Verse equalization (Standard assumptions for vs-battles sub thread)

[DontTalk]

"Verse equalization: I initially didn't even want to list it, but I guess it is important to mention. To make it short I like the ACF wikis approach on energy equivalence. One might have to discuss how verses are equalized with different forms of supernatural abilities that are equally important. Like for example if in a battle between one piece and To aru majutsu no index devil fruits would be equalized to magic or esper abilities. " - From Standard asumptions thread

Many people seemed to disagree with that, so I would like to discuss that in this thread.

What would be the specific way you would do verse equalization and with which reasoning?

 

[Antoniofer]

I didn't said that I'm disagree, I was meaning that would be difficult to equalizate the power of one verse to another. For example, long time ago I tried to equalizate the Death Note to others verses, but was... complicated

 

[GreatestSin]

there is also a issue of "tiers in the verse", if i take the example antoniofer: shinigamis of death note are immune to the death note, but would still also be true for other beings who are clearly less in "divinity/immortality" than the death-note-shinigamis?

for example the shinigamis of Bleach, how should they be rated?

i think it always requires a case to case discussion, since we have no "official" examples which can be used as example i would say the preferences of the debating group (or the OP) will be the deciding factor ^_^ (in short: what i try to say is that not the energy alone needs it be equivalized, sometimes even beings require it)

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, some verses are easy to mesh like Nasuverse and Narutoverse, while other are not so simple.

 

[LazyHunter]

This is a tricky subject. Some verse equalization is always needed to avoid things that would make the battles impossible or really unfair in silly ways, like Bleach's shinigami being invisible to stronger characters from other verses that don't have spiritual power, One Piece's Logia being intangible if you don't have Haki, or Harry Potter/Toaru wizards/magicians becoming undetectable to everyone in other verses with charms/spells like Fidelius or the people-clearing field. There's also some things like Imagine Breaker, which negates supernatural powers in general (in the Toaruverse that being magic, esper powers and divine things like Telesma), that are easy to equalize. General things like anti-magic or weapons/techniques that are more effective/only effective against particular races like humans, dragons, demons, gods, etc; can likely be equalized without much trouble unless there's very specific verse mechanics involved. It's not like we are trying to meld two settings dynamics that were never meant to interact in a serious way, so I have no problem with this level of equalization.

The thing is, there are powers/abilities with mechanics that are clearly tied to their universe in such a way that it might be unfair/illogical to equalize them to other universes, even if the two powers are called magic, psychic/esper, etc. I'll mostly stick to Toaru for examples since it's the verse I have more knowledge of, but there's likely more examples.

Things like Takitsubo's AIM Stalker, AIM Jammers or Rensa's esper copying abilities are tied to something that clearly only belongs to Toaru's esper powers, as unlike Imagine Breaker they don't work in other supernatural powers in the same setting. I wouldn't agree with saying they can copy/affect devil fruit powers or even other settings' psychic powers that aren't AIM-based. The inverse is also true, esper abilities in Toaru work differently from other psychic powers, so for example I wouldn't consider likely that a character that can copy psychic abilities in a setting where those are treated as just a supernatural power you're born with or have would be capable of copying Toaru's espers, since their powers come from having their brain and consciousness tampered with to the point they've essentially become very focused and limited reality warpers. That hypothetical mimic character could also lack the enhanced intellect/calcullation capabilities that are key to Toaru's esper powers. Mimics are troublesome characters in this context, so it might be best to leave how to deal with them and if they can copy other verse's powers with very different mechanics to another discussion.

Resistances can also be tricky if they get specific instead of a general "resistance to magic"-type stuff. I saw it came up in a Saitama vs Accelerator discussion, where people argued Accelerator wouldn't be able to affect Saitama's attacks because Saitama had displayed resistance to Tatsumaki's chi/aura manipulation based psychic attack which can be resisted by people with strong willpower. Obviously, this is something that doesn't work with Toaru's or other settings' psychic/esper powers, nor should it work with magic or other powers like reality warping (still saw it claimed once, though), but it would likely work with other settings' willpower based techniques. Similarly, other verses' characters with extraordinay willpower would share the same resistance to Tatsumaki's technique.

Another example: there are two Durarara characters that resisted Saika's (a supernatural sentient blade) mind control, but as I understand it that control is based on the sword taking advantage of your pain and fear as you're stabbed/slashed, which is why Shizuo was unaffected (basically feels no physical pain and only fears his own power and rage). Proving it's not Shizuo being special, the second character to do so was a normal human character, who despite losing an eye managed to use willpower to resist the control. I feel neither of these characters would resist other types of mind-controllers like Misaki Shokuhou who don't really care how much willpower you have; in Misaki's case because what she does is manipulating a human's brain chemistry. Proof? Her powers worked on Touma, and if there's something that Touma has a surplus of, it's willpower/determination. Misaka Mikoto's resistance to mind control might also need checking, as it's just against electricity based mind control. So while it wouldn't work against magic mind control, it would work against something like Medaka Box's Weighted Words.

I feel most of the verse equalization conflicts should be able to be solved with a bit of common sense and trying to be fair to both sides of the matchup without completely warping or changing how an ability works.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Verse Equalization is something of a double-edged sword. Some people might get the wrong idea.

I would say that, in a battle between Light Yagami and a goomba, even if Light learned his name ("Don't call me Flunky!"), he still couldn't kill him because the Death Note is a weapon used by the Shinigami to harvest human life and the goomba's life is both inhuman and bound to the Underwhere. I'm also not so sure as to the biology of goombas and whether or not they can have heart-attacks, which in and of itself would limit Light's ability to make the death quick and snappy while the little mushroom goblin attempts to rush him. To me this makes sense for Light, as his whole shtick is that he's a fairly normal young man with an instant-kill technique with half a million restrictions that he's learning to get around.

Things get foggy, however, with cosmic absolutes like the Force. Can Darth Vader choke Fire Emblem's Black Knight if he comes from a 'verse without midichlorians? Logically, no, but that's no fun for Vader and it goes against Star Wars' "The Force is everywhere," mentality! So I would rule that, like StarDestroyer.net, the Force would still work.

So it's a matter of specific vs general. Now then, onto defenses and weaknesses.

If the character in question is someone like Ganondorf who can only be defeated by (or, according to this site's opinion as spelt out in Dungeons and Dragons terms, "Has really high damage resistance to everything except") holy items on account of his incredible power and divine backing, then I would say that any holy weapon would be able to do some work on him. Things like Kirby's Star Rod, Rainbow Sword, and Love-Love Stick would be able to pierce his defenses, and Meta Knight's magical fire-alien crafted blade Galaxia would be a better tool than the Master Sword on account of its similar backstory and feel to Link's blade. It meets the criteria established as the weakness.

Now then, let's say that we've got some sort of character who has won many a fight against a mage because of his ability to resist spells targeted at him with ease. Fireballs explode harmlessly around him, and he's still standing after the dust from a polymorph spell clears. I would say that this character's magical resistances would be able to repeatedly ward off Killing Curses from Harry Potter, Majin Buu's Candy Beam, or Kamek's attempts to turn his weaponry into flip-flops in the Mario-verse. They're all still mages trying to slam him with spells, and he is walking anti-magic, so it makes sense to me. I would say that he would not, however, enjoy a Kamehameha or a fire bender's attacks nearly so much, as those are ki, not magic.

It's all about pattern recognition.



An explanation, courtesy of Webcomic El Goonish Shive.

 

[Alexcar3000]

An explanation, courtesy of Webcomic El Goonish Shive.

I'd say it's the other way around, Mr. Atom w/ a hat.

 

[DontTalk]

Let me just ask: There was a lot of input where it comes to problems with verse equalization and there where a lot of examples given on how one could do it in specific cases.

What I lack is mostly suggestions on general rules that would mind the problems and judge the all (or most) specific cases correctly.

Maybe it would be a good idea to just not put verse equalization rules to the assumptions and let things be discussed on individual basis in the vs threads?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Sounds like the best scenario.

Verse Equalization could be either be a hamper on a fun story scenario ("Vader is warped into a match against Ganondorf in Hyrule and suddenly can't use the Force to help him!"), or it could help patch up weird debater statements and inconsistencies that make no sense ("Kamek's geometric spells fly through Elminister's antimagic field without being stopped! Because glowing triangles!").

It's really a case-by-case basis, and I would recommend that users use it as they see fit per match.


Maybe we should establish some rules on the method and use them to help people who don't understand the concept of Verse equalization to figure out when it best applies to their situation? That might help.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I say we establish types of powers and view them as congruent. if something draws on speritual energy we classify it as spiritual, if it draws on one's physical form we call it ki, if it draws on mental capacity we we call it ESP, etc... it's the same as saying that two people who can manipulate fire, can manipulate fire. As for limits on what can effect characters I say if something limits a character it's fine, but if it makes it impossible for one party to do anything that's rediculous

 

[GreatestSin]

Maybe we should establish some rules on the method and use them to help people who don't understand the concept of Verse equalization to figure out when it best applies to their situation?

i would think that too, a general "rules-list" to at least give some boundaries and not allow the OP to use verse-equiv in order to nerf a char horribly

i would say one of the "rules" should be that all abilitys of the char showed to the extend in his own verse are aviable even if they are conceptionally not the same, afterall think about the nerf of chars who have a limited and only in-verse usage of their powers being set against a enemy from a another verse

this is why i think that genjutsu=illusions/telepathy/etc is a good choice, of course a fight will be over if the enemy never showed resistance to such attacks since they dont exist in his verse, still, there is also the possibility to simply give the fight a scenario where genjutsu isnt allowed similar to soul-crush from bleach or conquerer-haki-one-shot-KO ^_^

 

[DontTalk]

I say we establish types of powers and view them as congruent. if something draws on speritual energy we classify it as spiritual, if it draws on one's physical form we call it ki, if it draws on mental capacity we we call it ESP, etc... it's the same as saying that two people who can manipulate fire, can manipulate fire. As for limits on what can effect characters I say if something limits a character it's fine, but if it makes it impossible for one party to do anything that's rediculous

I feel like that would result in some strange equalizations, like magic from one verse not being magic in another, just because it is explained slightly different.

It also means one has to have a explanation on the abilities. Devil fruits are a good example for an exception, because of that. Where do you sort them in?

Other problem is that just with that rule dragonball characters would be unable to see bleach characters for example.


And for everyone, just because I didn't mention it in this thread specifically, this isn't about rules on how it has to be equalized, but just how one should assume it to be done if not stated otherwise.

 

[GreatestSin]

And for everyone, just because I didn't mention it in this thread specifically, this isn't about rules on how it has to be equalized, but just how one should assume it to be done if not stated otherwise.

i know, this is why i used " by rules (it shouldnt be something that must be followed)

what i mean is that we could create a site which has a general guideline for the most obvious things (so that debates wont happen about that and wanking one char/verse and downplaying another char/verse is at least not that easy), like the "abilitys of chars"-part for example, and energy equiv (like: chakra = reitasu/reishi, mana, etc) ^_^

 

[DontTalk]

@GreatestSi: It wasn't directed on you, but really just a general note. (Some people asked in the other chat thread some time ago so I just wanted to make sure it really is clear.)

About the rules page... maybe just falls under "do not create spite threads" if it really just is about the worst cases.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

In the case of the Devil Fruits, you just figure out if each individual fruit has a power that interacts in a way similar to what the other Verse has dealt with.

The fruits themselves should probably be treated as magic items.

 

[GreatestSin]

@GreatestSi: It wasn't directed on you, but really just a general note. (Some people asked in the other chat thread some time ago so I just wanted to make sure it really is clear.)
About the rules page... maybe just falls under "do not create spite threads" if it really just is about the worst cases.

ah, well, i thought it was wierd that "everyone" was used XD

nah, than people would ask "what classifies as spite thread?", a page where the greatest boundaries are listed that make verse equiv as fair as possible,

if i can use lazyhunters example: takitsubo can interact with esper powers, even if her powers dont work against magic in toaru, i would ignore this in a verse vs verse fight, or maybe create 2 scenarios with each possible case (so that i dont nerf a char who had a arguable usable power but lost because of verse-mechanics ) ^_^