Various JoJo Questions (And the Scaling System)

[Arigarmy]

You never asked for more feats, you were just being specific on that one fight from TW. It seems somewhat unprepared to go in and not know most of what's already happened in the Parts, though, but that's my opinion. I think we've wrapped up Jotaro's talk, his durability seems to not have any changes necessary.

I want to go back to Jonathan's durability talk. I don't know if it's possible to scale Jonathan's dura to DIO's body from the neck-down, but I really do not recall much of Dio harming Jonathan outside of his Space Ripper Eye lasers in two instances.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I don't see how Part 3 is the only evidence we have when we not mention that but further after it like in Part 4....

Anyways, we still need to do talks of that i guess plus the talk on the ranges for the stands themselves. SP is pretty straightforward, being just 2 meters in effective range of melee with universal range of time stop. This should also be talked about for the others here for that at least tho but this one can be easily taken cared of.

 

[Arigarmy]

Yeah, Range is another good reason to ditch the system. For some reason Polnareff has... scaled Range? He's said it only exceeds a little over one meter in the manga, I don't know how you scale in Range.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well our actual main concerns are of AP and Dura. Hax is something we know so we don't have to bother with it. Range is something i feel may perhaps be something we should do about if somewhat a bit more minor than the AP and Dura thing.

 

[Arigarmy]

we can't do much on Part 5 and 6, and that Part 8 calc depends on the AP of that part specifically, so should we begin on the Part 3 and 4 characters?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I guess we can do two parts at a time for the stand users, i suppose.

Part 1 and 2 for those there seem....mmm, atm.

 

[LoudCloud]

I was always ready to admit that Part 4 had possible evidence of Jotaro's dura (which I wouldn't have been able to retaliate) but since people kept bringing up Part 3 stuff, I offered my counter-arguments to them. But it's obviously irrelevant now and I'm glad we can put that past us.

Anyway, part 1 and 2 seem ok for the most part but with a few confusing things.

I guess DIO's AP/Durability scales to Jotaro's durability (based on the virtue that he is a vampire and Jotaro is human?), which scales to the World, which scales to Star Platinum.

Dio (part 1) scales to DIO for having a better body and Jonathan scales to him for slicing his limbs off. I'm not sure if this would also apply to Jonathan's durability.

Speedwagon and William Zeppeli seem fine to me.

The same goes for Joseph, Ceaser and the Pillarmen.

 

[Arigarmy]

Let's see, Kakyoin I think we should discuss first since he's not as powerful as the other Stand Users, or at least from what I can tell. He damaged Jotaro once from the Emerald Splash, but it could be one of those PIS moments, when in literally the next few seconds SP deflects it. Furthemore, DIO easily deflects it with one finger or more. So if we were to downgrade Hierophant's power, I'd downgrade it to Wall. Casually it can destroy a car and a portion of a tower.




However, I wouldn't agree to also changing Hierophant's Durability, because it also took a punch from The World with only minor damage as well as the beatdown from SP


Though if you don't agree and you think Kak's AP is higher, I wouldn't mind an argument.

 

[Naitez]

One thing that worries me is that does Diavolo still scale to Jotaro and Dio?

 

[Arigarmy]

They had no interaction, so no.

 

[Naitez]

That's what I thought. He never gets by anyone due to his hax and all statements about his power are specifically about his hax so determining his strength is tricky. I can't think of anything that would put him above Wall level since that's the minimum required to casually punch through someone and chop their hand through someone's shoulder.

 

[Arigarmy]

Actually, it might. Don't you remember that shit it did with Polnareff? Dude took out his entire arm and most of his body in one hit. His Dura does say Street, but also much higher in as well, could just be upgraded in general. Too bad nobody's fought on equal grounds with King Crimson physically. So that doesn't scale to any other Stands in Part 5 that I know of.

 

[Arigarmy]

Speaking of Part 5, the sad thing about that Part is that the Speed feats are also lacking. There's no statement shown about someone being the speed of light or faster than light that I know of. The only speed feat I found was a bullet-timing feat from Secco.


but my bullet speed knowledge is pretty lacking, so I don't know what a speed result would come from this.

 

[Naitez]

I forgot all about that. The problem, however, is that the only people we know that fought Diavolo and his King Crimson are characters that aren't scaled to Dio, Jotaro, and others.

edit: One thing's for sure about that bullet feat is that it's faster than sound at the very least.

 

[Arigarmy]

Polnareff does scale, though. He's gotten Vanilla Ice and DIO. But Diavolo's scaling only comes from AP, not a blitz or anything.

 

[LoudCloud]

Agreed on Hierophant Green (though he might have some better feats) and Polnareff. I think Jotaro mentioned that Hierophant Green only hurt SP because he wasn't focusing his stand properly and was coming into grips with using it (they also explained when fighting Avdol that you need to focus on your stand to use it to its proper potential).

Hierophant has only really harmed Tower of Gray (who's only street level, possibly wall level by feats) and the Lovers (who only showed below human feats).

But just so we're clear does DIO scale to Jotaro's durability (for being a vampire I guess) and do we assume Jonathan's Durability = His AP?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I think the stand rankings are pretty useless. We can accomplish just as much as it does just by using regular powerscaling. Especially when the rankings are extremely vague, like "Very good" or "Very bad" vague.

However I think they're only completely unreliable in Part 3, where every stand is given somewhat inferior stats to THE WORLD, which makes sense on paper, but Cream can erase matter upon contact and THE WORLD being superior that with raw punches and kicks makes no sense.

 

[LoudCloud]

Yeah, I think we already accepted that. It also didn't help that Araki only started using them while writing part 5 and he's infamous for not remembering the details of his past work. He could've easily overlooked the feats and fights the stands from part 3-4 had and just made the rankings up as he saw fit.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I think The World is supposed to be superior to it still given it's ability to stop time, so like maybe the moment Cream attacks, Dio can stop time and go ham on it.

At least that's how i think as Araki kind of made Dio's TW Time Stop act as some big deal....which it kind of still is but yeah in a regular battle where TW couldn't use it, i can see how Cream can be a more threatening stand than TW.

But eh, onto the actual discussion here.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

TW was given superior raw stats, though. I'm talking about Destructive Power and stuff; Cream being able to erase matter and still being physically inferior to TW is what confuses me.

 

[Arigarmy]

DIO is still Jonathan from the neck-down, and the AP should remain similar. As for Dura, I suppose so, but it might also scale back to Jonathan since it's his body, but I could be wrong.

Like I said, it appears only Diavolo and GER keep the High 8-C in Part 5, since KC did this to poor Polnareff years later and he somehow lived. Though no other Stand has fought/beaten King Crimson physically, so the rest should be Wall in AP. Not unless a stronger feat is found.

 

[LoudCloud]

There seems to be a problem with that. You say DIO's physical durability should be the same as Jonathan's due to having the same body. But Jonathan gets his durability from scaling to Dio (part 1) who gets his stats because he's supposedly superior to DIO (part 3). That is circular reasoning:

Part 3 DIO = Jonathan = Part 1 Dio Brando > Part 3 DIO = Jonathan = Part 1 Dio Brando > Part 3 Dio + Jonathan etc.

You're also implying that Jonathan's body on DIO = Jonathan's body when he was alive. But Jonathan's body when he was alive was able to stand up to Part 1 Dio, who Part 3 Dio claims is tougher than his current body (Jonathan's body). The only way that makes sense is if:

A) Jonathan's body on DIO is weaker than Jonathan's body when he was alive. Effectively stopping part 3 DIO from scaling to Jonathan. Or...

B) Jonathan doesn't scale to part 1 Dio Brando in the first place as part 3 DIO claims Jonathan's body is weaker than Dio's own body in part 1.

 

[LoudCloud]

Also, Star Platinum's powerscaling/feats are a bit of a mess right now, at least in terms of its explanation.

Recently he got downgraded from City Block level AP/Durabilty because the calc that showed it (the fog-inhaling one) had a mistake and when that mistake was fixed it only came out as Building level (despite this, Dio's profile still mentions the calc, which should have been removed). Since Magician's Red was Large Building AP due to a feat it had and Star Platinum is supposed to be superior to it, they scaled Star Platinum's AP to Magician's Red's AP. This is the part I have doubts about (at least in terms of its explanation).

The scaling between SP and MR was partially because MR has a B in power and SP has an A. But these rankings are no longer relevant.

And it was partially because they fought each other so they should logically scale. However, in that fight MR's AP is never really used in a way that SP would scale from. Throughout the fight Avdol never tries to harm or burn SP/Jotaro using his AP. He simply holds Jotaro in place with Red Bind and slowly starts to suffocate him. When SP is summoned he does choke MR, but that would only be comparing SP's AP to MR's durability* and not MR's AP.

(*and MR's durabilty is only Large Building currently because it's supposed to scale to SP's AP, who gets it from scaling with MR's AP which I just showed never did scale)

You could point out that Jotaro was just coming into grips with having a stand and didn't fight his best (that much is true) but that won't change the fact that SP and MR's AP were never scaled direcly. Now, there might be a stand that scales to MR's AP and that SP also scales to, but I'm not too sure. The only other stands Avdol fights is Judgement, who MR curbstomps with ease and doesn't scale to any other stands anyway (unless you count it manhandling Silver Chariot so easily it's not funny), and Silver Chariot.

There might be something in the Silver Chariot fight that scales them but I do remember Polnareff claiming he could stop and deflect MR's fire because his sword can create spaces in air that disperse the flames (which shouldn't make them scale since MR's feat shows us it gets its AP from the sheer heat of its flames and not contact force and Silver Chariot stops/deflects its flames in a way that uses a pushing force and avoids its heat) and when Silver Chariot gets hit square-on, it only survives because it can remove its armour to avoid most burns (with JoJo's crew claiming that Silver Chariot should've been destroyed otherwise).

I think there's definetely some stuff in that fight that could scale them though. If anyone finds it, please mention it.

I should say that the idea of Magician's Red being above all other stands in terms of AP (in Part 3 at least), is not that far fetched. Avdol is confident he can win any fight he ends up in (telling Jotaro he could've used MR's fire to stop SP's attack if it carried on fighting, completely decimating Judgment like it's nothing while acting playful about it etc.) and he's usually a pretty humble guy.

 

[Antvasima]

LoudCloud does seem to make some good points.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I'm on agreement with LoudCloud as well.

 

[LoudCloud]

We should all keep in mind that Jojo is a verse where hax and ridiculously circumstancial strategies reign supreme in a fight, so we have to be cautious and very specific when powerscaling. We should try saying "Stand 1 took a direct punch from Stand 2" as opposed to just "Stand 1 fought Stand 2" or "Stand 1 should scale to Stand 2" in profiles and discussions.

 

[Arigarmy]

So the idea is to keep Avdol and High 8-C and keep everyone else below that? If everyone agrees with that, that'd be fine. So SP and TW would end up being what, 8-C?

 

[Naitez]

That would bring up this question. Would a time stop from those Stands be enough to beat Avdol if they're weaker?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Ari: If we're to keep stand rankings completely off, it seems so. I don't mind it. Plus i think another thing is that Avdol's stand feat was done with it's abilities honestly. IIRC, he never got his stand into an actual physical HTH combat before. He's only fought with using his abilities so technically i think Avdol would be superior to SP through it's stand abilities, not physical strength as, in the world of JJBA, physical might isn't the only thing one can use to win a fight (assuming it's a fairly strong stand with some good hax of it's own).

And yeah, they would be 8-C going by Xcano's recent downgrade of it i believe.

 

[Arigarmy]

I recall Magician's Red getting physical numerous times. I believe it severly damaged Judgement by kicking it once. I also remember it using its fist occassionally in the manga.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Ah. I still find it hard to say of how physically powerful it is since, again, we're going off-stand rankings completely and just going by pure feats and powerscaling here so...

 

[Arigarmy]

If we still scale AP to Durability, Judgement was described as being as powerful, fast, and percise as Silver Chariot, and also gave Magician's Red a run for its money. Its dirt zombies also damaged Polnareff if we go off of him living DIO and King Crimson, and Magician's Red OHK'd them.









NOTE: Judgement didn't explode if that's what you imagine it to be, he just vanished with a poof. The Stand was never destroyed in the arc.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Those are pretty good to use here.

 

[Arigarmy]

AN also talked about a feat in Part 4 where RHCP steals Okuyasu's body and takes him through a ground wire to electrocute/kill him. Koichi confirms that RHCP moves at Lightspeed later in the arc, and Crazy Diamond did the following below before RHCP could completely kill Okuyasu.




Would this be a FTL feat for Crazy Diamond? He was the one who brought this feat up, and I had just remembered that it happened.

 

[Naitez]

I thought Crazy Diamond already scales to Star Platinum, who scales to Silver Chariot.

 

[Arigarmy]

Crazy Diamond never blitzed Star Platinum. And even if it did scale, this would be a solid feat, there's no harm in ganing any. And if it is a legitimate feat, it also backs up Jotaro's FTL reactions.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

It's definitely at least a Relativistic+ feat.

And the fact that Polnareff was able to tell HM was moving at the speed of light should account for some reactions as well. Same with Koichi.

 

[Arigarmy]

Just to make this clear, are we still downgrading Chariot, or does it have any justifiable means of staying where it is?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

In speed or in AP/Dura? To me, he looks alright as is. Or maybe we should change up something about it i guess?

Another thing to note is that if/since we are going to downgrade SP to just Building level, that may give us to having TW, DIO, and Jotaro's dura to building level. Which if we do so on Dio, that actually kind of makes it on line with how Tarkus is Building level yet Dio being stated to be more powerful than him....yeah?

 

[Arigarmy]

AP/Dura, specifically AP because with armor on Chariot is tougher.

Also you lost me Cross on that second paragraph. On having to downgrade DIO and TW? Yeah. If you're saying it doesn't make sense because Dio > Tarkus, we can always say At least Building IIRC.