Very Minor Sans Changes

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes.

 

[Chaoslordofchaos]

ok

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I believe that's...nine in favor of the update, now? Though I do want to hear DT's opinion on the jumpcuts, because his opinion is valuable.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Agree with the addition of Time Manipulation to Sans' abilities due to the reasons by Azzy above.

 

[DontTalk]

Most of this seems to be related to the Grillby's scene, which is fine, but could you address the "jumpcuts"?

The jumpcuts in his battle, or...?

All in all I don't see why this can not also be done through teleportation of sans, the player and the objects on the screen.

The reason why it is assumed that it is not, is because black screen and music.

Well, for one thing music is actually not skipped over in all instances (for example) and in the end the argument is basically that, because the game developers were not consistent in their use of black screen flickering sans requires to have some sort of ability. In other words that is an argument relying on the use of audiovisual effects again, and such arguments are in my opinion just generally not sufficient without much stronger arguments supporting them.

 

[Majin_Acolyte]

Well, for one thing music is actually not skipped over in all instances (for example)

The pause is still there, It's just a bit harder to hear during the low parts of Megalovania. However once the music picks up again the slight interruption during jump cuts is much more noticable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The jumpcuts in his battle, or...?

All in all I don't see why this can not also be done through teleportation of sans, the player and the objects on the screen.

The reason why it is assumed that it is not, is because black screen and music.

Well, for one thing music is actually not skipped over in all instances (for example) and in the end the argument is basically that, because the game developers were not consistent in their use of black screen flickering sans requires to have some sort of ability. In other words that is an argument relying on the use of audiovisual effects again, and such arguments are in my opinion just generally not sufficient without much stronger arguments supporting them.

As Majin said, the pause is still there, and I'm not seeing which part of this can be achieved via regular teleportation, unless he has the attacks ready somewhere else, and then teleports himself, Chara, and the attacks at the same time, all while never leaving the confines of the Judgment Hall, and that still doesn't explain everything going black and the specific "jumpcut" sequence.

As I've pointed out, we see Sans use regular teleportation on himself and on Chara, and in both instances, there is no cut to black, and there is no pause. The target of the teleportation simply ends up in their new location immediately, and that's it. They are very, very clearly shown to be different, so there is no reason whatsoever for the two of these to be considered the same power.

 

[DontTalk]

The attacks pretty much spawn off screen (scroll in teh box from the sides) and in various positions, there is no reason why he can not teleport create them and instantly teleport them into the right position. He doesn't even have to move himself or the place of battle, just the other stuff in the box and possibly its boundarys have to move.

So from the phenomenon we see there is actually no reason for time manipulation, teleportation is sufficient.

The rest again is argument over audiovisual effects. Like saying that because a character can produce red and blue flames one of the flame has to do something different than the other. One might think so, but it's not a sufficient criteria.

 

[Cohobast]

Most of the time the blue flame does something different though, why make it different if it didn't. Video games are an audiovisual medium more than anything else, effects exist to imply or explicitly show what's happening.This isnt a one time showing either, between the scene in Grillby's, Papyrus' mention of pranks accross time and space and the blackouts and audio cuts in his battle it still looks more likely to be something time related going on there as well at least as far as I can tell.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Audiovisual effects are very important, especially so in video games. This can't really be written off as a minor thing, especially when, again, we see his teleportation in action and this effect isn't caused. It wouldn't just occur for no reason, and because we know what his teleportation looks like (his eye lights up for a split second before the focus of his teleportation is warped), we shouldn't just assume this to be teleportation with a meaningless effect added. Especially since, if the logic behind the screen going black is Chara being teleported, things like that are already debunked by Sans teleporting Chara at the end of the battle and nothing of that sort occurring in the slightest.

 

[DontTalk]

Audiovisual effects are important in games, but they are not there to serve for explanation.

I understand the argument that things are supposed to be consitent upon use, but in effect that is not always a case. This is only true as long as you trust the creator of the medium in being consistet about such things.

Likewise I usually trust an author on not hiding abilities or other mechanisms he thought up from the reader, since he doesn't have a reason to only make things half clear in a piece he writes for other people. And this would very much be a hidden ability, since seemingly the most people having played the game did not have the idea that sans has this ability.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a very strong argument against it either just that it is about equally unsatisfying as an argument based on consistency of audiovisual effects.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I definitely agree on the author not having reason to hide things from the reader/player for the vast majority of characters, and I probably wouldn't be arguing this for someone else, but this is a character who, despite his often jovial nature, is very explicitly left mysterious in many aspects. Hell, his primary power which is pivotal to both his character and boss fight isn't even flat out explained, but instead essentially fed to the player by dialogue he has in different routes, the nature of certain mechanics in the world you wouldn't otherwise think about, and short flavor text during his fight that many players would likely skip over entirely.

Other examples include things such as Gasterblasters, the weapons which suggest his strong connection to W.D. Gaster, having their name hidden in the game's files, and the fact that the reason he knows so much about space-time is likely because he is a time traveller and former scientist. None of this is directly stated. He doesn't come up to you and say "I'm a time traveller", but instead gives strong suggestions by being one of the only characters aware of Frisk's time powers, giving them the key to his room once they prove to be a time traveller, and having a broken machine in his room which, via dialogue in his battle, is suggested to be a time machine.

Even with uncovering almost all secrets the game has to offer, Sans is one of the only characters left purposely vague in many respects, and the things we do know about him are almost never flat out stated to you.

I believe that's why, in this case, the "skipping" he does being distinctly different than the teleportation is very, very important. This is a game where even some of the tiniest things have meaning, after all.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

this seems alright to me.

 

[DontTalk]

@Azathoth: As said it is not necessarily a strong argument. One could now argue about how much of a difference there is between things like the hints towards time travel, that undertale wiki for example mentions on its page, and this, which almost no one seemingly stumbled upon to this point, but I lack the in depth knowledge about undertale to lead such a discussion, since that would require figuring out the reasons for the differentiate between the cases (heck I have seen a lets play from a pacifist run and some bits of genocide, not more).


All in all it's like literary scholars even today still are in disagreement about the interpretation of Kafkas works.

The result one gets here strongly depend on which level of evidence one expects to be existent for something to be ascertained and how much one trusts in the author for every pattern that is recognizable to be intended and meaningful.

In other words I doubt that we will reach an agreement, given that our disagreement is on a fundamental level.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@DT

This is very true, and as such it is probably better to let others voice their opinions on the matter, I suppose.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

BTH, I considered that Sans use timeleaping (jumping or whatever) agaisnt Chara during their battle, because Sans seems to be sauting your turns.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I'm not convinced by the time-stop argument from as it really does seem like a visual effect more plot related than a legitimate showing of abilities. Other arguments can simply be explained via spatial manipulation and teleportation.

However, it was stated that Sans does prank Papyrus across space-time and compiled with the name for the internal file which has been known to accurately give names for particular abilities, I fully agree with Sans gaining Time Manipulation, though how he does so should be listed, such as "via skipping", or perhaps, "can move across the timeline".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. While I'm not entirely convinced yet, assuming he gets it, how would it be applicable to vsbattles? Would it be akin to Hit?

 

[DontTalk]

Alright. While I'm not entirely convinced yet, assuming he gets it, how would it be applicable to vsbattles? Would it be akin to Hit?

Interesting question actually. Why do we even assume that it is timestop?


The current argumentation used goes by audiovisual effects.

Not only is the grillbys scene doubtful in my opinion and if the case is argued over consistency of audiovisual patterns it actually doesn't fit in.

The sound-effect in question doesn't occur, the screen doesn't cut black and the player is capable of observing the stuff happening during the scene, other than in the later battle.

So both argumentations seem to point as this scene not being what he uses in his battle, if he uses anything. So we can really write that of as dramatic effect I suppose.


Now if we look at the rest of the arguments there is no strict reason to assume timestop other than that, but there are reasons against it.

First the name of the file is "Sans timejump", not "Sans timestop" so if we are arguing that tiny details have meaning that formulation difference should be taken notice of.

Second the game during the whole time is spectated from the perspective of Frisk/Chara, even though with 3rd person perspective most of the time. Non the less of the creator is consistent in the perspective he gives the player if a timestop occurs that does not effect frisk/chara he would have to let the player see into this scene, because firsk/chara can do that as well. So if there is an explanation that doesn't require breaking the perspective usually used before that one would be preferable.

Third we still have to assume timestop resistance for at least chara/frisk if not more characters, an explanation that doesn't require that is preferable by occam's razor.

Fourth we don't have to assume that chara already takes the wheel at a point were the player is still in charge for the most part.

With that given there is an ability that fits the mark better than timestop and that ability is a timeskip, so to say. He makes things skip a portion of time, instead of stopping time.

The use in that is exactly what happens to the one playing undertale during battle: The fast transitioning between scenes is disorienting.

The player doesn't view the things that happen, because chara/frisk don't view them either.

Music is skipped, because time is skipped.

Nobody requires resistance, since sans couldn't simply kill them if they don't.

Sans can disappear using this ability, by skipping over the time he leaves in.

Attacks and scenes appear, because those are the attacks done later on in the battle

And he "jumps" over a portion of time instead of stopping time, fitting the filename better.


So all in all it seems to me like the two options should be either requiring stronger evidence than audiovisual effects or timeskip.

We also don't really know how much time he can jump over actually if we were to accept this.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with DontTalk.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Like I was saying, Sans seema to have Timeskipping/leapping

Although, what he use in the Genocide Route (Just before Snowdin, when he warns you to stop) is Teleportation or "Timejump"?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The current argumentation used goes by audiovisual effects.

Not only is the grillbys scene doubtful in my opinion and if the case is argued over consistency of audiovisual patterns it actually doesn't fit in.

The sound-effect in question doesn't occur, the screen doesn't cut black and the player is capable of observing the stuff happening during the scene, other than in the later battle.

So both argumentations seem to point as this scene not being what he uses in his battle, if he uses anything. So we can really write that of as dramatic effect I suppose.


Now if we look at the rest of the arguments there is no strict reason to assume timestop other than that, but there are reasons against it.

First the name of the file is "Sans timejump", not "Sans timestop" so if we are arguing that tiny details have meaning that formulation difference should be taken notice of.

Second the game during the whole time is spectated from the perspective of Frisk/Chara, even though with 3rd person perspective most of the time. Non the less of the creator is consistent in the perspective he gives the player if a timestop occurs that does not effect frisk/chara he would have to let the player see into this scene, because firsk/chara can do that as well. So if there is an explanation that doesn't require breaking the perspective usually used before that one would be preferable.

Third we still have to assume timestop resistance for at least chara/frisk if not more characters, an explanation that doesn't require that is preferable by occam's razor.

Fourth we don't have to assume that chara already takes the wheel at a point were the player is still in charge for the most part.

With that given there is an ability that fits the mark better than timestop and that ability is a timeskip, so to say. He makes things skip a portion of time, instead of stopping time.

The use in that is exactly what happens to the one playing undertale during battle: The fast transitioning between scenes is disorienting.

The player doesn't view the things that happen, because chara/frisk don't view them either.

Music is skipped, because time is skipped.

Nobody requires resistance, since sans couldn't simply kill them if they don't.

Sans can disappear using this ability, by skipping over the time he leaves in.

Attacks and scenes appear, because those are the attacks done later on in the battle

And he "jumps" over a portion of time instead of stopping time, fitting the filename better.


So all in all it seems to me like the two options should be either requiring stronger evidence than audiovisual effects or timeskip.

We also don't really know how much time he can jump over actually if we were to accept this.

As already pointed out, the sound effect does occur. Rewatch the scene. It is subtle, but it does indeed happen as soon as the scene begins.

I am not sure what one can take "timejump" to mean other than some form of time manipulation. It does not strictly need to be time stop, but arguing a technique called timejump does not involve some form of time manipulation seems...off.

Already pointed out as well is that the effect occurs when he uses it outside of battle, as well. As in, when it is strictly from the Player's perspective. It occurs in both cases. You can rewatch the scenes I linked.

I don't see why we'd have to assume some form of time manipulation resistance for anyone but Frisk and Chara, who already very, very explicitly show time manipulation and resistance. Assuming they cannot form some sort of resistance to timestop despite being able to transcend the confines of basic time ignores events very clearly shown in the game.

This does not require the assumption that Chara has already fully taken the wheel. I have no idea where you got that.

...Wait...you agree with timeskip? Because as I said before, a form of time manipulation that is not direct time stopping is also very much a possibility, and I already agree that skipping time/jumping forward in time is a very likely solution, which would make our disagreement null.

 

[DontTalk]

As already pointed out, the sound effect does occur. Rewatch the scene. It is subtle, but it does indeed happen as soon as the scene begins.
Hmmmm... ok as soon as i got a video without voiceacting it's there. Non the less the rest is different from the other scenes.

I am not sure what one can take "timejump" to mean other than some form of time manipulation. It does not strictly need to be time stop, but arguing a technique called timejump does not involve some form of time manipulation seems...off.
As said if anything skipping time seems to be more fitting.

This does not require the assumption that Chara has already fully taken the wheel. I have no idea where you got that.
If we argue that during a timestop sans does stuff, which would seem so, we have to argue that during timestop the attacks are dodged and since the player doesn't get to see things happening during the timestop (if he would it would be clear that such an ability exists) someone else has to do it for him. So you would have to assume that chara makes the heart dodge during the timestop, since there is no user input to make it dodge.

...Wait...you agree with timeskip? Because as I said before, a form of time manipulation that is not direct time stopping is also very much a possibility, and I already agree that skipping time/jumping forward in time is a very likely solution, which would make our disagreement null.

No, I still have the opinion that the evidence is not strong enough.

All I am saying is that timeskip is the interpretation the argumentation would lead to otherwise.

To make this actually lead anywhere how about "possibly timeskip" and an explanation with the reasoning on the page? That's how I dealt with ambitious things in the past. Would still leave the question on wether we have any way to pinpoint the extent of the possible ability though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Some form of "Possible Timeskip" or something to that extent is fine with me, if others are ok with it.