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Various JoJo Questions (And the Scaling System)
- Thread starter Arigarmy
- Start date
- Status
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Seems about Wall level right now. But I'm sure it'd get scaled to something more impressive if we look around.
As for Anubis, I imagine he would be something like
"At least Wall level initially (kept up with Silver Chariot), increases to Large Building eventually (harmed Star Platinum), increases to much higher over time (progresively gets stronger the more it fights)."
Or maybe just sepperate it into the different people it possesed (Chaka, Khan and Polnareff), give it their sepperate stat and end with "increases to much higher over time (progressively gets stronger the more it fights).
As for Anubis, I imagine he would be something like
"At least Wall level initially (kept up with Silver Chariot), increases to Large Building eventually (harmed Star Platinum), increases to much higher over time (progresively gets stronger the more it fights)."
Or maybe just sepperate it into the different people it possesed (Chaka, Khan and Polnareff), give it their sepperate stat and end with "increases to much higher over time (progressively gets stronger the more it fights).
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Couldn't Polnareff scale to DIO? He survived a hit from DIO and also damaged him
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I could've sworn that Polnareff sneak attacked DIO in the manga
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I can't find the specific page of Polnareff stabbing Dio but there are ones of Polnareff on the ground unconscious facing Dio. The website probably just has some pages missing.
Do these discussions of the new Jojo powerscaling belong here or should we move them to a different thread?
Do these discussions of the new Jojo powerscaling belong here or should we move them to a different thread?
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The scene was also in a text cutscene(Textscene?) in All Star Battle
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I think this would be a good time to bring up some scaling issues I've seen with Jojo. Some of these have been adressed by JustSomeWeirdo on previous threads but they tend to go inactive before the discussion comes to an agreement.
1. Does DIO actually tank SP's attacks? Because iirc they tend to maim DIO heavily (holes through his body, detached limbs etc.) before he regenerates. Coming back from SP's attacks seems more like a Regenerationn feat than a durability one.
2. Should character who use Hamon scale to characters who are weak to hamon (Vampires, Pillarmen etc.)? Using hamon against them is a form of hax since it's using a biological weakness to destroy them as opposed to pure physical AP.
We've seen Jonathan harm vampires without hamon (cutting Dio with his sword) thereby justifying the scaling of his AP to Dio's Durability. But I don't remember him taking hits from Dio as his profile claims so would his durabilty really scale to Dio's AP?
There's also no instance I recall of Joseph or Ceaser using pure AP to harm Vampires or Pillarmen. They only ever used hamon iirc, meaning they shouldn't really scale in AP/Durability.
1. Does DIO actually tank SP's attacks? Because iirc they tend to maim DIO heavily (holes through his body, detached limbs etc.) before he regenerates. Coming back from SP's attacks seems more like a Regenerationn feat than a durability one.
2. Should character who use Hamon scale to characters who are weak to hamon (Vampires, Pillarmen etc.)? Using hamon against them is a form of hax since it's using a biological weakness to destroy them as opposed to pure physical AP.
We've seen Jonathan harm vampires without hamon (cutting Dio with his sword) thereby justifying the scaling of his AP to Dio's Durability. But I don't remember him taking hits from Dio as his profile claims so would his durabilty really scale to Dio's AP?
There's also no instance I recall of Joseph or Ceaser using pure AP to harm Vampires or Pillarmen. They only ever used hamon iirc, meaning they shouldn't really scale in AP/Durability.
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- Thread starter
- #51
1. Regenerationn is just Regenerationn, it doesn't buff your durability IIRC. DIO still survives the attacks from SP regardless. What saved DIO wasn't his regen necessarily, it was being thrown into Joseph to suck his blood and regen faster.
2. Joseph breaks Kars' bone blade. Yeah he used hamon but physically he still broke through the blade.
2. Joseph breaks Kars' bone blade. Yeah he used hamon but physically he still broke through the blade.
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1. I guess you have a point... sorta... I'm still a little confused (I'm not very used to discussing characters who can regen).
My point is that DIO gets punched around like a rag doll every time SP hits him and we see visible damage that would most probably kill DIO if it wasn't for his Regenerationn. Whatever part of DIO's body SP punches ends up with a hole or completely missing. That doesn't sound like physical durability to me. DIO's body is clearly uncapable of withstanding SP's strength and he only comes back every time due to regen. So it seems dishonest to say he was able to withstand multiple punches from SP the same way it'd be dishonest to say Wolverine being hit by the Hulk, having a hole in his chest and Regenerationn from it is withstanding the attack.
2. Kars' bone blades are biological. They are made from his own bones and are a specific form of the Pillarmen's body manipulation ability. So hamon should have the same effect on it as on the Pillarman's body. Hamon completely destroys a vampiric being's body, whether it's a zombie, vampire or pillarman, hence why it melts away their entire bodies and doesn't leave their bones behind.
My point is that DIO gets punched around like a rag doll every time SP hits him and we see visible damage that would most probably kill DIO if it wasn't for his Regenerationn. Whatever part of DIO's body SP punches ends up with a hole or completely missing. That doesn't sound like physical durability to me. DIO's body is clearly uncapable of withstanding SP's strength and he only comes back every time due to regen. So it seems dishonest to say he was able to withstand multiple punches from SP the same way it'd be dishonest to say Wolverine being hit by the Hulk, having a hole in his chest and Regenerationn from it is withstanding the attack.
2. Kars' bone blades are biological. They are made from his own bones and are a specific form of the Pillarmen's body manipulation ability. So hamon should have the same effect on it as on the Pillarman's body. Hamon completely destroys a vampiric being's body, whether it's a zombie, vampire or pillarman, hence why it melts away their entire bodies and doesn't leave their bones behind.
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1. The same could be said for Jotaro getting the shit beat out of him by The World; same Stand, remember? The man took a barrage, then a steamroller, then a kick, and killed DIO. DIO was physically stronger than Jotaro if it wasn't already told. Is Jotaro now stronger and tougher than DIO physically? DIO's Dura also equals Jonathan's Dura from the neck-down.
2. It's didn't "melt" Kars. It blew up his arm, but that was about it.
Joseph still broke down the blade and made it snap, which sent Hamon inside of Kars. It never melted or anything, but it did break down. There was also the clacker vollery instance; I believe if it didn't have Hamon in it at all, the least it would do is just scar Wamuu's face without the Hamon prolonging the damage. I could be wrong, though.
2. It's didn't "melt" Kars. It blew up his arm, but that was about it.
Joseph still broke down the blade and made it snap, which sent Hamon inside of Kars. It never melted or anything, but it did break down. There was also the clacker vollery instance; I believe if it didn't have Hamon in it at all, the least it would do is just scar Wamuu's face without the Hamon prolonging the damage. I could be wrong, though.
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1. Are you trying to scale Jotaro's own dura to the World's AP?
I've also already questioned Jonathan's durabilty.
2. Hamon doesn't exactly "melt" a vampiric being's body, disintegration is the word I'm looking for. And that blade looks like it was disintegrated where Joseph hit it. It's really no different to most of the other times where a vampiric being was damaged by a hamon attack.
I've also already questioned Jonathan's durabilty.
2. Hamon doesn't exactly "melt" a vampiric being's body, disintegration is the word I'm looking for. And that blade looks like it was disintegrated where Joseph hit it. It's really no different to most of the other times where a vampiric being was damaged by a hamon attack.
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1. Why shouldn't Jotaro have his Dura scaled from taking hits from The World?
2.The blade was knocked off of Kars, as seen in the bottom right panel of the first page, as well as the top panel of the page in the post before that
2.The blade was knocked off of Kars, as seen in the bottom right panel of the first page, as well as the top panel of the page in the post before that
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1. Fair enough if you guys want to discuss that but I'm sure Large Building durability Jojo stand users would distabilise the scaling of the whole series. Would every stand user scale? Would a stand that harms Jotaro also be Large Building? Would that include humans who hurt Jotaro?
Seems a lot more sensible to say Dio was holding back in order to toy with Jotaro and show-off his improved time stop ability (which is what his dialogue implied).
2. Just because it was knocked off doesn't mean Hamon wasn't responsible for damaging it. He disintigrated the blade with hamon where he hit it and that caused the rest of the blade to go flying since the hamon had sepperated it. Just like Joseph used hamon on Wammu's knees, causing the rest of his legs to fly off.
Seems a lot more sensible to say Dio was holding back in order to toy with Jotaro and show-off his improved time stop ability (which is what his dialogue implied).
2. Just because it was knocked off doesn't mean Hamon wasn't responsible for damaging it. He disintigrated the blade with hamon where he hit it and that caused the rest of the blade to go flying since the hamon had sepperated it. Just like Joseph used hamon on Wammu's knees, causing the rest of his legs to fly off.
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1. Regular humans hurting Jotaro is PIS, he has taken several hits from much stronger Stands, and yes, DIO was trying to toy with Jotaro quite a bit in their fight until he found out that he could move within frozen time, he only then got a little bit bothered by Jotaro's ability to move within his world of frozen time, which is when I started actually trying to kill Jotaro and even make sure that he is dead, even with a knife hitting his forehead
2. Jonathan cut Dio in Half with Luck&Pluck, Jonathan punched Dio in the face (you could even see the impact of the punch), Jonathan stabbed Dio's head with shrapnel from the boat after he was no longer able to use Hamon, Joseph took hits and even physically damaged Straizo, Joseph took hits from Santana (He had only resisted being absorbed because of Hamon), Joseph broke through Wammu's head with a clacker, Joseph took hits from Wammu, Joseph took hits from Esidisi, Joseph broke Kars' arm blade and Hamon then passed through the rest of the blade AND THEN the Hamon started damaging Kars (You can see this as his arm seems perfectly fine for a moment and then sudden starts taking damage)
2. Jonathan cut Dio in Half with Luck&Pluck, Jonathan punched Dio in the face (you could even see the impact of the punch), Jonathan stabbed Dio's head with shrapnel from the boat after he was no longer able to use Hamon, Joseph took hits and even physically damaged Straizo, Joseph took hits from Santana (He had only resisted being absorbed because of Hamon), Joseph broke through Wammu's head with a clacker, Joseph took hits from Wammu, Joseph took hits from Esidisi, Joseph broke Kars' arm blade and Hamon then passed through the rest of the blade AND THEN the Hamon started damaging Kars (You can see this as his arm seems perfectly fine for a moment and then sudden starts taking damage)
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1. So Jotaro being harmed by everything under the sun is PIS but surviving the World isn't?
Dio's dialogue when he's about to hit Jotaro with the World is mostly him showing off how cool his powers are and how superior he is. The type of dialogue villains use when toying with their opponent. After hitting Jotaro around, he says that's when he'll use his final attack.
2. Yes I agree that Jonathan scales to Dio, but I'm arguing about Joseph and Ceaser here. I looked back on the manga and there is an instance of Joseph hitting Straizo with his gun and making him bleed (with no hamon) and one of him being sent flying by Santana's attack. So that settles it then. Some of ypur other examples don't really hold true but that's beside the point at this stage.
Dio's dialogue when he's about to hit Jotaro with the World is mostly him showing off how cool his powers are and how superior he is. The type of dialogue villains use when toying with their opponent. After hitting Jotaro around, he says that's when he'll use his final attack.
2. Yes I agree that Jonathan scales to Dio, but I'm arguing about Joseph and Ceaser here. I looked back on the manga and there is an instance of Joseph hitting Straizo with his gun and making him bleed (with no hamon) and one of him being sent flying by Santana's attack. So that settles it then. Some of ypur other examples don't really hold true but that's beside the point at this stage.
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1. Jotaro being hit by a regular human being with no special capabilities whatsoever is DEFINITELY PIS, Jotaro being damaged by Stands mean that they scale to Jotaro's Durability, if I have a character take SEVERAL hits and have a fight with a planet level character for multiple chapters, as well as having fought other planet busters in the past, but if they are not implied to have gotten stronger and City busters have also damaged said character, it means they have only been damaged due to PIS, Jotaro has been damaged by The World, Killer Queen, Crazy Diamond, Magician's Red (Who even has a Large Building level feat), and Anubis (Which could harm Polnareff, who took hits from Magician's Red and DIO), for example.
DIO had regained confidence in battling Jotaro after taking Joseph's blood, up until this point, he had been afraid of Jotaro's ability to move in frozen time and resorted to using knives, using a cop to make sure that Jotaro is dead, and even after that using a sign to make sure that Jotaro is definitely dead, and DIO even tried running away to escape Jotaro by stopping time and grabbing onto a car so he could get Jotaro to hit him into Joseph, so he could take his blood and become even stronger than before, he only started toying with Jotaro because he believe himself to be all powerful and unbeatable at this point, instances in which Jotaro is damaged by significantly weaker beings should not be deemed as anything more than PIS as they contradict his most common feats
2. Well, with Joseph being on par with the Pillar Men and Caesar being on par with Joseph, they should definitely scale to them
DIO had regained confidence in battling Jotaro after taking Joseph's blood, up until this point, he had been afraid of Jotaro's ability to move in frozen time and resorted to using knives, using a cop to make sure that Jotaro is dead, and even after that using a sign to make sure that Jotaro is definitely dead, and DIO even tried running away to escape Jotaro by stopping time and grabbing onto a car so he could get Jotaro to hit him into Joseph, so he could take his blood and become even stronger than before, he only started toying with Jotaro because he believe himself to be all powerful and unbeatable at this point, instances in which Jotaro is damaged by significantly weaker beings should not be deemed as anything more than PIS as they contradict his most common feats
2. Well, with Joseph being on par with the Pillar Men and Caesar being on par with Joseph, they should definitely scale to them
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1. Jotaro hadn't fought any Large Building level enemies before that. At least none that actively hit him. I can't speak for Part 4 stands as I haven't got to that part yet but the examples you name for Part 3 are clearly wrong or exaggerated. Magician's Red never harmed Jotaro directly, he simply held him in place and started suffocated him by removing the oxygen around him. While Anubis did impale Jotaro, he didn't technically resist the attack either. He was impaled by it slightly before SP broke the sword before it could go any deeper.
And he avoided all of the World's hits throughout the entire fight up until the last few moments where the World punched and kicked him a few times. You're definitely exaggerating Jotaro as someone who regularly tanks Large Building attacks when it only ever happened once (at least in Part 3). So it's wrong to call it his "most common feats".
What you said about Dio only supports my point. When Dio was desperate to harm Jotaro, Jotaro managed to successfully avoid all of his attacks. But when Dio was more relaxed and prone to toying with his opponent is the only time we see Jotaro being hit by him. Then when Dio gets serious again and says he's doing his final attack, Jotaro manages to avoid his attacks again.
2. Yep.
And he avoided all of the World's hits throughout the entire fight up until the last few moments where the World punched and kicked him a few times. You're definitely exaggerating Jotaro as someone who regularly tanks Large Building attacks when it only ever happened once (at least in Part 3). So it's wrong to call it his "most common feats".
What you said about Dio only supports my point. When Dio was desperate to harm Jotaro, Jotaro managed to successfully avoid all of his attacks. But when Dio was more relaxed and prone to toying with his opponent is the only time we see Jotaro being hit by him. Then when Dio gets serious again and says he's doing his final attack, Jotaro manages to avoid his attacks again.
2. Yep.
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Part 4 Jotaro is no longer in his prime but has still survived hits from Large Building level Stands, and saying that Anubis only impaled Jotaro because he didn't resist doesn't make sense, Kid Goku didn't attempt to resist bullets but they still didn't do much damage, and Silver Chariot + Anubis was also still capable of fighting on par with Star Platinum, both Stands being Large Building level via scaling, The World and Star Platinum were ALSO shown to be equal to eachother and even the same type of Stand, him taking Large Building level hits are DEFINITELY his most common feats as he is only rarely attacked by regular people, In fact, in Part 4 he got hit by Crazy Diamond after he made Josuke angry by talking about his hair (albeit unintentionally), and even taking a powered up explosion from Sheer Heart Attack, and only ending up unconscious for a short while and even able to fight Kira with the wounds from the same explosion
Jotaro has only been damaged by regular people TWICE that I can recall (Once when the nurse jabbed a pen into him, which barely did anything anyway, and another time when he was forced to do what Steely Dan said), and I have listed 4 instances in whch Jotaro takes Large Building level hits, The World, Anubis, Crazy Diamond, and Sheer Heart Attack (the latter of which being powered up)
Jotaro has only been damaged by regular people TWICE that I can recall (Once when the nurse jabbed a pen into him, which barely did anything anyway, and another time when he was forced to do what Steely Dan said), and I have listed 4 instances in whch Jotaro takes Large Building level hits, The World, Anubis, Crazy Diamond, and Sheer Heart Attack (the latter of which being powered up)
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What I meant by Anubis' sword "not being resisted" is that it didn't go deep enough to be considered an actual durability feat. It got impaled into Jotaro but not enough to do any serious damage. If a sword was planet level but only impaled you a bit (not enough to damage your organs) and you survived, it wouldn't really scale because the sword isn't being used properly. Similarly a planet-level bullet that only scrapes your arm isn't a durability feat either because it wouldn't have killed you regardless of AP. Now you might say that the reason for it not going deep enough was because Jotaro's body was very durable but actually it was because Star Plantium had taken most of the force of the sword before it was in Jotaro. We see Anubis stabs SP when he's in front of Jotaro. SP gets impaled, dissapears due to taking too much damage and the sword ends up near Jotaro's stomach. It's an SP durabilty feat rather than a Jotaro one.
Also, the fight where Jotaro takes hits from the World is also the fight where we see Jotaro and Dio randomly fly around like superheroes which is never mentioned, explained or referenced in Jojo again. So I'm inclined to take similarly questionable, unexplained, one-off occurences that happen in fights (such as Jotaro taking hits from the World once) as outliers.
If what you say about Part 4 is true then so be it. But I think that deserves an entirely sepperate thread to discuss it since it's such a big deal for the Jojo-verse. It would change how we rank and scale most stand users.
Keep in mind that having stand users with Large Building durability (the highest physical AP of any stand) would undermine the entire premise of the "attacking the stand user rather than the stand" strategy that is so often used and mentioned in Jojo. If human stand users could be as durable as stands are strong, it would devalue the idea that human stand users are more vunerable than their stands which is something repeated throughout Jojo.
Also, the fight where Jotaro takes hits from the World is also the fight where we see Jotaro and Dio randomly fly around like superheroes which is never mentioned, explained or referenced in Jojo again. So I'm inclined to take similarly questionable, unexplained, one-off occurences that happen in fights (such as Jotaro taking hits from the World once) as outliers.
If what you say about Part 4 is true then so be it. But I think that deserves an entirely sepperate thread to discuss it since it's such a big deal for the Jojo-verse. It would change how we rank and scale most stand users.
Keep in mind that having stand users with Large Building durability (the highest physical AP of any stand) would undermine the entire premise of the "attacking the stand user rather than the stand" strategy that is so often used and mentioned in Jojo. If human stand users could be as durable as stands are strong, it would devalue the idea that human stand users are more vunerable than their stands which is something repeated throughout Jojo.
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What's so impressive about JJBA is it's hax, some Stands have an ability that the protagonists aren't currently prepared to deal with so they have to get to the user and defeat them instead, so the point of Stand Users having such dura isn't even really a point at all.
If anything, just the parts of Jotaro and DIO flying should be the outliers, not the entire fight just because of one small part of it, it's like saying that Goku didn't turn into a Great Ape during the first tournament arc at all just because Roshi blowing up the moon is an outlier, Jotaro and DIO didn't only fight in the air flying, they had a good portion of the fight on the ground.
I mean, I guess Goku should just be street level in durability at best just because a bullet scratched him despite EVERY SINGLE OTHER FEAT, INCLUDING HIS CHILD FEATS, have clearly shown OTHERWISE.
Jotaro has still taken these Large Building level hits, and they happen more often than these PIS low-ends of being damaged by REGULAR people, logically speaking any Stand would solo the entire verse and obliterate everyone, but go ahead, let's just give every character in JJBA Average Human level stats for themselves, and keep all of the Stands as being so high that it's actually impossible for the users to survive a single hit, just because of 2 PIS moments, and lets downgrade every higher dimensional being for being defeated in an outlier or by PIS
If anything, just the parts of Jotaro and DIO flying should be the outliers, not the entire fight just because of one small part of it, it's like saying that Goku didn't turn into a Great Ape during the first tournament arc at all just because Roshi blowing up the moon is an outlier, Jotaro and DIO didn't only fight in the air flying, they had a good portion of the fight on the ground.
I mean, I guess Goku should just be street level in durability at best just because a bullet scratched him despite EVERY SINGLE OTHER FEAT, INCLUDING HIS CHILD FEATS, have clearly shown OTHERWISE.
Jotaro has still taken these Large Building level hits, and they happen more often than these PIS low-ends of being damaged by REGULAR people, logically speaking any Stand would solo the entire verse and obliterate everyone, but go ahead, let's just give every character in JJBA Average Human level stats for themselves, and keep all of the Stands as being so high that it's actually impossible for the users to survive a single hit, just because of 2 PIS moments, and lets downgrade every higher dimensional being for being defeated in an outlier or by PIS
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There are plenty of times where characters resort to harming stand users because their stands have stats that are too high (Yellow Temperence's durability, the Sun's AP etc.).
I mean to say that Jojo has many one-off occurences that are unexplained and inconsistent with what we usually see. So it's within reason to categorise them as outliers if it contradicts against the bigger Jojo canon. I was using Jotaro and Dio flying as an (extreme) example.
The examples of Jotaro being harmed by normal humans is also an (extreme) example of Jotaro being harmed by something far lesser than the World. I'm also talking about the times he was harmed by far weaker stands. So far you have named one legit instance of Jotaro taking Large Building hits (the World) and the others are misleading examples. That means there is less examples of him taking Large Building hits than there is of Jotaro being harmed by normal humans (2>1) and certainly less than all the times he was harmed by far weaker stands. It seems to me like him being hit by the World is the PIS moment here and not the numerous times he was harmed by lesser things.
We're not comparing a few instances of far weaker durabilty to numerous instances of far higher durabilty. We're doing the opposite; comparing numerous instances of far weaker durabilty to one instance of far higher durabilty. That's what an outlier is.
But as you've stated, if Jotaro really does do this again in Part 4 multiple times then by all means start a thread on it.
I mean to say that Jojo has many one-off occurences that are unexplained and inconsistent with what we usually see. So it's within reason to categorise them as outliers if it contradicts against the bigger Jojo canon. I was using Jotaro and Dio flying as an (extreme) example.
The examples of Jotaro being harmed by normal humans is also an (extreme) example of Jotaro being harmed by something far lesser than the World. I'm also talking about the times he was harmed by far weaker stands. So far you have named one legit instance of Jotaro taking Large Building hits (the World) and the others are misleading examples. That means there is less examples of him taking Large Building hits than there is of Jotaro being harmed by normal humans (2>1) and certainly less than all the times he was harmed by far weaker stands. It seems to me like him being hit by the World is the PIS moment here and not the numerous times he was harmed by lesser things.
We're not comparing a few instances of far weaker durabilty to numerous instances of far higher durabilty. We're doing the opposite; comparing numerous instances of far weaker durabilty to one instance of far higher durabilty. That's what an outlier is.
But as you've stated, if Jotaro really does do this again in Part 4 multiple times then by all means start a thread on it.
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So just because there's outliers within a fight the fight itself has never happened, and Anubis would need to be Large Building level itself to even pierce through Star Platinum, meaning it would have to be Large Building level unless you want to call the entire Anubis fight an outlier. And we ARE taking VERY few instances of FAR WEAKER durability to even MORE INSTANCES OF FAR HIGHER durability, I have listed 4 examples off of the top of my head as opposed to the 2 examples of this low end in the ENTIRE SERIES
Calling the most common instances of a characters feats as nothing more than PIS is downplaying, it's like saying Goku is weaker than his child self just for being hurt by a bullet once, unless you want to argue that every single profile is wanked for not using PIS moments for scaling
Calling the most common instances of a characters feats as nothing more than PIS is downplaying, it's like saying Goku is weaker than his child self just for being hurt by a bullet once, unless you want to argue that every single profile is wanked for not using PIS moments for scaling
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I'm using Jotaro and Dio flying as an example of an outlier in a Jojo fight, because it's something inconsistent and unexplained that is best left ignored. I'm not saying the fight never happened in canon, but there might be certain things in said fight that go against what we see in Jojo and could be treated as an outlier.
Yes, Anubis would have to be Large Building level to pierce SP. But we're not discussing Anubis' AP. We're discussing Jotaro's Durability and I pointed out how Jotaro being stabbed by Anubis is not a direct durabilty feat for him because SP was the one who stopped the attack.
Jotaro being harmed by humans isn't my main point here, I've already made that clear, it's also the numerous times where far weaker stands harmed him too. Let's lay it down:
Times Jotaro was harmed by beings with far less than Large Building AP: 2 humans + the numerous weak Stands that harmed him.
Time Jotaro was harmed by beings with Large Building AP: 1 Stand (the World*)
(*At least that I'm aware of. If what you say about Part 4 is true then by all means make a thread about it.)
So clearly it's the Large Building feat that's the outlier here since it's vastly rarer (1 occurence) than the times weaker things harmed Jotaro (at least a handful of occurences).
Goku got hurt by a bullet ONCE, Jotaro got hurt by weak stands MULTIPLE times (far more often than the World hitting him).
You're comparing a character (Goku) with a track record of tanking blows from Planet level or higher beings and one occurence of being hurt by a bullet VS a character (Jotaro) with a track record of being hurt by weaker stands and one occurence of surviving Large Building attacks.
Do you not see how there's a big difference here?
Yes, Anubis would have to be Large Building level to pierce SP. But we're not discussing Anubis' AP. We're discussing Jotaro's Durability and I pointed out how Jotaro being stabbed by Anubis is not a direct durabilty feat for him because SP was the one who stopped the attack.
Jotaro being harmed by humans isn't my main point here, I've already made that clear, it's also the numerous times where far weaker stands harmed him too. Let's lay it down:
Times Jotaro was harmed by beings with far less than Large Building AP: 2 humans + the numerous weak Stands that harmed him.
Time Jotaro was harmed by beings with Large Building AP: 1 Stand (the World*)
(*At least that I'm aware of. If what you say about Part 4 is true then by all means make a thread about it.)
So clearly it's the Large Building feat that's the outlier here since it's vastly rarer (1 occurence) than the times weaker things harmed Jotaro (at least a handful of occurences).
Goku got hurt by a bullet ONCE, Jotaro got hurt by weak stands MULTIPLE times (far more often than the World hitting him).
You're comparing a character (Goku) with a track record of tanking blows from Planet level or higher beings and one occurence of being hurt by a bullet VS a character (Jotaro) with a track record of being hurt by weaker stands and one occurence of surviving Large Building attacks.
Do you not see how there's a big difference here?
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If these "weaker" Stands have harmed Jotaro then they SCALE TO HIS DURABILITY. That's simply just how scaling WORKS, I have listed 4 instances of Jotaro being hit by Large Building level Stands OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, and the 2 instances of Jotaro being damaged by regular people, is LOWER IN QUANTITY and PIS because these REGULAR PEOPLE have no special characteristics WHATSOEVER and are potrayed as nothing more. You should probably read JJBA to see Jotaro taking more hits from Large Building level Stands than you have repeatedly said he has, you have completely ignored the feats that I have stated from Part 4 just because you never read it. I recommend that you read Part 4 and then come back to the thread, or at least read the first few chapters to find the durability feat from Jotaro being hit by Crazy Diamond, and perhaps skim through the JoJo wiki's page on the Sheer Heart Attack arc to find out about Jotaro's durability feat then, as it's around the halfway point in Part 4
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I'm really not gonna have Jotaro's Dura downgraded given his feats of him taking The Worlds punches and all that. He's staying where he is IMO and that's not gonna really change there at all.
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Hmm....still, didn't he quite take those punches from DIO's The World anyways? TW and SP are pretty equal stands, and DIO after getting stronger was clearly intent of destroying Jotaro that time, plus that Steamroller and final kick of his.
Unless we decide to have Jotaro just be a Street leveler which in turn is basically just asking for downgrading TW and, by extension, SP and any stand that has directly been about SP's level....
Unless we decide to have Jotaro just be a Street leveler which in turn is basically just asking for downgrading TW and, by extension, SP and any stand that has directly been about SP's level....
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Actually if we went with how Cloud is saying, we might as well put everyone at Unknown which is gonna put even more of a problem just because of Jotaro's Durability put into question like this for the past 50+ posts here.
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^Pretty much this, and it would happen just because Cloud ignored 2 feats and said Anubis stabbing Jotaro didn't count (pretty much), which would've just been downplaying the entire verse
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I've said that I'm not familiar with Part 4, so if you rely on info from Part 4 to justify Jotaro's durability then feel free to disregard me . I'm just discussing things from the point of view of Part 3, where I can only find one instance of Jotaro being hit by Large Building AP.
I didn't actually notice Jotaro had Large Building durability in his profile already, so I thought this was meant to be an upgrade for the verse.
I didn't actually notice Jotaro had Large Building durability in his profile already, so I thought this was meant to be an upgrade for the verse.
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@JSW: Exactly. And i think having those with just Unknown is bad as that means we, at an absolute worst, have to not have them on here. Even if deleting is not the case, we need to have something for them outside of PIS and outliers or whatever.
All i do know is that Jotaro's best dura feats, at least EoS of Part 3, were him taking hits here and there from The World. He took a swift kick (well that SP but given that Stands ands their users are like connected and all...), took a bloodlusted barrage, and then received one final TW kick from DIO.
I mean if anything, i can see Stands that has dealt damage to those like SP and/or Jotaro scaling. That's at least how i see of it. Also even IF Jotaro's stand wasn't Large Building, his stand still has feats that KKa/Gwyn(?) helped me calc'd that ranged from Small Building to i believe Building level, and TW was still able to be even with it and all....and then the above.
All i do know is that Jotaro's best dura feats, at least EoS of Part 3, were him taking hits here and there from The World. He took a swift kick (well that SP but given that Stands ands their users are like connected and all...), took a bloodlusted barrage, and then received one final TW kick from DIO.
I mean if anything, i can see Stands that has dealt damage to those like SP and/or Jotaro scaling. That's at least how i see of it. Also even IF Jotaro's stand wasn't Large Building, his stand still has feats that KKa/Gwyn(?) helped me calc'd that ranged from Small Building to i believe Building level, and TW was still able to be even with it and all....and then the above.
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Even then Jotaro would scale to Anubis, who would scale to Polnareff, who would scale to Magician's Red's Large Building level feat, and then the verse would be Large Building level anyways
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Jotaro wouldn't scale to Anubis directly because he relied on SP to block Anubis' attack.
Polnareff doesn't scale to Anubis (the version Jotaro fought) because that version was possesing Silver Chariot and making it stronger, as opposed to the version of Anubis Polnareff fought which was possesing a normal human and making him stronger. (Anubis and Silver Chariot > Anubis and human)
Is any of this conversation relevant anymore? I pretty much admited Jotaro's durability makes sense. But I really don't understnad the points you guys are making now. Like pointing out Dio was serious about killing Jotario because of the Road Roller and final kick even though I pointed out he did those things after he claimed he would try to finish Jotaro off finally.
Polnareff doesn't scale to Anubis (the version Jotaro fought) because that version was possesing Silver Chariot and making it stronger, as opposed to the version of Anubis Polnareff fought which was possesing a normal human and making him stronger. (Anubis and Silver Chariot > Anubis and human)
Is any of this conversation relevant anymore? I pretty much admited Jotaro's durability makes sense. But I really don't understnad the points you guys are making now. Like pointing out Dio was serious about killing Jotario because of the Road Roller and final kick even though I pointed out he did those things after he claimed he would try to finish Jotaro off finally.
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Alright, we should probably either keep this open to discuss the feats of Stands individually though, to avoid putting them all at Unknown if they didn't fight a Stand that fought Star Platinum, a stand that fought a Stand that Fought Star Platinum, and so on, for when we finally stop using Stand Rankings to scale their AP, Dura, and Speed all together
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You're unfamiliar with Part 4? No offense, but you need to be caught up with all Parts Jotaro is in (4 and 6) if you're going to argue that Jotaro didn't take anything similar if he was appearing in other arcs. There's also the instance with Sheer Heart Attack that I'll show now since you're also not all informed on Jotaro. It exceeds SP's Dura and lands a hit on him.
Josuke didn't heal him right after this, though, he still had that moment where he got up and ORA'd Kira. Then he was healed.
From what I can tell, Loud got confused and doesn't know much about Jotaro's other feats from the other Parts to begin with. Jotaro's Dura should still be the same, then.
Josuke didn't heal him right after this, though, he still had that moment where he got up and ORA'd Kira. Then he was healed.
From what I can tell, Loud got confused and doesn't know much about Jotaro's other feats from the other Parts to begin with. Jotaro's Dura should still be the same, then.
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I've said multiple times that if Part 4 is really that relevant to justifying Jotaro's durability that you can feel free to dismiss me. But since people kept insisting that Part 3 had enough evidence to justify it, I carried on arguing.
People kept saying wrong stuff about the fight with Anubis and Magician's Red so I pointed it out.
People kept saying wrong stuff about the fight with Anubis and Magician's Red so I pointed it out.
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