Universe level Standards

[Hellbeast1]

What Agnaa said

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't get "in a way that scales to AP", isn't that how we do things already? Pretty sure 4Ds get ranked at least Universal+ anyway just like 5Ds get High Multiversal+, 6Ds get Low Complex Multiversal, etc. Unless I'm misunderstanding your question.

I still strongly oppose the idea of "transcending time = being above 4D" with the exception of verses where time is outright shown to be 4D and uses dimensional tiering but again, I'm trying to keep my argumentative-side on topic against my better judgment.

 

[Hellbeast1]

It's more in verses where dimensions are portrayed as infinities above that of the dimension preceding it and are actually a means of power (like Cthulhu or Doctor Who)

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera Not according to him

It also makes sense to me since low 2-C isn't defined as being 4-D like high 2-A is defined as being 5-D or low 1-C is defined as being 6-D.

 

[Sera_EX]

That's a hole in dimensional tiering then, but that's not my concern anyway.

0D = 11-C

1D = 11-B

2D = 11-A

3D = 10-C (baseline)

4D = Low 2-C (baseline)

5D = High 2-A

6D = Low 1-C

7D = 1-C

Etc.

That's how it's supposed to be via dimensional tiering. Again, it'll be different when Ultima's revisions go through but it will mostly remain the same regarding the tiers themselves.

 

[Andytrenom]

I mean, I'm pretty sure 4-D was always supposed to start at high 3-A. Baseline low 2-C is destroying/creating a space time continuum it has never been defined as anything other than that, so I don't think it was ever supposed to represent "being 4-D" like you suggest, if I am to be honest.

 

[PRIDEXEGO]

well mr mxy is 5d in supergirl show but still at 5-a or lower its all about feats and display of power more than anyother thing.

 

[Antvasima]

We are only supposed to use higher-dimensional statistic for characters that are not treated as far more limited than the tier would imply. Regrettably, that doesn't mean that everybody here has always followed this convention.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Andy

I don't know where you got that from. Putting the 4D less than universal in scale part aside, 4D starts at Low 2-C and ends at 2-A. Tier 2, with the exception of High 2-A, is 4D power by our standards. High 3-A is the peak of 3D and was alternatively for an insignificant degree of 4D compared to its Low 2-C counterpart but as it'd been mentioned and agreed upon even by veterans of the system, the alternative High 3-A definition does not make sense.

 

[DMB_1]

What about the creation of a "universe" though? Usually, universe-creation feats tend to be Low 2-C because of dimensions and stuff, as well as just creating a universe without a space-time is kind of... Odd.

 

[The_Causality]

@Andy
I don't know where you got that from. Putting the 4D less than universal in scale part aside, 4D starts at Low 2-C and ends at 2-A. Tier 2, with the exception of High 2-A, is 4D power by our standards. High 3-A is the peak of 3D and was alternatively for an insignificant degree of 4D compared to its Low 2-C counterpart but as it'd been mentioned and agreed upon even by veterans of the system, the alternative High 3-A definition does not make sense.

Funny enough, it exist a thing like that in Sailor Moon, an antagonist created a entire Space Time which has been called small universe and have enough size to have his own "galaxy" (we don't know if it's a galaxy or universe because of the form) inside it. He is currently "At least Galaxy level", i guess it's not High 3-A?

 

[Andytrenom]

I mean, limited 4-D is still 4-D and the definition for low 2-C is clearly creating a structure on the same level as a time space continuum not just having 4-D power.

But I don't care much what the exact standard is,

If the standard is "low 2-C starts at creating/destroying a time-space continuum" then my stance is to keep the tiers as they are but change the requirements

If the standard is "low 2-C starts at having 4-D power while meeting the requirements of higher D tiering" then my stance is to merge them.

 

[Antvasima]

The current standard is that Low 2-C is creating a universal space-time continuum.

 

[DMB_1]

What about the creation of a "universe" though? Usually, universe-creation feats tend to be Low 2-C because of dimensions and stuff, as well as just creating a universe without a space-time is kind of... Odd.

 

[Andytrenom]

If we decide to go by option E then I guess they will be low 2-C.

Creator dieties of a universe being Low 2-C is a sound enough assumption to me anyway.

 

[Sera_EX]

A spacetime continuum is four-dimensional (3+1D if you wanna get technical). So there is no reason why a 4D being with the apropriate feats would be anything less than Low 2-C. This is my issue with universal tiering, it's the only one of the bunch that's inconsistent and filled with cherry-picking. Tier 2 should just be 4D. It fits with the system. High 2-A geats a pass unless we merged make 5D Low 1-C and merge 6D to 1-C alongside 7-9D. I'm not too fond of that idea but if it gets the point across that Tier 2/Multiversal is supposed to be 4D.

For all that, it'd be better to just make High 3-A Universe level+ and make Tier 2 start at 2-C. Saves everyone the headache.

@Causality

Look at the Room of Spirit and Time. It's not Low 2-C because it's planet sized.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Andy

What would you rank "Limited 5D" as then? 2-A? You see the problem here, yes?

 

[BlackeJan]

ALL I know is that when someone destroys "everything" in the Universe but space is still there then that means characters r just 3-B instead of being 3-A even when someone is known to destroy a Universe

 

[Andytrenom]

That's like saying all 3-D beings should be planet level because a planet is 3-D, if he's 4-D but never shown to be powerful enough to destroy a time space continuum I don't see why he should be low 2-C

I'd actually prefer that honestly, even if I am not going to push for a change like that at this state.

 

[Sera_EX]

No, baseline 3D is 10-C, not 5-B. You're suggesting baseline 4D is High 3-A and I keep telling you it's not. If they have no feats, they need to be put at unknown, that goes for any character.

High 3-A's main description was infinite 3D, the alternative description about 4D is horrible and is getting removed. If being 4-D meant at baseline you are only High 3-A/Infinite 3D then every High 2-A needs to get downgraded to 2-A, because 5Ds at baseline would be considered only able to affect infinite 4D, and Low 1-C gets downgraded to High 2-A because 6Ds only affect infinite 5D, etc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ultima Reality made a thread basically saying that being "11-Dimensional" alone doesn't make you High 1-C and that there needs to be proof that it means dimensions in the correct sense of the word or that the degree of power is transcendent. But that's for another thread, but it's still on point about the 4-D stuff being removed from the High 3-A description as what Sera is trying to say.

 

[Andytrenom]

First of all, is there ever such a thing as "baseline 10-C"?

And second of all, no they won't because high 2-As description is explicitly being 5-D and Low 1-Cs description is explicitly being 6-D while low 2-Cs description is affecting a specific 4-D structure. Thinking that, because you can be 4-D and and rated lower than a tier not defined as being 4-D also means that you can be 5-D and rated lower than a tier defined as being 5-D just...it doesn't make sense.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know about Ultima's revision doo-dad. Anyway I'm just going to walk away from that as it's derailing the main topic which honestly while most people like Option E, the staff all agree on B, except DontTalk.

I personally can't stand it myself and prefer E for reasons I repeated multiple times but I don't feel like arguing anymore. Most of the opposition has mainly been "I don't think it should be" rather than detailing a legitimate reason other than having inflated results. I don't even care to know the actual reason anymore, if it even exists.

So, unless Assalt comes in to further elaborate on the neutron star business that Kepe briefly went over, I don't have anything more to say.

 

[Read_this_post]

Infinite 3D space is not a 4th spatial dimension in real life whilst time is a 4th temporal dimension. They are both practically the same thing. However, an infinite 3 dimensional being even though they could destroy all the physical matter in an infinite 3D space whilst still having distance remain. If someone were to destroy distance itself on this scale however, i do think it is possible they could be given a low 2-C rating. Also this logic would imply that anybody who gains an infinite multiplier would be higher dimensional.

In shorter terms. If someone destroys space and erases distance as well, it is likely a 4D feat. If someone destroys everything physical within that space, it is only 3D.

Also treating every universe level feat as low 2-C would create so many nlf profiles.

 

[Elizhaa]

Sera EX, to be fair, I agree with E.

 

[Andytrenom]

I feel like people throw the word NLF too much without seeing if it fits

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agreed, Sera worked hard enough on this. Let's please wrap this up soon so she can relax. Though, not the actual reasoning, but the circular arguments do need to be concluded. I know it's either E or B; and the project won't officially be carried out till the summertime I believe I'm still on board with Option E, but Option B would be the next best yes.

@Read this post, it's not every Universal feat being Low 2-C, simply that the standard for creator god feats among others is Low 2-C. Obviously, giant explosions and punches that destroy all celestial objects and mention nothing about Space time are still 3-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The whole premise of the "limited 4-D" aspect of High 3-A seems to come from the notion that 4-dimensional Beings are (uncountably) infinitely spatially larger and superior to 3-dimensional ones, regardless of their feats or showings of power, so by that logic even if a 4-D being never displays the power to destroy an entire Space-Time Continuum, they would still fall under a higher degree of High 3-A (which is the Tier for affecting infinite-sized structures).

If you ask me, even if you put my Revisions for the Tiering System aside, that idea is rendered moot by the Option B proposed in this Thread (Merging High 3-A and Low 2-C, since affecting or destroying an infinite spatial area is more relevant than affecting the temporal axis of a Universe), which going by Sera's comment up there has been agreed with by mostly everyone except DontTalk.

Hence, I am in total agreement of removing the "Limited 4-D" shit.

 

[Andytrenom]

@D DM No offence but I don't think "Someone worked hard and should relax" should ever be a reason for getting a thread concluded early. If there are arguments to be had then they should preferably be seen through before ending the thread.

 

[Elizhaa]

Read this post, I have being here for a while and I never saw Infinite 3-D beings; High 3-A - is usually for characters stated to be 4-D with no feat near universal or characters with Infinite Energy.

• High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.

"treating every universe level" - this is not done and a large oversimplification. Unless specified in the fiction, the correct definition of universe is including matter and space-time - true even the Japanese language.

By Ockham's Razor, if used accurately, assuming the universe is defined accurately than the feat with it would be Low 2-C

 

[Andytrenom]

@Ultima My issue is more with if a person is 4-D and is portrayed as infinitely superior to lower Dimensional beings, why should that automatically mean they are strong enough to destroy a timeline or a similar construct?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Semi-related, how do you achieve a rating of 3-A+?

 

[The_Causality]

@Ultima My issue is more with if a person is 4-D and is portrayed as infinitely superior to lower Dimensional beings, why should that automatically mean they are strong enough to destroy a timeline or a similar construct?

No i think

@Elizha there exist a bunch of Infinite 3-D on the site

 

[Andytrenom]

Semi-related, how do you achieve a rating of 3-A+?

You don't.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima My issue is more with if a person is 4-D and is portrayed as infinitely superior to lower Dimensional beings, why should that automatically mean they are strong enough to destroy a timeline or a similar construct?

I just said it, if we are going to start treating the act of affecting an infinite spatial area as more relevant than affecting the temporal axis of a Universe (i.e as a Low 2-C feat), then I don't see why a being that possesses uncountably infinitely larger spatial size than a 3-D being would be anything other than Low 2-C under that new standard.

 

[Elizhaa]

The Causality, I mean rating a chracters High 3-A because they are stated to be Infinite 3-D in the verse.

It is scaled of these factors, currently:

Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Ultima That does seem to make sense. At least right now.

 

[Sera_EX]

Semi-related, how do you achieve a rating of 3-A+?

Check the Attack Potency page. It should be noted that due the existence of Low 2-C as Universe level+, 3-A+ is still written as Universe level.

 

[The_Causality]

The Causality, I mean rating a chracters High 3-A because they are stated to be Infinite 3-D in the verse.

Yes, there is.

@Sera/Ultima I Guess if we fuse High 3-A & Low 2-C with the new standart , Characters who are High 3-A via a non-Universal space time feat will fall into which tier?

 

[Andytrenom]

There is no such thing such as 3-A+