes from the Root.
It is the source of all supernatural phenomena such as Magecraft or ESP. "



- And like we know she is allowed to do all of that and should do all the thing that came from or originated from the Root.

"It
reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as
well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of
are allowed me." Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 - Page 227

And for Void shiki we shouldn't use saber shiki as a counter since saber shiki is a illusion/avatar. Or we need to created a new key with one being as the body/origin and the other as the "", since we know she doesn't really need the body anymore but she use her connection to Shiki ryougi (normal) to see the world.

Being a mere illusion, she will leave no trace of herself in your memories once you wake up from your dream in order to save you from the grief.




So Conclusion of what she can get.

  • Transduality (the type you thing corresponding the better)
  • immunity to Soul manip
  • abstract existence as origin /NEP 2 as ""
  • the abilities to manipule the Root and all mysteries that have the Root as source (so all Magi, Magecraft, ESP etc)
    And creation of new key if needed
 
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Seems fine so far, unsure about Soul Manip immunity.
That can explain better if you want (they explain that a body house a soul and as she is the body/origin itself she don't have soul because she is the thing that house the soul of someone (here ryougi shiki "normal)

You, your character, and your very soul is shaped by travails, given
form in your body. A personality does not arise whole-formed from just a
mind and the sentience that accompanies it. It is through our bodies, al-
lowing us access to all these visceral experiences, that we take our steps
into precious self-awareness, and where we form our characters as extro-
verts, or introverts, or any number of other archetypes. A ‘personality’
shaped by sentience alone cannot hope to even reflect on what it is. Such
a thing is more akin to a calculator, I should think. If there is no personality,
then it becomes necessary to create one, starting from the very beginning.
“Yet rather than the body arising from the existence of sentience, the
body is crafted well before the emergence of any kind of sentience. But the
body alone carries no sense of sapience. The body is simply there. But even
within such a simple thing, something drives it, something that connects
it to a primal origin. I grew from such origins, born from sentience, raised
alongside the other two.


“No. The soul dwells in our memory, and it in turn animates us. But
it does not mean that it need only be fed with electricity to continue its
dream of fragile reality, deprived of a body that houses it.



And have that in the beggining of part 4 of Kara no kyoukai (page 3)

That which is discordant.
That which is hated.
That which is intolerable.
Accept these things and all others, and never know pain.
That which is harmonious.
That which is desired.
That which is permitted.
Reject these things and all others, and know nothing but pain.
One affirms, one denies.
Between two hearts lies the hollow.
Between two minds lies emptiness.
Between two souls, I reside.
 
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I think this is fine. (Keep in mind that my knowledge of The Garden of Sinners/Kara no Kyoukai/Boundary of Emptiness/Whatever You Want to Call It is limited to the movies (which were really good), so I might not be the best to evaluate this. Granted, I think some of this, like Origin's being concepts, Void Shiki not being a soul, and her being connected to the Root and is able to do anything because of that were in the movies, so I can at least that's completely fine with me. Though, the evidence for the rest seems fine to me).
 
I'm not even sure what type of Transduality this is. Dont even know who's expert on it to ask.
 
I can agree to transduality type 1
Shouldn't be more like type 2 because it's free for binary opposition and yin/yang and taichi who is essence of everything in a conceptuel level (+ that she live in a "place" without boundaries) ?
 
If yin/yang in nasu follow the same way in real world then they shoud be type 2
Taiji and yin/yang was described in kara no kyoukai, don't know if it's like the real world


"Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). " - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035


"She is the embodiment of the ryōgi, of two extremes, the
symbol of yin and yang given form, a great continuum of dynamism and
entropy. I am of the empty boundary in between, the channel that allowed
both to have united thoughts. I am their beginning, and I am their end,
connecting them to the spiral of origin. . - Kara no kyoukai - Vol- 3
 
That seem bother me with type 2 , due to taiji is the source of duality and yin yang is primal polar
 
There's also this though. Someone before call it close to ein sof.

「 」

仮[かり]に読み方をつけるとしたら、から。
受け取り方は人それぞれ。端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦。
が、根源の渦は根源の渦、という名前がある為、やはり「 」とは別物である。
「 」
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it 「Kara」.
Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer 「 」
 
That seem bother me with type 2 , due to taiji is the source of duality and yin yang is primal polar

The being is the tell to be free from binary opposition (so yin/yang), to be the one that separe the two polarities (yin/yang) and to be be the empty boundary between them.

Except if you tell that the description of yin/yang/taichi, binary opposition do not show his transduality over all duality?
 
They have short description but its easy to understand , anyway the qoute above is seem fine to me witj type2
 
Shouldn't be more like type 2 because it's free for binary opposition and yin/yang and taichi who is essence of everything in a conceptuel level (+ that she live in a "place" without boundaries) ?
Type 1 is safer, Type 2 assumes a bit too much
 
If the Root is the nothingness which is the source of all dualities, then Type 2 seems fine to me, taking it at face value. Don't see much of a reason to assume its nature only applies in relation to a specific set of binaries; some of the stuff in here seems like it could potentially give higher, but the OP said they aren't interested in bringing up tiers, so I'm respecting that.
 
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If the Root is the nothingness which is the source of all dualities, then Type 2 seems fine to me, taking it at face value. Don't see much of a reason to assume its nature only applies in relation to a specific set of binaries; some of the stuff in here seems like it could potentially give higher, but the OP said they aren't interesting in bringing up tiers, so I'm respecting that.
Thank for your help, and good to see it's could potentially give higher even if for this thread i will talk only about abilities a thread for the tier will surely be more later
 
Forgot to tell but in ability that she will be able to use, she should get too power that the root/akasha have store and archive since we know that from moon cell who is something that replica what does the root in a more limited scale and the people that can use moon cell, can get ability that he have see and archived like what BB have do.

"The Serial Phantasm, abbreviated SE.RA.PH, also known as The Photonic Abyss and Angelica Cage, is an artificial environment within the Moon Cell located inside of a spiritual computer system called Automaton. The system is similar to Akasha in the terms of holding the "stores and archives" of all human history."

"The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls. A pandora box that promises the next stage of evolution, promises god-like power to those intelligent lifeforms who have become technologically advanced enough to scan the interior of the moon."


Like BB have gain some power and ability from what Moon cell have archived and stored (it's include also Autority of the conceptual god), since The root include the throne of hereos it would include in her ability most of the power of the different heroic spirit

Potnia Theron [EX]
Potnia Theron (Conception of All Animals).
The authority of the goddesses whom BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the mooncell.

Existing outside of time, it stores and archives information of all possibilities and events, past, present, and future, of the world. It is the place from where all souls, including those of Heroic Spirits recorded on the Throne of Heroes, originate from and to where they return after death.
 
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When is the 1-A Root discussion

Edit: does everyone really agree that all True Magics, and Sorceries, come from the Root (or are powered by it directly by drawing from it as the source)? I remember that being a source of tension iirc.
 
I'm not seeing more than Type 1. Though if you aren't feeling particularly strict then thre is an argument for Type 2.
 
I'm not seeing more than Type 1. Though if you aren't feeling particularly strict then thre is an argument for Type 2.
Could you pls tell me what make you thing that it's more type 1, i don't see a thing that tell that he transcend only some binary/duality or even explicit tell it ?
 
When is the 1-A Root discussion

Edit: does everyone really agree that all True Magics, and Sorceries, come from the Root (or are powered by it directly by drawing from it as the source)? I remember that being a source of tension iirc.
No seriously, when are we getting 1-A Akasha?

I'm pretty sure they're supposed to come from the Root. I think True Magic comes from almost touching the Root so you don't erase yourself or something like that. I could be wrong, I'm not that well versed on the Root/Swirl of the Root/Swirl of Radix/Akasha/Akashic Records/Whatever Other Names it has.
 
No seriously, when are we getting 1-A Akasha?

I'm pretty sure they're supposed to come from the Root. I think True Magic comes from almost touching the Root so you don't erase yourself or something like that. I could be wrong, I'm not that well versed on the Root/Swirl of the Root/Swirl of Radix/Akasha/Akashic Records/Whatever Other Names it has.
I don't disagree with that. I do agree that True Magics/Sorceries should be root tier come directly from the root as it's source
 
Since Ultima and Qawsedf234 seem to disagree, I am not sure what we should do here.
 
see a thing that tell that he transcend only some binary/duality or even explicit tell it ?
I couldn't even find an instance of transcendence outside of the Yin-Yang thing, which I feel would be type 1. But as I said if you aren't feeling strict that can be reasoning for Type 2.
 
I couldn't even find an instance of transcendence outside of the Yin-Yang thing, which I feel would be type 1. But as I said if you aren't feeling strict that can be reasoning for Type 2.
But the Ying-Yang are what made the duality/binaries thing no? The Taichi description is tell that the essence of everything on a conceptual level fall into the Yang and Yin.

"It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black)."

And here talk about Taiji being the "one" in the beggining and that Yin and Yang are what that divide the "one". And "" is above that


Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). " -

But well if you more on type 1 we should wait for more opinions
 
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What is needed to prove "transcendence?"

Edit:

What about this information?

“ ”

#report error

other

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”
Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer
“ ”.

To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
 
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