Very Minor Sans Changes

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So while replaying Undertale, I realized Sans probably does have time manipulation along with his spatial manipulation. During a pacifist/neutral run in which Papyrus is spared, Sans will invite Frisk to join him at Grillby's as soon as they reach Waterfall. After Sans takes a "shortcut" to Grillby's, he shares some small talk with Frisk. However, there is a point at which Sans suddenly wishes to have a serious and rather secretive conversation to see if Frisk knows anything about a talking flower, and when he initiates this conversation, everything around the two of them suddenly stops. The music ceases, and everything seems to come to a halt, as even Grillby's flames, which are otherwise constantly moving, freeze in place. It is highly unlikely this is done for dramatic effect, as nothing even remotely similar happens in other parts of the game, or in other serious conversations with Sans.

However, something important to note about this instance is it is the only serious Sans conversation which occurs amidst a crowd of people, and as soon as he gets down to business, time seems to stop. This would make sense, as he's very secretive, and likely doesn't want anyone who might be listening in hearing this info. Sans being able to manipulate space-time on this scale is also reinforced by stuff like he and Frisk materializing in MTT Resort's restaurant despite walking away from an entrance and no time passing, him vanishing out of said restaurant while walking towards a wall, and the fact that during his fight, there are times when the Player will simply "blink" out of reality before suddenly being surrounded by a much different attack, which would not have been possible to set up so quickly, otherwise.

But of course, most importantly, this explains why it is literally impossible to for Chara to hit Sans actually breaking the established rules of the game/world, even if he's asleep or they've reset the timeline hundreds of times.

Basically, all I'm saying is Sans should probably have Time Stop/Time Manipulation added to his Powers and Abilities.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

>Very Minor

M8 you're serious. It's pretty much far from beyond minor, even if it's not about stats.

About that thing, his "Teleportation" ability could be both done by very efficient teleportation or time stop. So I'm not too sure about this (Although Papyrus do state that Sans pranked Frisk accross space-time).

And I tried to add Sans' dodging ability as an actual thing before and got metaphorically slapped for it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True, it could be teleportation or time stop in those cases, or maybe teleportation achieved via his space-time powers, but the thing in Grillby's is definitely time stop. Not sure about his dodging, though that's probably due to his space-time shenanigans because, as I said, Chara literally cannot hit him without being so Determined they overcome the rules of the world and strike out of turn and during his dialogue; the only time he couldn't see it coming.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I guess it would make sense for it to be time stop. But I'd rather see it as "possibly" rather than outright time stop.

Well like I said, I agree that Sans' dodging is more than Sans being simply fast. But it's the other you would have to convince.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True. Also might be important to mention that similar to in his battle, when Sans vanishes in front of you during the genocide run, the screen cuts to pure black before returning to normal with Sans nowhere to be seen. The same effect occurs during the fight with him, in which the entire screen goes black, before returning with now entirely different objects and attacks on screen which would be impossible to set up this fast. In both these cases, it's treated as if, from your perspective, pieces of time are completely missing (something that would be achieved via time stop).

An example of Sans using normal teleportation can be seen on the way to the closed Ruins door in Snowdin, where Sans will simply mess with you by teleporting whenever you look away. In this case, the "missing time" effect does not occur.

 

[DontTalk]

I wouldn't count on that scene implying time manipulation, really.

It seems like a slightly humoristic version of a classical stylistic device in which during a serious and for the protagonist often emotionally stressful situation among a crowd of people the time seems to stop. That is often done together with darkening the background an effect that is taken here as well, which would not be explained through the time stop theory at all.

An example for a show where it happens would be death note.

I don't think a repeat of this is necessary at a later point for that to be taken as simple dramatic effect, as it is done humoristic with sans talk seemingly quickly driving of to trivial matters. A repeat wouldn't have a meaning for something done partly due to humour and dramatic effects are not necessarily consistent in the first place.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

The problem in this case though is that nothing in that part of the scene is done in a humorous tone or as a parody. It is 100% serious, and as I said before, it's the only serious conversation with Sans in which you are surrounded by other people. This is also for a character who seems to suddenly appear out of nowhere, has shown at the very least examples of basic teleportation and spatial manipulation, and has explicit knowledge of time travel.

An example of a purely humoristic segment from the game would be Sans making a joke, a drum beat playing, the camera zooming in and him doing a comedic shrug. This is something entirely different.

Though thinking about it, the "missing time" from the player's perspective is actually probably more obvious evidence for Sans doing something time related.

 

[DontTalk]

If it was the only serious conversation that might as well fit the mark also. Than it is a serious effect done for a serious scene. And as said such effects aren't overused and generally don't have to be consistent.

Furthermore as said time stop doesn't exactly explain why it is getting darker aka they suddenly standing in a spot light. That for example clearly points to visual effect IMO.


But most of all, while a metafictional story invites to interpret effects and game mechanics in terms of real world phenomenons, in my opinion this really requires more solid proof than such interpretations.

As far as I see it this is not more solid than some of the more plausible headcanons, a clear statement/explanation or actual use in battle would be a lot more convincing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As far as I see it this is not more solid than some of the more plausible headcanons, a clear statement/explanation or actual use in battle would be a lot more convincing.

As I mentioned, the "missing time" is actually likely the more solid evidence, as its effects in and out of battle are not explained via basic teleportation (in that he quite literally seems to skip forward into completely different attacks with no time passing inbetween), and Sans' basic teleporting of both himself and your SOUL is done much differently.

 

[DontTalk]

Assuming he can selectively stops time would actually also cause plotholes wouldn't it?

You are assuming in your argument that it works against chara, in that case he wouldn't need to fight long. Could basically just go ahead and kill chara during a timestop every time.

The parts in sans battle could be explained by being teleported, given that one thing that happens is also that the player changes position. Or it just is a game design decision, because without some break between transitioning from one thing or another the player could not react well to the enviorment change or some other reason (heck am I a game developer?).

One thing is also that one is not supposed to see sans using "short cuts", right? Could be a reason, why all of the times he teleports while on screen are covered through a scene change, like a short black screen is often interpreted as.

All in all we have a situation where we have an ability that is not taken important enough to be demonstrated on screen in an obvious fashion, which is never reacted to or commented on by anyone and is not mentioned or explained in any official instance at all. Personally I have a hard time considering such an ability as properly proven.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Why does wikia keep eating my comments?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'll see if it goes through when I post shorter messages. Anyway, something I forgot to mention earlier is that the exact same sound effect for Sans' "jump cuts" is used when everyone else freezes in Grillby's.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Once everyone starts moving again, Sans gets up to leave, but turns around to tell you he forgot what he was going to say to you, despite having just had the conversation. This makes no sense until you realize the last thing he says before everyone else freezes is "i want to ask you something".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It would seem odd to the rest of the patrons had Sans said that to Frisk and then just left, so he likely says this to not arrouse suspicion. Otherwise, as I said, the line serves no purpose and doesn't make sense if you assume everything else stopping to only be a visual effect.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You just kinda explained something I've always been wondering about @Azzy

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Assuming he can selectively stops time would actually also cause plotholes wouldn't it?
You are assuming in your argument that it works against chara, in that case he wouldn't need to fight long. Could basically just go ahead and kill chara during a timestop every time.

The parts in sans battle could be explained by being teleported, given that one thing that happens is also that the player changes position. Or it just is a game design decision, because without some break between transitioning from one thing or another the player could not react well to the enviorment change or some other reason (heck am I a game developer?).

One thing is also that one is not supposed to see sans using "short cuts", right? Could be a reason, why all of the times he teleports while on screen are covered through a scene change, like a short black screen is often interpreted as.

Resisting timestop is absolute chump change for someone of Chara's level of Determination, at that point. For example, Frisk resisted being erased from existence by Determination alone.

Teleporting to where, though? The battle never leaves the Judgment Hall, and attacks which were not there before are now suddenly present. Not to mention, as I already said, whenever Sans teleports you (in the same fight), only your SOUL is shown moving. During these "jump cuts", the entire screen goes black for a split second and suddenly everything is different. This could not be achieved by mere teleportation in a small hallway.

As I said, there are moments when no scene change occurs. He teleports in Snowdin without any sort of scene change and puts gives you his keys via teleportation without any sort of scene change or screen effect.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You just kinda explained something I've always been wondering about @Azzy

Which thing? The "i was gonna tell you something, but i forgot" thing?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah. I always assumed Sans legit forgot or it was a referce to something else later in the game.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah. I always assumed Sans legit forgot or it was a referce to something else later in the game.

I initially wondered about it too, but the only other important things he tells you later are about the promise he made to Toriel (which he explicitly tells you because you're so close to meeting Asgore) and what EXP and LOVE really mean (which he tells you in the Judgment Hall for very, very obvious reasons).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am also not sure if this name comes from the files (like the Gasterblasters do), but the sound effect also seems to be referred to as "Sans timejump".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The same group of sound files seems to label Omega Flowey's laugh as "Flowey X laugh". "Flowey X" is what Photoshop/Omega Flowey is referred to as in the games internal files, so it seems to be legitimate.

Though still, I believe the info I posted earlier should be sufficient on its own, hopefully.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So Sans is King Crimson now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The "I forgot" thing is very much a fakeout. Pokemon HGSS did the same thing with the radio director. Sans is a prankster. He just told you something serious, and he made it seem like he was going to tell you something again, but lolnoped it. This is the same guy who jokes (more or less) about killing you.

Besides, as DT pointed out, no one has shown resistance to timestop. So many things could've been avoided if he had timestop, like Flowey capturing him, or Chara ever killing him. Just because DETERMINATION has no shown limits doesn't mean it doesnt have any at all.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

A fakeout from what, though? He already messed with you seconds before by trying to stick you with the dinner tab, and literally just saying "i was going to say something, but forgot" without any buildup of any sort or room for the other party to respond isn't really a fakeout. It's just an incredibly out of place statement. If he said "i have something very important to tell you..." and there was dramatic buildup which culminated with him just going "but i forgot", that would be a fakeout.

Frisk continued to move when there was no more time via their own Determination. Twice. That's leagues beyond basic timestop. When Flowey captured Sans, he had all six human SOULS (as he pointed out immediately prior), so there's literally nothing Sans could have done to him at that level of Determination.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's just a fakeout in general. Sans is a guy who likes pulling a ton of pranks. Another thing is that the scenario itself is a common theater trope. It's referred to as an aside. Coming from someone who's been in several plays, this fits the bill perfectly. Also, Sans isn't a guy who minds showing his powers, as evidenced by Doggo not liking him for appearing without moving. Heck, what he tells you in itself isn't that important because he thinks someone's playing a prank on Papyrus. Only you and Frisk think it's important because we originally assume he's speaking about Flowey.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, I don't see what makes it a fakeout. A fakeout would imply there is some sort of buildup and Sans averts what you were expecting. He quite literally just says he forgot what he was going to tell you without giving you a chance to respond and leaves, despite just having a lengthy conversation with you. This line has no real point if we assume everything was moving normally.

I'm well aware of what an aside is, and I've already addressed this, above. On top of said "aside" using the exact same sound effect for when Sans "jump cuts", his following dialogue suggests no other patrons had experienced the conversation. He also seems to believe it to be much more than a harmless prank, since he's more grave when telling you to keep an eye out, and very likely suspects something to be up. After all, he has encountered Flowey numerous other times in other timelines, and is shown to retain some of that awareness, such as when he becomes uneasy around you if you have killed him and completed a genocide run before, even if your current run is entirely pacifist.

Edit: Also, nobody seems to have addressed Sans "time jumps" yet, which are very clearly not just teleporting.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, but everyone else has faint memories of precious timelines, like Toriel remembering your choice of pie, or Undyne sorta recalling vague memories of you. Also, even if he's suspicious, he has no reason of stopping time to tell a kid he doesn't know that well about his predicament. Sure, he takes interest in Frisk, but I doubt enough to bring up Flowey. And asides are meant to have no other people experiencing the conversation, my friend. The HGSS fakeout had no buildup either.

For the sound, I'm pretty sure it's just that. A sound, just like sans. is. Now I want you to know that this comparison that I'm about to make might be wrong. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the sound of Undyne's eye flashing is the same sound of her spears during the Run sequence. One that I'm sure is a good comparison is that the sound of Undyne going UtU, the final elevator malfunction, and Flowey becoming Asriel is the same.

The point about him not hesitant about showin his powers and the Doggo point still stands.

Finally, I hope this debate doesn't affect our friendship negatively.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

By the way, should one of us highlight this?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Oh, my point wasn't that remembering is exclusive to him. It's that since he likely retains memories of Flowey, he's likely far more cautious than he lets on, as he knows this "prank" may be much, much more than that. Asides have no other people experience them because more often than not they represent more internal thoughts that would not be spoken in a regular conversation, though.

Yes, there are many sounds that share a few sources, though my point here was that this particular sound is only used for two things; Sans' "jump cuts", and this conversation. In this case, they seem far too closely intertwined to be a coincidence.

Isn't Doggo blind, though? I don't see how he would really know anything about Sans' powers, meaning Sans would have no reason to be secretive around him.

I would never let something stupid like minor disagreement do that, man.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Maybe? Idk.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Before anything, great. Phew. I'm glad to hear that, as you're def in my top 10 on this site.

On Doggo, it's evident that he does in fact notice (he can only see things moving. He'd be very surprised to find Sans there) And if a blind person does, anyone should notice.

Asides can be between a few people whispering too. He'd likely be keeping his voice down. Besides, it's not like people would be in other people's bar conversations. That would be rude, and likely get someone into a drunken bar fight lol.

Also, still doesn't explain why he'd stop time for Frisk and not the members of the army that were there. He's not familiar with Frisk's determination abilities.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Thanks, man. Means a lot.

Bluh. Right. Forgot he could only see movement. Though then again, he is shocked when Frisk stands still and pets him, so I don't think Doggo is very much of a worry. He seems to spend his days smoking dog treats.

lol Indeed. Though as I said before, it seems odd for this specific portion of the conversation to become an aside, and Sans to then address Frisk as if other people had heard everything prior to it.

Wait, members of which army? I'm a bit confused.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All of the dogs. I remember them being a part of Undyne's special squad. Like her dog Ginyu Force. She says something like that if you kill them all (sans Papyrus. Pun not intended) and face her.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ah, right. Well I doubt he'd want them hearing anything, since he seems to trust Frisk more, seeing them as an anomaly and wanting to get all buddy-buddy with them and all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I thought he saw the player as an anomaly. Anyway, Frisk is still a kid, approximately the age of Monster Kid (or Asriel), a human, and someone he just met. Timestop would be a little much. Besides, doesn't he speak seriously in front of the ficus licker later?

Though, how'd he address frisk as if everyone heard him again? Was it the I forgot line?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think in that case, he was referring to Frisk as opposed to the player, as he specifically mentions trying to befriend the anomaly. While he likely knows of the Player's existence, unlike say...Chara or Flowey, he can't see or interact with them.

Yeah, I think the ficus licker is present, though a man standing in the corner licking a ficus is a bit different than being surrounded by multiple individuals only several feet away.

Yeah, the I forgot line. As opposed to other lines, he says it while standing at the front of the bar as opposed to right next to Frisk.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's because he was leaving and did the you-know-what-I'm-going-to-say as a joke. Yes, I'm still leading with that lol.

Although, if he was trying to befriend the anomaly, why would he put him in harms way by being time-stoppingly serious if he thought it was likely Flowey instead of a prank? Heck, why would be even bring up prank?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

lol True, though the specific choice does seem...intentional, as opposed to just more of Sans' shenanigans.

Most likely because just as we assume Sans to be talking about Flowey at first, Sans likely assumes that Frisk does not know who Flowey is, and likely hasn't seen him in the current timeline, yet. Meaning while he may have some faint memories of him, he does not have any first hand proof he exists, and definitely doesn't know if Frisk has become...er..."acquainted" with him, yet.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But that's my point. Why would he tell Frisk of all people.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Probably because while they've just recently met, Sans knows there's something special about Frisk. Toriel did tell him to protect them, after all. That might also be part of the reason as to why he says "keep an eye out" in the first place, due to having some idea in the back of his mind of how dangerous Flowey is.