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Undertale - Vulkins Lightning

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I'll "calm down" when people actually look at the shit that's been posted instead of just ignoring it and acting like the people who posted it never even brought it up. Having points ignored again and again and never even mentioned is a HUGE pet peeve.

Does not excuse claiming that people who disagree with you are incompetent and have no knowledge of the subject matter.

You can ask DT about this, but the only genuine question you'd have any good asking him as a calc member is going to be "is dirty lightning real cloud to ground lightning?", because as Lina and I have repeatedly brought up, dirty lightning is very, very clearly what is being produced.

No. Instead, I will give him the full detail, rather than your conclusion, so he can give an actual educated opinon that will be enough to solve this matter permanently.

I do admit that your arguments make a relatively large amount of sense, however.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
The speed of electricity =/= speed of CTG lightning @Azazoth
The amount of mass particles he (Vulkin) would have to carry is so big in amount that he would have to be a walking volcano. So the only options here are A Vulkin is a mega volcano or B magic @Lina
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The speed isn't the point. The point is that "it doesn't look like lightning" isn't a valid excuse when electricity is very clearly shown to look stylized during battle, especially around the exact same part of the game.

Vulkin is obviously magic, since all monsters are magic, and magic is considered part of the natural world and the sciences in Undertale. It's as natural as gravity. Magic existing doesn't change the fact that a walking volcano produces a pyrocumulus cloud which proceeds to fire off numerous bolts of dirty lightning, lining up with what it does in real life.
 
HIT IT said:
Does not excuse claiming that people who disagree with you are incompetent and have no knowledge of the subject matter.


No. Instead, I will give him the full detail, rather than your conclusion, so he can give an actual educated opinon that will be enough to solve this matter permanently.

I do admit that your arguments make a relatively large amount of sense, however.
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1. I never said people who disagree with me are incompetent. I said the majority of people who have vouched for the downgrade so far have either relatively limited knowledge of the series' laws and how it works (because playing or knowing about a game does not guarantee you will remember everything about the world's logic or laws), or have ignored points I have posted multiple times (such as the Mettaton point). Both of these seem to be pretty obviously true. That is why the opinion of someone who has extensive knowledge of the game's world is important.

2. It's not a conclusion. If you are asking him if he thinks the cloud is an actual pyrocumulus, that is irrelevant to his position as a calc member and creator of the lightning dodging page, and is simply asking him for his opinion on something. If you ask him a question about dirty lightning, you will get legitimate answers from him, since he's well versed in lightning feats, though that itself is unrelated to whether he thinks Vulkin created a pyrocumulus cloud or not.
 
HIT IT said:
I just want to show him the thread, so he can give his comments regarding whether this is a legit feat by himself.

Nothing more.
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I'm not saying you shouldn't show him the thread.

I'm saying you should look to him for definitive answers on lightning itself as opposed to a game he's never played (unless he's played since I last talked to him, though I don't know).
 
This really all this comes from a happy face in a cloud?

Wow

I mean, Is just a childish touch, is like to put a face in the sun, is... stills the sun
 
KaenDragneel123 said:
This really all this comes from a happy face in a cloud?

Wow

I mean, Is just a childish touch, is like to put a face in the sun, is... stills the sun
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I think SD is trying to say a real life volcanic storm is different from what vulkin is
 
@Grudge (Over your responce to my comment) thats one of the key things, and when it does hit the ground, it doesn't do it in groups.

Also, the lightning that does appear, takes quite a while (hours actually) til another bundle of lightning occurs again.

@Kaen Ah in regards to your comment, do you believe this magically produced cloud that has a smiley face is like any other cloud and its lightning feat should be considered legit?
 
SomebodyData said:
@Azzy excuse me if I'm wrong but one of your points is "Magic is something as natural as science, unlike most verses where it is unnatural"?
Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngqbH6Re9fo , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWE3rEpIuEY probably gonna have to double check with other dirty thunderstorms, but did anyone else notice the differences?
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Yes. One is the real footage, and the other is the representation of the real thing in a cartoony game style. That doesn't stop it from being a legitimate attack.
 
That's true, but not relevent. @Azzy the thing that stops it from being considered as legitmate dirty thunderstorm are the other factors of the lightning, pretty sure you can spot them, or read my responce to Grudge and Kaen.
 
@SD

All you said is it "takes quite a while" to appear, which is irrelevant to an attack produced by a sentient volcano which is constantly spouting ash and other particles (which is even shown in the video you linked), and that the bolts don't strike the ground at once, which again, is irrelevant to a simplified visual of what is clearly supposed to be "dirty lightning".
 
@Azzy

Uh, you do realize that a volcano would have to be constantly spouting ash and other particles to simply maintain it right?

Actually, if it was a simplified version it would be only one at a time, if anything, what we're shown is not simplified but rather, the exact opposite, we see it become more complex with the addition of more lightning.

And, that lightning that rarely touches the ground, the exact opposite of what we're shown.

And now add the fact that Vulkin lacks the amount of particles to produce even a glimer of a such a storm. Unless he's volcano sized.
 
I'd like to mention monsters can create matter on the fly. Such as Undyne's spears of Papyrus' bone shower. That's all I'm going to say.
 
SomebodyData said:
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Yes, and Vulkin is, again, a magical monster volcano. His exact size would not be relevant, in this case. That doesn't stop him from producing clouds which fire lightning.

Read above in the thread. I've addressed the "it doesn't look like real lightning" thing at least several times.
 
Yes @SD, I think this can be considered as real lightning

I mean, we considered magical lightning before (Well, real lightning coming from a magical cloud)
 
@Kaen ah I see then, so without the magical smile point, what about the points i made?

When did we do that? Just asking

@Lewd, ah so I'm assuming that the amount they produced is fairly about the same yes? Because the gap (if what I'm thinking is how much they made) would exponetially huge.\

@Azzy ah so basically he magically creates a by nature, would have to be a magical cloud that is scientifically creating lightning rather than a magic cloud that uses magic lightning? The former is your suggestion, I'm assuming.

My arguement wasn't that it doesn't look like real lightning. Mine is that it does not act like thew lightning you guys are describing. Saying that I'm using that arguement is not true at all.
 
SomebodyData said:
@Azzy ah so basically he magically creates a by nature, would have to be a magical cloud that is scientifically creating lightning rather than a magic cloud that uses magic lightning? The former is your suggestion, I'm assuming.

My arguement wasn't that it doesn't look like real lightning. Mine is that it does not act like thew lightning you guys are describing. Saying that I'm using that arguement is not true at all.
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The suggestion is that his size is irrelevant, since he is a volcano monster in a world where magic is a part of nature. Magic can make matter on the fly. But he doesn't make lightning that flies directly at you. He creates volcanic ash, which makes a pyrocumulus cloud, which then begins firing lightning strikes which you must dodge. The process of its creation is very important.

Those are two facets of the same argument, both of which are covered in the Mettaton example.
 
Actually the cloud you're describing is also made by ice and water particles (something that he lacks too, unless you wanna add ice and water creation to his abilities). In your process, the moment the cloud begins to be created, it becomes scientifically correct, right?

That way, nothing can disprove it's legitmacy. As for the Mettaton example, did you ever consider that perhaps it is a different attack? Espically when you consider you can't dodge his finger beam but you can dodge his "electricity". (Also dodging actual electicity is practically FTL in most cases as electricity is almost as fast as light. Just a little fun fact)
 
@SD

Do you think the volcano creates those ice and water particles, as well? Because by your logic, real volcanoes can't produce pyrocumulus clouds if they have to also simultaneously make ice and water as a requirement.

That's an incredibly flimsy excuse. If Frisk couldn't dodge his electricity at all, why would Mettaton not use it when actually trying to murder Frisk? Not to mention that the Frisk who can't dodge is an incredibly scared Frisk who only has options like "scream" and "cry", meaning they were incredibly low on Determination.

Also, no, electricity dodging is not FTL. You are describing electricity moving through copper wire or in very favorable/optimal conditions; not through air. There's a reason lightning dodging, even at incredibly close range, is considered to be in the MHS-MHS+ range and not Rel+.
 
@Azzy

no, not at all. The real volcanoes get it from their surrondings and etc. But that's enough strawman, answer the question.

Ah I think you don't get what I'm suggesting. Basically I was suggesting that your example was invalid since the finger beam and the electricity are obviously different. He doesn't use the beam to kill him rather for the show to get tension. This is further supported by the fact that as you state, this is a low determination Frisk, who would be killed by the electricity had he been firing them at him. In summary, I'm suggesting that finger laser beam is a different attack than his electricty due to how much weaker and how much of a different design it is.

A flimsy excuse? Name how you can possibly disprove this in any way shape or form in a theortical fashion of course.

Also, do you mean electricty when you said lightning dodging?
 
SomebodyData said:
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Uh, that's not a strawman, bro. Your exact words were "Actually the cloud you're describing is also made by ice and water particles (something that he lacks too, unless you wanna add ice and water creation to his abilities)". You suggested that Vulkin cannot make a pyrocumulus because he can't make ice crystals or water particles. Neither do real volcanoes. As you said, they get it from their surroundings. There's nothing stopping Vulkin from doing the same.

Except no. Mettaton specifically changes up the power of the attack depending on how wounded Frisk is. He will never actually kill him with it, because he doesn't want to kill him. However, there is absolutely nothing to suggest Mettaton miraculously lost this ability, and instead suggests that the simplified lightning bolt patterns are indeed meant to be electricity.

It's not about me disproving it, it's about you proving your assertion. You can't make an unfa If you think Frisk still wouldn't be able to dodge electricity in their fight with Mettaton EX, a fight in which Mettaton was specifically trying to kill them, then why wouldn't they use it? Because Mettaton's heart attack seems to imply use of electricity, which makes sense, since he explicitly showed the capability to use it not much earlier in the game. It is up to you to give a valid reason why, if Mettaton was explicitly shown to fight with electricity, he would choose not to use it while attempting to actually kill Frisk and only when he was messing around.

I mean both lightning and electricity, since the former is heavily related to the latter.
 
The thing is that the atmospheric conditions that creates said dirty thunderstorm is completely different, something that Vulkin never had (i assumed you knew that piece of info, since it's well no offence but its common knowledge that the conditions to create a storm, even a basic one, is very different) Unless he is practically covered by ice and snow, he can't create a normal storm, much less a dirty thunderstorm.

I never stated he lost it, rather, the finger beam is a weaker attack that was simply not used as he did not have need for a attack that wasn't needed. Also, the fight in which a different look of the attack was by then same body of Mettaton right?

I was actually talking about Vulkin, and how we generally need proof that an attack who's roots are from magic in a magic based verse are actually lightning speed.
 
SomebodyData said:
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Just so you know, a dirty thunderstorm is not formed the same way as a regular thunderstorm. Which is why, obviously, it's a "dirty thunderstorm" in the first place, since it is a storm with lightning but no rain. Also, probably important to note that while volcanoes obviously do not make water, eruptions do release water vapor.

No, it is a different body, since the only time you actually fight him and engage in a battle (in non-genocide) is against EX.

That's what the entire thread has been about. However, as I've pointed out, a verse being magic does not negate the fact that if there is an enemy based off a volcano which contains actual magma, spews volcanic ash, makes a pyrocumulus, and said pyrocumulus appears to fire dirty lightning which is not the direct creation of the monster, but instead the pyrocumulus he spawned, it's probably dirty lightning.
 
Correct, a dirty thunderstorm requires much more variables and the variables that it does share are much greater in amount as well. It and the fact that its rare makes it a hot debate among some scienctists to this day. Yep.

Well, perhaps its just no longer in his arsenal due to having a different body? Which also back to the likelyhood that the finger beam is just a weaker attack, when you consider the gap in the AP between both bodies.

While most of the arguements do seem to hinge on the magic factor, I still have to point out that there are still other arguements like the ones I spewed, primaryily how it behaves that I would argue still aren't exactly resolved, but put down by the Mettaton example, which suprisely contradict the fact that as even you stated, in your reasoning "said pryocumulus appears to fire dirty lightning". The fact that we can't apparently trust what we see, makes me (and many others) very suspicious of the stats. I would go further on this, but that's another topic.
 
SomebodyData said:
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Uh, it doesn't require that many, actually. At all. It's just that most volcanoes aren't...ya know, constantly erupting. Ever heard of Sakurajima? It's an active volcano which experiences them pretty regularly. Of course, the variables are also going to be much different for a sentient volcano which seems to want to create the cloud as opposed to an event happening with zero intervention whatsoever.

It's not like he's actually getting a new body. He's just changing the shape of his old one. Plus, again, the elctrical bolts he fires seem to suggest he still uses electrical attacks, and I don't know why they would suddenly be massively slower considering his power boost.

There is a difference between making an educated guess based on what we are clearly shown and making an assumption with no basis. Virtually everything about the creation of the cloud and lightning itself points to it being dirty lightning. We are not prohibited from making any educated guesses whatsoever and sticking solely to what is explicitly stated, especially when the intent of something seems very obvious, and much of the arguments against it are about the graphics themselves. There is far more suggesting it is creating a pyrocumulus and attacking with dirty lightning than pretty much any other "interpretation", and now the vast majority of arguments against it have boiled down to subjects which are essentially nitpicking and fail to take away any validity from the idea of it simply being lightning, which is the most logical thing to "assume" as it really doesn't require any obtuse thinking about the attack (in a pixelated indie-game pseudo-bullet hell screen) not looking exactly like lightning for purposes of the battle. The intent seems very, very clear to me, and pretty much everything else about this thread is just going around in circles which lead nowhere.

If there were evidence that strongly suggested the attack isn't supposed to be dirty lightning, that would be more of a discussion. However, instead it now seems to be trying to find tiny things wrong with the idea of it being dirty lightning, though out of everything, it being so still remains the simplest and least convoluted idea.
 
Oh yea btw, if anyone will make a point about Vulkin's lightning seemingly heading upwards it can actually be explained by a phenomena called "Gigantic Jet" in where lightning shoots vertically until stopped by other forces.
 
You have a point :|

Regardless, AYK I asked DT to just read through this thread and provide his opinion, considering that he is the leading authority on lightning dodging feats (he wrote the page). We will see if he provides comment, and then we can lock this thread.
 
The whole silly argument seems like its based on trying to invalidate a feat based on the art style used to draw it.

I believe someone mentioned it earlier that noone would be arguing against a sun or a cloud or a mountain in mario being a real thing just because they have smilies on them, but its a different story with undertale for some reason.
 
A Sword Dancer said:
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Frankly that's a bit of a strawman.

Since DT isn't responding, shall we just lock this thread?

There's another UT topic me and AMM want to talk about, and it's best to just move on from this one

Also

Azathoth, check your message wall

I've got a message for you
 
@Azzy Yeah, it kinda does compared to most storms. It's pretty rare outside of a few moreactie volcanoes, and those that do constantly have them (like Sakurajima) get modertate pieces of info on them. Like I said, dirty thunderstorms are still pretty much debated by a lot.

It didn't get slower actually. Frisk just got faster, remember the pretty big change in determination?

Yes there is a difference, but there's also a difference between making a educated guess and makking an educated guess with more details supporting it. Virtually everything about how the lightning acts pinpoints it not to be dirty lightning. I never said we can't make an educated guess, but that said, the best educated guess should be accepted, not the one with only 2 pieces of evidence. No, there is far more evidence that it is not a dirty thundercloud, however all of this evidence is labeled as "graphic probelms" by you yet the battle could be on maxed out graphics on a PC and still would remain because graphics =/= acting. The intent? yes, its going in circles, because you really haven't debunked the evidence I had given out (key word: I) other than "well mettaton did something with how his electricity works and while most would consider it a different attack I consider it the same because reasons like electricity doesn't change even though attacks can" Intent? While I do look back and see some rather iffy "debunks" and I'll admit that, your side really isn't doing anything better.

As a matter of fact, why not list out the evidence on both sides in a clean and readable manner, you list out your side of the arguement and I'll list mine, we'll go from there because this thread is getting rather crazy.

"nitpicking" name how showing how the lightning behaves nothing like it's original concept outide of the amount and where it comes from is nitpicking?

Simple and less convoluted idea =/= correct, although by that logic, magic would be the correct answer
 
@HIT

"the vast majority of arguments against it have boiled down to subjects which are essentially nitpicking and fail to take away any validity from the idea of it simply being lightning, which is the most logical thing to "assume" as it really doesn't require any obtuse thinking about the attack (in a pixelated indie-game pseudo-bullet hell screen) not looking exactly like lightning for purposes of the battle."

Basically the he's saying that the arguements stem from the fact that the creator can't replicate perfect lightning graphics
 
SomebodyData said:
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It's pretty rare compared to most other storms because it's caused by volcanoes, not because when a volcano erupts the conditions are incredibly hard to meet. They are rare, but not as rare as you are making them seem. I also have no idea why you keep saying they're "debated", when we have documented proof of them and know exactly why they happen.

Yes, Frisk got faster. Which would allow them to actually dodge the electricity. That is the point I have been trying to make.

Most of your evidence comes from things I have already addressed. You repeatedly state it does not act like dirty lightning, while both the way it's created and the way it acts are pretty similar to dirty lightning. The evidence you have given for "virtually everything" pointing to it not being real lightning really does seem to boil down to simplistic sprites not looking exactly like dirty lightning, despite the fact that the intent is very clear. I've already explained why just going "magiclol" isn't a more valid argument, and it certainly doesn't take away from something which is obviously meant to be lightning. You say there is more evidence for it not being dirty lightning, yet so far, you have not really provided anything which contradicts it being so.

"all of this evidence is labeled as "graphic probelms" by you yet the battle could be on maxed out graphics on a PC and still would remain because graphics =/= acting" I have no idea what you're talking about, here. You know this is about the graphic design of the game itself, which is still going to remain exactly the same on a higher end PC, right? For the subject of Mettaton, you have not really given an answer aside from "maybe it's a different attack not using electricity", which still does not address the problem of if that's the case, why he wouldn't use much, much faster attacks when actually trying to kill Frisk.

I would rather not. The majority of the thread can be summed up in the last several posts, and listing more stuff we each disagree with will simply lead to more needless arguments over the same thing that has already been covered.

Once again, you keep saying it behaves nothing like real lightning, but outside of intentional design choices and graphic limitations, I really do not see any examples of this. It coming from a pyrocumulus, branching out without directly targeting Frisk, and the bolt patterns would definitely seem to suggest it's dirty lightning. You keep saying it doesn't behave like real lightning, yet its creation and the attack itself say otherwise, unless you are arguing that the pixelated sprites do not behave exactly like lightning, which considering this is a pixelated indie game and real life is...real life, is a moot point.

Uh, yes. Simplest and least convoluted answer with the most amount of evidence behind it is generally considered to be correct. You could just say "magiclol", but that doesn't stop it from being dirty lightning, nor does it really shut down any of the points pointing to it being so.

This is now literally the same several arguments being discussed an unnecessary amount of times, and I am very close to just closing the thread, because absolutely nothing new has been added in a while, and do not see the point in repeating everything over and over again. Each post is just like the post before except using different wording or slightly differing variations of the topics at hand.
 
How about we wait 6 hours, and if noone makes an original argument in that time we just lock it and move on to other content revision.
 
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