Urban Warfare in the City of Eternal Nights Assassination 3 (Azurill vs Adepta Sororitas)

[First_Witch]

"A day has passed since a mysterious group of 16 individuals entered the forsaken Metropolis of decadence.
The quiet night of the central banks is where our fateful encounter happens.
A clash of Capos and Executives is upon us. Soon,
Death will occur upon these streets."
​

Note: A average Sister of Battle is used and her power weapons are restricted




























Sister of Battle:
Azurill:

 

[Psychomaster35]

Listing the AP values would be nice

 

[First_Witch]

Thats what you have debaters for silly

 

[The_Impress]

Azurill's 0.62 Tons

Adepta Sororitas'... actually impossible to find. Who the hell made these pages.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Sister is >>0.72 tons of tnt, idk about Azurill

 

[SamanPatou]

Can we even restrict power weapons, without turning this into a F&G match?
Is the power armor included among the power weapons?
And since their skill was a huge point of contention in the main thread, how skilled is the "average" sister?

 

[First_Witch]

Can we even restrict power weapons, without turning this into a F&G match?
Is the power armor included among the power weapons?
And since their skill was a huge point of contention in the main thread, how skilled is the "average" sister?

Power Weapons specificly are optional equippment, Power Armor not included. I would have no match if i did that lmao.

As for their skill, thats again, something your 40k Nerd will have to explain. I was told to specify that it is a average Sister, because they would have skillstomped 90% of the entire tournament

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Average sister of battle has been trained from an early age to be extremely proficient with weapons and firearms. They’re less skilled than a Space Marine and most have only a few dozen years of experience, but unless we’re talking the real hard core veterans they’re just a step or two above most irl combatants

 

[Psychomaster35]

Oof.

Though, Azurill can spam Charm 6 times to lower its opponent's attack to 25% the original, so its opponent's attack after the debuff should be 0.18 tons. Also, Bubble Beam may lower Sororitas' speed if it hits, reducing her speed to 25% the original if the debuff lands 6 times successfully. It can also confuse her with Supersonic, put her to sleep with Sing, and if it's about to take a critical/powerful hit (especially those stronger than it), it would be able to dodge it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Would it know to do that tho

Azurill is a baby Pokémon without a lot of experience. This is a fight where the longer it goes on the more of a chance it has to go against the sister but considering the initial AP gap and skill difference I think most times it doesn’t go off long enough for the Pokémon to make the right moves or get its chance based debuffs

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think we take Pokemon buffs and debuffs as literally lowering the opponent's stats by specific percentages, just like we ignore the rest of the numerical values featured in the game.

 

[Stillwinston]

Well Sister's use of flamers won't do much against Azurill at the very least. Debuffing Sister might not do much considering they can amp themselves via acts of faith which prolly cancels it out. Said acts of faith let them do other shit like stopping bullets matrix style too iirc so there's that.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I don't think we take Pokemon buffs and debuffs as literally lowering the opponent's stats by specific percentages, just like we ignore the rest of the numerical values featured in the game.

But that's why it has Huge Power which doubles its attack power (2 stages), why wouldn't you consider its multipliers?

Would it know to do that tho

Azurill is a baby Pokémon without a lot of experience.

Technically in the Mystery Dungeon games they are skilled even as babies. Hell, even a Riolu, another baby Pokémon, can be well trained enough to be skilled and know what it's doing, so Azurill should do just about the same.

But moving on, what does Sororitas lead with?

 

[Stillwinston]

Knowing them probably flamers, which isn't going to do much.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Alright, so if Azurill were to get close up to do physical attacks, it can use Sing to put her to sleep, Muddy Water to blind the Sister's eyesight (unless its Enhanced Senses extends to hearing/smell), tickle it which reduces both attack and defense, and even paralyze the Sister via Bounce or Body Slam. Plus, Aqua Jet fires fast enough to become invisible to get the first strike. Sister may have better skill thanks to better Martial Arts, but after Azurill reduces her attack, that would mean jackshit to it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That really comes down to how effective the debuffs are. Obviously flamer wont be very effective from the get go, but taking shots to try and get off sing isn’t exactly a good strategy still with an AP advantage, especially if the sister uses like Firearms for example. There’s also the existing buffs which can potentially counter the Debussy, so I think more times than not, Sister wins this. Azurill has a shot but 7/10 times sister wins

 

[Psychomaster35]

How strong are the buffs for Sister? Azurill's debuffs can reduce stats down to 25% and buffs can increase its own stats up to 4x. Don't forget Huge Power is passive at the getgo meaning its Attack is actually 1.2 tons.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I don't think we take Pokemon buffs and debuffs as literally lowering the opponent's stats by specific percentages, just like we ignore the rest of the numerical values featured in the game.

^

 

[Psychomaster35]

But that's why it has Huge Power which doubles its attack power (2 stages), why wouldn't you consider its multipliers?

^

 

[SamanPatou]

That might have slipped under the radar, a lot of our Pokèmon profiles contain outdated or incorrect stuff that we are trying to correct (at least those times the specific threads don't die out).

But we have a page dedicated to explain what game mechanics are, and we have rejected in-game stats since the dawn of time, I don't see why we would take buffs and debuffs literally since they work on the same basis.

 

[First_Witch]

Look at the thread go, with the current velocity, we might conclude round 4 before the week ends. Wishful thinking, i know

 

[Arceus0x]

Buffs and debuffs in pokemon are indeed something that works by percentage values, it is so in gamplay, in move descriptions and in canon.
In the descriptions it says specific numbers like doubles and halves, in the pokemon mystery dungeon games it says "doubled" "tripled" "quadrupled" with 4x being the limit. It works like that and the best argument i've heard against this is "muh game mechanics" which just doesn't work since everything says it isn't a gameplay mechanic and besides that there's no evidence that it doesn't boost a pokemon to much higher levels of power or nerf an opponents AP.

So yes, 6 usages of charm would indeed turn it into 0.18 tons

 

[SamanPatou]

Obviously the in-game description mentions the changes, it has to be explain you how the move works within the game itself.
And what would the rets of the "everything" be? What are the other canon sources?

Game mechanics are indeed a thing, especially in a RPG which works completely around numbers, and the same statistics afflicted by status moves are considered game mechanics, otherwise Slaking would sit higher than Groudon in the tiering system.

Anyway, this is an issue that afflicts indexing as a whole, I'd say it would require its own thread to decide the official take of the wiki about it, but I already know it's gonna take forever before reaching a conclusion.

 

[Arceus0x]

Obviously the in-game description mentions the changes, it has to be explain you how the move works within the game itself.
And what would the rets of the "everything" be? What are the other canon sources?

Game mechanics are indeed a thing, especially in a RPG which works completely around numbers, and the same statistics afflicted by status moves are considered game mechanics, otherwise Slaking would sit higher than Groudon in the tiering system.

Like i said, whenever you use any buffing move in Pokemon mystery dungeon you get a message saying "X's power doubled" and again "X's power tripled" and "X's power quadrupled". Then there's the anime where an example of it can be seen in the fight between Ash and Korrina where Ash's dragonite manages to overpower a trained Mega Lucario by using Dragon dance which makes it tough enough to pretty much one-shot Mienshao and defeat the Lucario in question. Note that we accept Mega evos as >2x base pokemon. So a relatively newly trained Dragonite managed to solo a gym leader level Mienshao and a hella trained Mega Lucario by spamming dragon dance, this shows that the boosts get you above 2x already. So in short, it is something that actually exists in games and anime and saying that it doesn't buff you 2x 3x and 4x is just nitpicking by saying that if something's potentially a game mechanic it is automatically unusable.

 

[Arceus0x]

Additionally in the manga's portrayal of the move "agility" pokemon begin moving so fast they create afterimages and their opponents barely manage to keep up with them

I think this proves my point even further

 

[SamanPatou]

Like i said, whenever you use any buffing move in Pokemon mystery dungeon you get a message saying "X's power doubled" and again "X's power tripled" and "X's power quadrupled".

That's the same thing tho, the game telling you what happened within the game itself and describing its mechanics, it isn't really a canon or a lore-related source.

Then there's the anime where an example of it can be seen in the fight between Ash and Korrina where Ash's dragonite manages to overpower a trained Mega Lucario by using Dragon dance which makes it tough enough to pretty much one-shot Mienshao and defeat the Lucario in question. Note that we accept Mega evos as >2x base pokemon. So a relatively newly trained Dragonite managed to solo a gym leader level Mienshao and a hella trained Mega Lucario by spamming dragon dance, this shows that the boosts get you above 2x already. So in short, it is something that actually exists in games and anime and saying that it doesn't buff you 2x 3x and 4x is just nitpicking by saying that if something's potentially a game mechanic it is automatically unusable.

Our 2x is based off megas beinf stronger than Marowak with a thick club, right?
I don't know how the thing itself was accepted in the first place, since the thick club also affects the very same in-game statistics we forbid from being used.
As of now, the wiki stance on Pokèmon just contradicts itself, which doesn't surprise me given all the problems Pokèmon has a whole here, but I'm going off topic.

Anyway, Dragonite just becomes strong enough to compete with Mega Lucario, and pretending the anime takes in account our made-up rules for scaling isn't a good argument.

Additionally in the manga's portrayal of the move "agility" pokemon begin moving so fast they create afterimages and their opponents barely manage to keep up with them

I think this proves my point even further

Not really, that's just an unquantifiable speed boost, we don't give 2X or else to all characters who just become invisible to others because of a speed boost.

 

[Lou_change]

Our 2x is based off megas beinf stronger than Marowak with a thick club, right?
I don't know how the thing itself was accepted in the first place, since the thick club also affects the very same in-game statistics we forbid from being used.

First part correct. And what do you mean because thick club affected stats we ignore it no we know it makes Cubone stronger and 2x is the only number we know a be question is why would we go with something else.

 

[Arceus0x]

That's the same thing tho, the game telling you what happened within the game itself and describing its mechanics, it isn't really a canon or a lore-related source.


Our 2x is based off megas beinf stronger than Marowak with a thick club, right?
I don't know how the thing itself was accepted in the first place, since the thick club also affects the very same in-game statistics we forbid from being used.
As of now, the wiki stance on Pokèmon just contradicts itself, which doesn't surprise me given all the problems Pokèmon has a whole here, but I'm going off topic.

Anyway, Dragonite just becomes strong enough to compete with Mega Lucario, and pretending the anime takes in account our made-up rules for scaling isn't a good argument.

Not really, that's just an unquantifiable speed boost, we don't give 2X or else to all characters who just become invisible to others because of a speed boost.

ah yes, the unqiantifiable "went from matching a guy in speed to running circles around him and leaving afterimages and nigh-blitzing him".
We see over and over again that statistic get a SEVERE increase in whatever it increases or a severe decrease in whatever attack they use.
In game stats is shiz like base stats and hp which are indeed contradictory to basically everything. This though contradicts nothing and it is supported by all of the showings.
It also works like that in PMD games, you can literally deliver 4 consecutive moves if you are at 4x the speed and you can move 4x the distance too before your opponent takes one step.
Like i said it also tells you that directly

https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/c/c7/Dragon_Dance_PMD_RB.png

It is supported by gameplay, anime, manga and game info. If this isn't enough then idk what is

 

[SamanPatou]

What I mean is that the Thick Club specifically affects the same stats we reject for scaling purposes,

 

[Arceus0x]

here's more on agility

literally double speed, gets out of there before the swampert can react. In mystery dungeon whenver you move everything moves and the combat is turn based. In this case we see two turns in a row without the opposing pokemon getting a chance to use a move

 

[SamanPatou]

ah yes, the unqiantifiable "went from matching a guy in speed to running circles around him and leaving afterimages and nigh-blitzing him".
We see over and over again that statistic get a SEVERE increase in whatever it increases or a severe decrease in whatever attack they use.

That's what we do for like, everything.
Characters blitzing others are considered much more faster, we don't pull out multipliers out of the hat just because of that.

In game stats is shiz like base stats and hp which are indeed contradictory to basically everything. This though contradicts nothing and it is supported by all of the showings.
It also works like that in PMD games, you can literally deliver 4 consecutive moves if you are at 4x the speed and you can move 4x the distance too before your opponent takes one step.
Like i said it also tells you that directly

https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/c/c7/Dragon_Dance_PMD_RB.png

This, once again, is the game telling you what's being affected in the game itself in terms of numbers, it has to tell you how the mechanics have changed.
And the other thing is still scaling off gameplay.

As of now, the only evidences of actual multipliers, instead of unspecified boosts (regardless of how big they are) are gameplay-related things.



Anyway, we're derailing this thread and treating it as if it was a CRT.
As of now, we reject in-game statistics, but at the same time we accept alterations to them as actual ways to scale characters. This is just a plain contradiction on how we handle the verse in general.

 

[Arceus0x]

anyways its 3AM here, smell ya tommorow, i ain't got energy to debate you rn

 

[Arceus0x]

As of now, we reject in-game statistics, but at the same time we accept alterations to them as actual ways to scale characters. This is just a plain contradiction on how we handle the verse in general.

It is an extremely dumb way of treating a verse when it literally writes out "double speed" for you and you go "unquantifiable". The most obvious solution to a problem is often the most reasonable and this applies damn well in this case. The game spells it out for you and you just ignore it and say that its ALLL game mechanics. Like remind me again, what's pokemon? Games. At this point this is ridiculous.

 

[Lou_change]

That's what we do for like, everything.
Characters blitzing others are considered much more faster, we don't pull out multipliers out of the hat just because of that.


This, once again, is the game telling you what's being affected in the game itself in terms of numbers, it has to tell you how the mechanics have changed.
And the other thing is still scaling off gameplay.

As of now, the only evidences of actual multipliers, instead of unspecified boosts (regardless of how big they are) are gameplay-related things.



Anyway, we're derailing this thread and treating it as if it was a CRT.
As of now, we reject in-game statistics, but at the same time we accept alterations to them as actual ways to scale characters. This is just a plain contradiction on how we handle the verse in general.

Yeah there is more evidence for the degree of the numbers connected to amps being canon then the stats themselves we aren't having scaling between Magikarp and Arceus which helix no.

 

[SamanPatou]

That's not how it works, otherwise we are going to use in-game numbers and mechanics for all verses and throw all the contradictions out of the window, better make Slaking High 6-A then and all megas above Arceus.

This isn't even an opinion, it's how the verse is currently handled here.

We reject game mechanics and in-game stats by default for all RPGs unless of very very strong evidences, which are different from a textboox saying your stats have changed.
And we do the same for Pokèmon, but at the same time some profiles scale to that very thing we reject.

The only way to solve the problem is making a CRT, which would take forever and would affect many profiles, for things I'm sure have already been extensively debated and I'm equally sure no one wants to debate.

But still. as of now we are in a loophole.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah there is more evidence for the degree of the numbers connected to amps being canon then the stats themselves we aren't having scaling between Magikarp and Arceus which helix no.

you say as you completely ignore like 99% of the evidence i just provided above that stats do matter

That's not how it works, otherwise we are going to use in-game numbers and mechanics for all verses and throw all the contradictions out of the window, better make Slaking High 6-A then and all megas above Arceus.

This isn't even an opinion, it's how the verse is currently handled here.

We reject game mechanics and in-game stats by default for all RPGs unless of very very strong evidences, which are different from a textboox saying your stats have changed.
And we do the same for Pokèmon, but at the same time some profiles scale to that very thing we reject.

The only way to solve the problem is making a CRT, which would take forever and would affect many profiles, for things I'm sure have already been extensively debated and I'm equally sure no one wants to debate.

But still. as of now we are in a loophole.

Base stats are indeed a gameplay mechanic only used for gameplay purposes. But i just gave you an f-ton of evidence to suggests that those descriptions and gameplay mechanics are actual mechanics that work in the anime manga and the games themselves. If you wanna continue closing your eyes and ears and going "Lalala gameplay mechanics lalala" then I guess i cannot stop you since you wouldn't hear that either. Im outta here.

 

[SamanPatou]

I've extensively explained myself, I don't see where I would have closed my eyes.

The evidences provided from anything that isn't a notification from the game or the gameplay itself is just an unquantifiable boost.
Was Dragonite buffed a lot by Dragon Dance? Yes. Does it make canon the fact that the in-game statistic is altered by 2X? No.

Anyway, all of this doesn't change the fact that we contradict ourselves between our policies and what's written on profiles, let alone the fact we don't have an official stance on this specific subject.

 

[First_Witch]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Okay so to try and get the thread back on track

Kinda seems like Sororitas is being downplayed here imo. She's not going to just stand there and do nothing, by nature she's practically a bloodlusted zealot that will do anything it takes to kill this xeno for the god emperor. Sure flamers won't be very effective but we can't forget that she's got other tools and those stupid acts of faith. Said stuff even stops projectiles matrix style right in front of them so they must be doing smth right. I'm not voting atm this is just to get things moving

 

[XVII]

honestly? my vote goes to azurill